Catholic issues

[Marymog]

I used that word as I am not a decider of Popes and/or Ministers of God. Enoch calls the current Pope an imposter and TheeFaith, excludes all of the designated Popes following Pius XII from being proper Popes. He never really made his reasons clear to me.

I was a faithful Catholic under Pius XII and John XXIII until 1961. Years ago [after my own disconnection from Catholicism but before knowing much from the Bible itself], I read a book about Pius XII and his involvement with the Germans during WWII. That book gave me no reason to come against him. I read no others. I know even less about his successor.

I do not believe in the Apostolic succession as believed and taught by Catholics. When I was a Catholic, I never questioned the authority of the Pope, but I knew nothing at the time about the Bible nor much of anything more about God than what the nuns taught us or what I heard from the Bible readings and explanations by the priests. They did not cover the whole Bible ever while I was with them. I understand that that changed later under Vatican II, but I was gone by that time although still nominally a Catholic.

When I left my home parish after high school graduation in 1961, I tried another parish, but never became a part. I tried again to connect through a priest when on active duty in Viet Nam [1964-1965] without success.

In 1976 I came back to God, but it was not through Catholicism.

Soooo two members (Enoch and theefaith) of a christian internet forum question the validity of the current pope and that is your reason for saying supposedly?? Interesting....

What is Apostolic Succession to you since you don't believe in the Apostolic succession as believed and taught by The Catholic Church?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

What is it with your constant attack? Let me explain something to you. There is no doctrinal purity test to get to heaven. Time to give your self-righteousness a break.


One thing I miss about the Mass is how it ends by offering each other the sign of peace and going in peace.

As far as doctrines go, I actually don’t keep a list for every denomination. One I do tend to agree with is the doctrine of purgatory.

How is it an attack? The only thing I said was that you don't follow the doctrines of your church. Is that not true? How is that an attack???
Give me a righteous break Wrangler. You are Wrong again. Here is Scriptural evidence of doctrinal purity:

Titus 1:9 9He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Titus 2:1 1You, however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine.

2 Timothy 4:2-4 2Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage-with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

1 Timothy 4:16 16Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

1 Timothy 1:10 10for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers-and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine

BTW... can you show me in Scripture where it says we are NOT to hold to the doctrine of The Church??

Offering each other the sign of peace and going in peace is not Church doctrine....

 

[Wrangler]

How is it an attack?

It is an attack. Pray on how.

BTW... can you show me in Scripture where it says we are NOT to hold to the doctrine of The Church??

There is no ‘the church’. But I think you are confusing congregation with denomination.

Offering each other the sign of peace and going in peace is not Church doctrine....

Maybe not a doctrine but it’s a Catholic tradition I still admire. (Here is another example of you attacking)

 

[amadeus]

Soooo two members (Enoch and theefaith) of a christian internet forum question the validity of the current pope and that is your reason for saying supposedly?? Interesting....

I was trying to respond to them in language they accepted or understood. Not an easy with regard to something I do not accept as valid.

What is Apostolic Succession to you since you don't believe in the Apostolic succession as believed and taught by The Catholic Church?

To me it is not correct. Perhaps it is simply a way that men have constructed in imitation of what existed under the law God gave to Moses with a man, Aaron and his sons as a human high priest.

I am not saying that this is why the mistake of the Apostolic Succession is believed, but rather that it could be. To me it is part of someone's mistake.

God makes no mistakes, but men do. I know you believe that. You think almost certainly in this that it is me making the mistake.

You disagree with that, but you believe in the Apostolic Succession, and I do not.

I am not trying to convince you, but simply trying to answer your questions.

 

[tabletalk]

The office of The Pope is a product of Apostolic Succession.

No, he is not, according to Jerome:

“The presbyter is the same as the bishop, and before parties had been raised up in religion by the provocations of Satan, the churches were governed by the Senate of the presbyters. But as each one sought to appropriate to himself those whom he had baptized, instead of leading them to Christ, it was appointed that one of the presbyters, elected by his colleagues, should be set over all the others, and have chief supervision over the general well-being of the community. . . Without doubt it is the duty of the presbyters to bear in mind that by the discipline of the Church they are subordinated to him who has been given them as their head, but it is fitting that the bishops, on their side, do not forget that if they are set over the presbyters, it is the result of tradition, and not by the fact of a particular institution by the Lord.”

—Jerome, Commentary on Titus 1:7

 

[Marymog]

No, he is not, according to Jerome:

“The presbyter is the same as the bishop, and before parties had been raised up in religion by the provocations of Satan, the churches were governed by the Senate of the presbyters. But as each one sought to appropriate to himself those whom he had baptized, instead of leading them to Christ, it was appointed that one of the presbyters, elected by his colleagues, should be set over all the others, and have chief supervision over the general well-being of the community. . . Without doubt it is the duty of the presbyters to bear in mind that by the discipline of the Church they are subordinated to him who has been given them as their head, but it is fitting that the bishops, on their side, do not forget that if they are set over the presbyters, it is the result of tradition, and not by the fact of a particular institution by the Lord.”

—Jerome, Commentary on Titus 1:7

Thanks tabletalk.

I didn't know you were a fan of St. Jerome? Since you are, surely you have read ALL of his writings? Probably not since you left out this:

” But you say, the Church was founded upon Peter: although elsewhere the same is attributed to all the Apostles, and they all receive the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the strength of the Church depends upon them all alike, yet one among the twelve is chosen so that when a head has been appointed, there may be no occasion for schism.” (Book 1.26)

“I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter…though your greatness terrifies me, your kindness attracts me. From the priest I demand the safe-keeping of the Victim, from the shepherd the protection due to the sheep. Away with all that is overweening; let the state of Roman majesty withdraw. My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross. As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built! This is the house where alone the paschal lamb can be rightly eaten… If you think fit enact a decree; and then I shall not hesitate to speak of three hypostases…. (Letter 15)

"Since the East, dashed against itself by the accustomed fury of its peoples, is tearing piecemeal the undivided tunic of Christ, woven from the top throughout, and foxes are destroying the vine of Christ, so that among the broken cisterns which have no water it is hard to know where is the sealed fountain and the garden enclosed, I have considered that I ought to consult the Chair of Peter and the faith praised by the mouth of the Apostle [Rom 1:8],


Sooooooo your PARTIAL and OUT OF CONTEXT quote of Jerome does not say what you have been taught by other men...Or perhaps you taught yourself?

But, since you love Jerome so much, CERTAINLY you agree with him that Mary was a perpetual virgin?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

I was trying to respond to them in language they accepted or understood. Not an easy with regard to something I do not accept as valid.

To me it is not correct. Perhaps it is simply a way that men have constructed in imitation of what existed under the law God gave to Moses with a man, Aaron and his sons as a human high priest.

I am not saying that this is why the mistake of the Apostolic Succession is believed, but rather that it could be. To me it is part of someone's mistake.

God makes no mistakes, but men do. I know you believe that. You think almost certainly in this that it is me making the mistake.

You disagree with that, but you believe in the Apostolic Succession, and I do not.

I am not trying to convince you, but simply trying to answer your questions.

Thanks Amadeus.

Paul wrote to a student of his (Timithy): You then, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus; 2 and what you have heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will be able to teach others as well. Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you through prophecy with the laying on of hands by the council of elders.

Timothy, who was ordained by the elders of The Church and who was taught by the Apostle Paul, was to teach other men what he was taught by Paul. The elders that ordained Timothy were probably students of the Apostles. How is that a "mistake for Apostolic Succession"? That's 3 generations of successful Apostolic teaching. When did that Apostolic Succession in teaching end? After the men who Timothy taught died? Help me out on your theory.....

In Acts 1 they voted on a successor to the Apostle Judas. They used Scripture to justify their decision: “For it is written in the book of Psalms, ‘Let his homestead become desolate, and let there be no one to live in it’; Did the Apostles make a "mistake" when they chose a successor to Judas?

In Titus 1:5 the Apostle Paul explains how his apostolic ministry would be carried on by Christian leaders who succeeded and survived him. He designates Titus to serve as Bishop of Crete, directing him to appoint elders and bishops. Did Paul make a "mistake" when he appointed Titus?

When did this succession of appointments from the Apostles to the next guy to the next guy to the next guy etc etc end?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

It is an attack. Pray on how.

If you think that you have been attacked then you must have some very strong feelings about it. Can you just explain those feelings so I can better understand how I attacked you? Otherwise your accusation is baseless......

 

[Marymog]

There is no ‘the church’. But I think you are confusing congregation with denomination.

Sooooo I asked you if you could "show me in Scripture....". You didn't, couldn't, can't etc. because there is no Scripture to back up your theory.

 

[Marymog]

Maybe not a doctrine but it’s a Catholic tradition I still admire. (Here is another example of you attacking)

Hmmmmm....sooooo YOU say that the sign of peace during Mass is a doctrine that you miss. I point out that THE FACT that it's NOT a doctrine and that is considered an attack? Pointing out FACTS = ATTACK'S

I think I'm done with you wrangler......Thank you for your time! :)

 

[JMyrick]

Catholics make God look bad. Catholic is roman Catholic. The roman empire was born through war. Catholics also did crusades even though God said "thou shall not kill." The popes also look evil because God did that.

 

[Wrangler]

Sooooo I asked you if you could "show me in Scripture....". You didn't, couldn't, can't etc. because there is no Scripture to back up your theory.

I have showed you in Scripture repeatedly. You do not have eyes to see or ears to hear.

 

[Wrangler]

Hmmmmm....sooooo YOU say that the sign of peace during Mass is a doctrine that you miss. I point out that THE FACT that it's NOT a doctrine and that is considered an attack? Pointing out FACTS = ATTACK'S

This is an example of what I mean about attacking. You are so busy 'splainin how I'm wrong, you can't take a compliment!

I like the part of the Mass where they offer the sign of peace. I know it's not doctrine. It's a part of your God forsaken 11th century institution that I like.

I mentioned purgatory. Where are all your posts giving me accolades for properly identifying Catholic doctrine? Nowhere. It's just attack, attack, attack. We are done.

 

[Marymog]

..... We are done.

I already said that kiddo.......Rember?

Post #170: I think I'm done with you wrangler..

 

[Marymog]

I mentioned purgatory. Where are all your posts giving me accolades for properly identifying Catholic doctrine? Nowhere. It's just attack, attack, attack. We are done.

You did mention purgatory....Thank you.

 

[tabletalk]

Thanks tabletalk.

I didn't know you were a fan of St. Jerome? Since you are, surely you have read ALL of his writings? Probably not since you left out this:

” But you say, the Church was founded upon Peter: although elsewhere the same is attributed to all the Apostles, and they all receive the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the strength of the Church depends upon them all alike, yet one among the twelve is chosen so that when a head has been appointed, there may be no occasion for schism.” (Book 1.26)

“I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter…though your greatness terrifies me, your kindness attracts me. From the priest I demand the safe-keeping of the Victim, from the shepherd the protection due to the sheep. Away with all that is overweening; let the state of Roman majesty withdraw. My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross. As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built! This is the house where alone the paschal lamb can be rightly eaten… If you think fit enact a decree; and then I shall not hesitate to speak of three hypostases…. (Letter 15)

"Since the East, dashed against itself by the accustomed fury of its peoples, is tearing piecemeal the undivided tunic of Christ, woven from the top throughout, and foxes are destroying the vine of Christ, so that among the broken cisterns which have no water it is hard to know where is the sealed fountain and the garden enclosed, I have considered that I ought to consult the Chair of Peter and the faith praised by the mouth of the Apostle [Rom 1:8],


Sooooooo your PARTIAL and OUT OF CONTEXT quote of Jerome does not say what you have been taught by other men...Or perhaps you taught yourself?

But, since you love Jerome so much, CERTAINLY you agree with him that Mary was a perpetual virgin?

Curious Mary

So, Jerome was a goofball.
But, he did say it rightly about the office of Bishop: not a valid office, only came about because of practicality and tradition; and now it is historical.
The early church let the world enter into its polity structure, and now the Church of God is stuck with worthless churches claiming to be Christian.

 

[Marymog]

So, Jerome was a goofball.
But, he did say it rightly about the office of Bishop: not a valid office, only came about because of practicality and tradition; and now it is historical.
The early church let the world enter into its polity structure, and now the Church of God is stuck with worthless churches claiming to be Christian.

Thanks.

I thinks its fair to say that Jerome believes that bishops and presbyters are one in the same office and that traditionally the reason why some bishops were elevated above others was to avoid schism. I think Jerome also recognizes what Scripture says about tradition: 2 Thessalonians 2:15

Since you are so keen on using Jerome for a defense to prove your point that the office of Bishop is based on tradition, not Scripture, then certainly you wouldn't ignore his comments on the divine foundation and perpetual nature of the Papacy? Or was he being silly when he said that about the Papacy? ;)

I agree with you that there are some worthless churches claiming to be Christian....

 

[tabletalk]

Thanks.

I thinks its fair to say that Jerome believes that bishops and presbyters are one in the same office and that traditionally the reason why some bishops were elevated above others was to avoid schism. I think Jerome also recognizes what Scripture says about tradition: 2 Thessalonians 2:15

Since you are so keen on using Jerome for a defense to prove your point that the office of Bishop is based on tradition, not Scripture, then certainly you wouldn't ignore his comments on the divine foundation and perpetual nature of the Papacy? Or was he being silly when he said that about the Papacy? ;)

I agree with you that there are some worthless churches claiming to be Christian....

I will 'ignore his comments' on other issues.
I use the teachings of church fathers, etc. if they seem to agree with the Scriptures; whether they are considered 'saints' in your religion, or people like Calvin or Luther.
It is good of you to reply to my comments, but there is not much more to discuss.
Take care.

 

[Taken]

QUESTION:
Who is the Pope and why should anyone pay attention to what he has to say?

CATHOLIC ANSWER:
Christ the king!

BEYOND DISTURBING!!!

 

[Taken]

But, since you love Jerome so much, CERTAINLY you agree with him that Mary was a perpetual virgin?

Curious Mary

Why do the Catholic Church’s claim, teach and preach Mary was a perpetual virgin?