Catholic issues

[theefaith]

So you can't answer what I asked. i.e. Is he really a physical gate or vine just as he become physical bread and wine? And also what do you think 'figurative' means.

Jn 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

 

[Pearl]

Jn 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Sorry but you didn't answer what I asked - all you have done is quote scripture. Using your own words not those of the bible or catechism I would like you to explain please.

 

[theefaith]

Sorry but you didn't answer what I asked - all you have done is quote scripture. Using your own words not those of the bible or catechism I would like you to explain please.

Christ established the new covenant in his own blood, the sacrifice of Christ begins in the upper room then to the garden being completed with his death on the cross, Christians in the new covenant share in this sacrifice by his priesthood and by receiving Him in His real presence body and blood in holy communion

 

[Grailhunter]

I know that Catholics believe mere bread and wine turn miraculously into the actual body and blood of Jesus but what do you make of this passage?

John 16:25
“Though I have been speaking figuratively.

This comes straight after the Passover supper. So I believe it is fair to say that when Jesus told the 12 to drink of his blood and eat of his body it was figurative speech just like when he said he was the gate, or when he said he was the true vine.

Not just to you but those that read this....
John 16:24-26
24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete. 25 “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. 26 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf.

Maybe He was speaking figuratively when He told them that they could ask for anything in His name? I don't think so.
Was Christ speaking figuratively when He said....“I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. John 6:35.....figuratively or just kidding? How do we know if He was just kidding? How do we know if he was speaking a parable? How do we know that belief in Him is just symbolic? Would He lie?

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” Matthew 26:26
for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. Matthew 26:28

Note the word "is" Is LOL does not mean, kind of like....Is does not mean symbolic.....Is does not mean figurative. Now a person can use the word "is" and be deceiving....lying! Was Christ lying? I mean He is the Son of God...a God....Can He lie? Would He lie?

How do we know when He is not talking a parable....or figuratively. Well I will give you a hint....When He says Truly, truly....eyes, ears, and brain should be flipped on! LOL note the truly's in the next set of verses.

John 6:53-58 53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

Lying? Kidding? Figurative? Symbolic? Does it mean anything when Christ said Truly? Should we find all the verses where they start out saying Truly and mark them off as just kidding or figuratively....symbolic...lying?
If the Bread and Wine ritual is not divine, if in truth the Bread and Wine ritual is symbolic, we have to right Christ off as a liar!

Now Christ knew the importance of this ritual. LOL But that does not mean we know the importance of this ritual. He knew that what He was describing was sacrilegious to the Jews....He knew it would be startling! He risked everything because they had to understand and it had to happen.

The conversation He was having with the others....stopped! His own Apostles objected....His disciples walked away and never walked with Him again....but he did not laugh and say, I am sorry, I was just kidding! Come back! No, He turned to His Apostles and said, You do not want to go away also, do you? It was a go or no go choice. He was saying, if you do not accept this....walk away! None of this would have happened if Christ was making a figurative or symbolic meaning....and then He performed it at the Last supper....says this is my blood and this is my body. Very few truths are this well defined...and performed in the Bible.

So important was this ritual, in that the truth was....it did not matter if the Apostles or His disciples had got that far....if they did not perform this ritual and believe in it....it was the spiritual end for them.

47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. John 6:47

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. John 6:53... What would it be like to be saved and have no life in you?

John 6:56-57
56 The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood remains in Me, and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, the one who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
What would it be like to be saved but not to remain in Christ or He in you?

John 6:54
54 The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
What would it be like to be saved and not raised on that last day?
Try it! Let us know!

Now everyone there with Christ was shocked and offended. He risked everything. He would not do that if He was just kidding.

Like I have said before, as far as understanding the meaning of scriptures...it helps when a statement is made and then in the storyline it happens....well the Bread and Wine ritual occurred at the Last Supper.

Same thing goes for Baptism....the urgency for water Baptism can be seen in the storyline.

Christianity is all about belief. The power of faith.... The belief in Christ......
If you do not believe in Christ...do not waist your time....have a blast.
If you do not believe that Baptism is a miracle....then it is just getting wet in front of people. No benefit to you.
If you do not believe that the Bread and Wine ritual, is a miracle and provides life and and unity with Christ ....it is just a cracker and kool-aid. And you do not abide in Christ or He in you....no life in you...and He will not raise you on that last day......That is it, Christ was telling the truth....and if He was not....the whole thing is a mess. No hope.

Be good and do good

 

[Philip James]

If you do not believe that Baptism is a miracle....then it is just getting wet in front of people. No benefit to you.
If you do not believe that the Bread and Wine ritual, is a miracle and provides life and and unity with Christ ....it is just a cracker and kool-aid.

as they make a pretense of religion but deny its power. Reject them

Pax et Bonum!

 

[Grailhunter]

as they make a pretense of religion but deny its power. Reject them

Pax et Bonum!

You better know it!

 

[amadeus]

Christ established the new covenant in his own blood, the sacrifice of Christ begins in the upper room then to the garden being completed with his death on the cross, Christians in the new covenant share in this sacrifice by his priesthood and by receiving Him in His real presence body and blood in holy communion

What is the blood of Jesus? How is the blood of Christ different than the blood of human beings?

 

[Grailhunter]

What is the blood of Jesus? How is the blood of Christ different than the blood of human beings?

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

Best guess....something to do with Him being a God. LOL

 

[charity]

I know that Catholics believe mere bread and wine turn miraculously into the actual body and blood of Jesus but what do you make of this passage?

John 16:25
“Though I have been speaking figuratively.

This comes straight after the Passover supper. So I believe it is fair to say that when Jesus told the 12 to drink of his blood and eat of his body it was figurative speech just like when he said he was the gate, or when he said he was the true vine.

'It is the spirit that quickeneth;
the flesh profiteth nothing:
the words that I speak unto you,
they are spirit, and they are life'.
Joh 6:63

Hello @Pearl

Thank you for sharing John 16:25, for, as you say, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself thereby declares the words spoken formerly to have been figurative.

'Eating and drinking' of Him, is simply actively believing what He says.

With love in Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[amadeus]

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

Best guess....something to do with Him being a God. LOL

This was addressed to Theefaith, but my point was simply the red blood of men versus the blood, which we are to drink as per John 6:53. The red blood of the man Jesus was shed completely on Calvary so that man was dead. Without blood there is no life. But then consider the other Blood of men was lost by our first carnal parents when they disobeyed and put outside of the Garden of Eden. I believe this blood, the quickening or Life-giving Spirit, is mentioned as being white rather than red.

Here is a copy of some responses I made on this forum a couple of years ago on this subject...

The Spirit is the Blood of Jesus. In the OT especially in the Book of Leviticus it is made clear that life is in the blood, but that is speaking of carnal animals [and people] having physical life. It was a type or shadow of the real Life which was given up in Eden, but brought back by Jesus. Jesus came as a physical man with physical blood and he shed that blood, but he also shed something that no physical man had, the Spirit. Men had spirit, but it was corrupted with no real Life in it. Men with only the red kind of blood of the body were effectively dead... like Esau.

Jesus came to change that. He did not do it with by sharing with us the red blood of his also corruptible [corruptible, but NOT corrupted] body of flesh. That was his sacrifice. Jesus also opened the Way for a gift. The real Life lost in the Garden was and is the Spirit.

"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
Revelation 7:14,

So, the Blood of the Lamb [the Holy Spirit received] makes no one red, but rather White.
Consider Esau [rough] who was called Edom [red] because he ate of the red pottage made by Jacob in exchange for his birthright.

Did not Jesus bring us something better than red pottage, a gift, an open Door? How about robes made white by his Blood? How does this relate to these verses?

"But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion." Joel 3:20-21

In the natural we might believe that this was a sorting out of the mixed bloodlines of the natural Israelites [see Ezra 9:2-3 where Ezra was so upset, he pulled out his own beard.] This may be right, but can we not not also see here a type or shadow of the double mindedness of Christian believers? What is Zion?

One Hebrew derivation of that word means "dry or barren land". That is what every one of us were before we received Life from Jesus. Spiritually, we effectively had no Blood [Spirit] in us. Red blood gives no one Spiritual Life, We were dead. Jesus said, "Let the dead bury their dead" [Matt 8:22]. Apostle Paul writes

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

Just think of all the wonderful old hymns that would then be obsolete...

If the "blood of Jesus " makes demons tremble I will stick with the old AKJV.
It has served me well and lasted me 50+ years...

@Miss Hepburn
(has been a member on this forum, but not seen for quite a while)

Miss Hepburn said: What churches talk about ''being washed in the blood"...Baptists? I dunno.

That one is a very old song, which I learned in the assembly [UPC] where I received the gift of the Holy Spirit in 1976. It was written much earlier than that long before there was a UPC, Elisha A. Hoffman, pub.1878

 

[Grailhunter]

This was addressed to Theefaith, but my point was simply the red blood of men versus the blood, which we are to drink as per John 6:53. The red blood of the man Jesus was shed completely on Calvary so that man was dead. Without blood there is no life. But then consider the other Blood of men was lost by our first carnal parents when they disobeyed and put outside of the Garden of Eden. I believe this blood, the quickening or Life-giving Spirit, is mentioned as being white rather than red.

Here is a copy of some responses I made on this forum a couple of years ago on this subject...

The Spirit is the Blood of Jesus. In the OT especially in the Book of Leviticus it is made clear that life is in the blood, but that is speaking of carnal animals [and people] having physical life. It was a type or shadow of the real Life which was given up in Eden, but brought back by Jesus. Jesus came as a physical man with physical blood and he shed that blood, but he also shed something that no physical man had, the Spirit. Men had spirit, but it was corrupted with no real Life in it. Men with only the red kind of blood of the body were effectively dead... like Esau.

Jesus came to change that. He did not do it with by sharing with us the red blood of his also corruptible [corruptible, but NOT corrupted] body of flesh. That was his sacrifice. Jesus also opened the Way for a gift. The real Life lost in the Garden was and is the Spirit.

"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
Revelation 7:14,

So, the Blood of the Lamb [the Holy Spirit received] makes no one red, but rather White.
Consider Esau [rough] who was called Edom [red] because he ate of the red pottage made by Jacob in exchange for his birthright.

Did not Jesus bring us something better than red pottage, a gift, an open Door? How about robes made white by his Blood? How does this relate to these verses?

"But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion." Joel 3:20-21

In the natural we might believe that this was a sorting out of the mixed bloodlines of the natural Israelites [see Ezra 9:2-3 where Ezra was so upset, he pulled out his own beard.] This may be right, but can we not not also see here a type or shadow of the double mindedness of Christian believers? What is Zion?

One Hebrew derivation of that word means "dry or barren land". That is what every one of us were before we received Life from Jesus. Spiritually, we effectively had no Blood [Spirit] in us. Red blood gives no one Spiritual Life, We were dead. Jesus said, "Let the dead bury their dead" [Matt 8:22]. Apostle Paul writes

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

Just think of all the wonderful old hymns that would then be obsolete...

If the "blood of Jesus " makes demons tremble I will stick with the old AKJV.
It has served me well and lasted me 50+ years...

@Miss Hepburn
(has been a member on this forum, but not seen for quite a while)

Miss Hepburn said: What churches talk about ''being washed in the blood"...Baptists? I dunno.

That one is a very old song, which I learned in the assembly [UPC] where I received the gift of the Holy Spirit in 1976. It was written much earlier than that long before there was a UPC, Elisha A. Hoffman, pub.1878

A lot of stuff there....not sure of your point.

My post still stands as truth. Not from me....but from Christ

 

[Behold]

Only Christ has authority to found the church on Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18-19

The body of Christ...(is the Church).
Notice its not the "body of Peter".
There is a reason.

Think on that.

 

[amadeus]

A lot of stuff there....not sure of your point.

My post still stands as truth. Not from me....but from Christ

And perhaps most of it is... the truth that is.

I will mention that I do not consume bread from grain or wine from naturally grown grapes at all. I stopped that many years ago.

I consume daily the Word of the God, that is, the flesh [Bread as in the written Bible] quickened [brought to Life] by the Holy Spirit [the white blood]. For some it may raise questions on what people name as the Trinity as well as on what the Bible is or is not and other things I will not go into now.

I am still writing now but I have literally been awake all night. I do have an insomnia problem but now I have been awake continuously since about 4PM yesterday. I suspect it is related a lung biopsy done yesterday which took most of the morning. If you have further questions, I may be unavailable for a while if I should be able to get to sleep. It is 8:16AM now.

Nice talking with you again.

 

[theefaith]

The body of Christ...(is the Church).
Notice its not the "body of Peter".
There is a reason.

Think on that.

And Christ is the founder!

but the church is built on the apostles eph 2:20

 

[Grailhunter]

I consume daily the Word of the God, that is, the flesh [Bread as in the written Bible] quickened [brought to Life] by the Holy Spirit [the white blood]. For some it may raise questions on what people name as the Trinity as well as on what the Bible is or is not and other things I will not go into now.

Do you really think that His disciples would have objected and then never walked with Him again over reading the Word of God?
The reaction of everyone present makes it clear that what Christ said was shocking....and the use of Truly Truly makes it clear that it is not figurative...or symbolic. Christ was not trying to be confusing because the ramifications were eternal.

After hearing what He said, His disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
And then they walked away, never to walk with Him again.
Is this reaction because of reading the Word of God?

 

[amadeus]

Do you really think that His disciples would have objected and then never walked with Him again over reading the Word of God?
The reaction of everyone present makes it clear that what Christ said was shocking....and the use of Truly Truly makes it clear that it is not figurative...or symbolic. Christ was not trying to be confusing because the ramifications were eternal.

After hearing what He said, His disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
And then they walked away, never to walk with Him again.
Is this reaction because of reading the Word of God?

I believe that for the most part they did not understand what he meant. They misunderstood and Jesus purposely as when speaking in parables did not explain, seeing then, who would stay with him anyway. Peter answered with the following words, and I presume that some others including the ones named apostles agreed with him:

"...Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God." John 6:68-69

The few believed without really understanding. That is faith!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And Christ is the founder!

but the church is built on the apostles eph 2:20

amen. not peter. but ALL OF THEM. And they are the foundation stones. Everyone since then is part of the walls.. We are all part of the body, though many parts. one body

 

[Marymog]

Subjective to you because you are unable to read/see his mind or heart. Not, however, subjective to him if God provided the response.

huh....

 

[Marymog]

You presume you know that I taught myself. You may believe that, but you do not know it. Through scripture you proved nothing. All you did was quote verses.

Ok......Soooooo when you quote verses from Scripture you are proving something but when I quote Scripture it proves nothing.....

 

[theefaith]

amen. not peter. but ALL OF THEM. And they are the foundation stones. Everyone since then is part of the walls.. We are all part of the body, though many parts. one body

there must be a leader
Peter has the jurisdictional authority of the keys and is head on earth

we must be subject to the king thru his ministers