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Ferris Bueller

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Luther and Calvin baptized infants, so an "adult only baptism" is a post reformist invention.
Just because Luther and others were instrumental in setting the people of God free from the errors of the Catholic church doesn't mean they possessed the complete truth. Nobody does.

That time when you could go to someone in leadership and they had all the answers is long gone. That's why I say it's you, your Bible, the discernment of the Holy Spirit, and fellowship with like-minded God seekers at this time in church history. We're all responsible for ourselves and what we do with the bits and pieces of truth we gather from all the various sources of knowledge in the world today.
 
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Pearl

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First, you slam infant baptism, then you provide a verse that supports infant baptism. Luther and Calvin baptized infants, so an "adult only baptism" is a post reformist invention. Then you insult us with the charge of "false doctrines", and don't justify this insult. You contradict yourself using scripture. You make no sense.
Wrong sir - that verse does not say anything about infant baptism. Telling children they are born again is what is hindering them from coming to Jesus.
 

Pearl

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Just because Luther and others were instrumental in setting the people of God free from the errors of the Catholic church doesn't mean they possessed the complete truth. Nobody does.

That time when you could go to someone in leadership and they had all the answers is long gone. That's why I say it's you, your Bible, the discernment of the Holy Spirit, and fellowship with like-minded God seekers at this time in church history. We're all responsible for ourselves and what we do with the bits and pieces of truth we gather from all the various sources of knowledge in the world today.
Well said. And the Holy Spirit will lead us and give us understanding.
John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
 

Illuminator

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A former Catholic speaking, why all the rituals and costumes and statues in the Catholic church, surely Jesus and the Apostles or even the first Pope St.Peter did not wear these garments?
Because it was illegal. Liturgical vestments (not "costumes")was a later development as a fulfilment of Judaism.
Description-of-High-priest-garments-.jpg


Prayers are said during vesting.

8e4540a4595f5d2e0b40424ea1084dcf.jpg


Jesus did not abolish ritual, He perfected them.
 

Illuminator

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Wrong sir - that verse does not say anything about infant baptism. Telling children they are born again is what is hindering them from coming to Jesus.
So you cover up the early reformers beliefs with this nonsense, and accuse Catholicism of "false doctrines"???
Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 – these texts show the circumcision of eight-day old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant – Col 2:11-12 – however, baptism is the new “circumcision” for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant. To the contrary, He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults.

Job 14:1-4 – man that is born of woman is full of trouble and unclean. Baptism is required for all human beings because of our sinful human nature.

Psalm 51:5 – we are conceived in the iniquity of sin. This shows the necessity of baptism from conception.

Matt. 18:2-5 – Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. So why would children be excluded from baptism?

Matt 19:14 – Jesus clearly says the kingdom of heaven also belongs to children. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism.

Mark 10:14 – Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. Jesus says nothing about being too young to come into the kingdom of God.

Mark 16:16 – Jesus says to the crowd, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved.” But in reference to the same people, Jesus immediately follows with “He who does not believe will be condemned.” This demonstrates that one can be baptized and still not be a believer. This disproves the Protestant argument that one must be a believer to be baptized. There is nothing in the Bible about a “believer’s baptism.”

Luke 18:15 – Jesus says, “Let the children come to me.” The people brought infants to Jesus that he might touch them. This demonstrates that the receipt of grace is not dependent upon the age of reason.

Acts 2:38 – Peter says to the multitude, “Repent and be baptized..” Protestants use this verse to prove one must be a believer (not an infant) to be baptized. But the Greek translation literally says, “If you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized” (“Metanoesate kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.”) This, contrary to what Protestants argue, actually proves that babies are baptized based on their parents’ faith. This is confirmed in the next verse.

Acts 2:39 – Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults. “Those far off” refers to those who were at their “homes” (primarily infants and children). God’s covenant family includes children. The word “children” that Peter used comes from the Greek word “teknon” which also includes infants.

Luke 1:59 – this proves that “teknon” includes infants. Here, John as a “teknon” (infant) was circumcised. See also Acts 21:21 which uses “teknon” for eight-day old babies. So baptism is for infants as well as adults.

Acts 10:47-48 – Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius, which generally included infants and young children. There is not one word in Scripture about baptism being limited to adults.

Acts 16:15 – Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word “household” comes from the Greek word “oikos” which is a household that includes infants and children.
 

Illuminator

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As I have noted many times, among Protestants there are five camps regarding baptism. They just can’t figure out the truth of this matter. Luther (as well as some “high” Anglicans and Methodists) held to (infant) baptismal regeneration, Calvin to symbolic infant baptism. Then there is the position of Baptists and some others: adult “believers” symbolic baptism. Yet others believe in adult baptismal regeneration (e.g., Disciples of Christ and Church[es] of Christ). A fifth position is denying the necessity of baptism altogether (even though it is clearly a command in the New Testament). This is held by Quakers and The Salvation Army. Yet all are "sola scripturists" and hopelessly divided on the matter. I will go with 2000 years of consistent teaching.
John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: Proofs for Baptismal Regeneration?
 
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Eternally Grateful

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So you cover up the early reformers beliefs with this nonsense, and accuse Catholicism of "false doctrines"???
Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 – these texts show the circumcision of eight-day old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant – Col 2:11-12 – however, baptism is the new “circumcision” for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant. To the contrary, He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults.

Job 14:1-4 – man that is born of woman is full of trouble and unclean. Baptism is required for all human beings because of our sinful human nature.

Psalm 51:5 – we are conceived in the iniquity of sin. This shows the necessity of baptism from conception.

Matt. 18:2-5 – Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. So why would children be excluded from baptism?

Matt 19:14 – Jesus clearly says the kingdom of heaven also belongs to children. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism.

Mark 10:14 – Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. Jesus says nothing about being too young to come into the kingdom of God.

Mark 16:16 – Jesus says to the crowd, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved.” But in reference to the same people, Jesus immediately follows with “He who does not believe will be condemned.” This demonstrates that one can be baptized and still not be a believer. This disproves the Protestant argument that one must be a believer to be baptized. There is nothing in the Bible about a “believer’s baptism.”

Luke 18:15 – Jesus says, “Let the children come to me.” The people brought infants to Jesus that he might touch them. This demonstrates that the receipt of grace is not dependent upon the age of reason.

Acts 2:38 – Peter says to the multitude, “Repent and be baptized..” Protestants use this verse to prove one must be a believer (not an infant) to be baptized. But the Greek translation literally says, “If you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized” (“Metanoesate kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.”) This, contrary to what Protestants argue, actually proves that babies are baptized based on their parents’ faith. This is confirmed in the next verse.

Acts 2:39 – Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults. “Those far off” refers to those who were at their “homes” (primarily infants and children). God’s covenant family includes children. The word “children” that Peter used comes from the Greek word “teknon” which also includes infants.

Luke 1:59 – this proves that “teknon” includes infants. Here, John as a “teknon” (infant) was circumcised. See also Acts 21:21 which uses “teknon” for eight-day old babies. So baptism is for infants as well as adults.

Acts 10:47-48 – Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius, which generally included infants and young children. There is not one word in Scripture about baptism being limited to adults.

Acts 16:15 – Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word “household” comes from the Greek word “oikos” which is a household that includes infants and children.
Your stuck o arguing semantics. You attempt to put all Protestants under one roof.

Who cares what other so called Protestants believe. Most of us only care what the Bible says.

Circumcision was a right given to the Jews as a means to be part of the covenant of abraham.

Baptism has 2 purposes

1. The washing of regeneration and renal of the HS (spirit baptism, which saved)
2. Water baptism, a testimony of faith and cgood conscious towards God

Infant baptism is not in scripture. It does not matter if some Protestants do it also. It is not biblical.

While in Texas, I did have my children SPRINKLED by the priest,, But that was for my sake not my kids, I was making a testimony to the congregation and God I would raise my kids up in the knowledge of God
 

Eternally Grateful

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As I have noted many times, among Protestants there are five camps regarding baptism. They just can’t figure out the truth of this matter. Luther (as well as some “high” Anglicans and Methodists) held to (infant) baptismal regeneration, Calvin to symbolic infant baptism. Then there is the position of Baptists and some others: adult “believers” symbolic baptism. Yet others believe in adult baptismal regeneration (e.g., Disciples of Christ and Church[es] of Christ). A fifth position is denying the necessity of baptism altogether (even though it is clearly a command in the New Testament). This is held by Quakers and The Salvation Army. Yet all are "sola scripturists" and hopelessly divided on the matter. I will go with 2000 years of consistent teaching.
John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: Proofs for Baptismal Regeneration?
John 3 has NOTHING to do with baptism. If it did, Jesus would have mentioned it. This is the most twisted verse from Protestants and catholics alike in a feeble attempt to promise to works based Gospel

If John 3 spoke of water baptism, Jesus would have said plainly. Believe and be baptised, is how you are born again, He did not. He said belief

he also said whoever believed is not condemned, whoever does not believe is condemned already.

Again NO MENTION OF BAPTISN

Titus 3: 5 is the HS doing the work of God. How can you say water baptism is referenced, when water baptism IS A WORK OF righteousness?

Just further proof of the means of works for salvation, and thus rejecting the mercy of God to promote and a church self. And boast in your works and your church

Not of works lest anyone should BOAST..
 

Pearl

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As I have noted many times, among Protestants there are five camps regarding baptism. They just can’t figure out the truth of this matter. Luther (as well as some “high” Anglicans and Methodists) held to (infant) baptismal regeneration, Calvin to symbolic infant baptism. Then there is the position of Baptists and some others: adult “believers” symbolic baptism. Yet others believe in adult baptismal regeneration (e.g., Disciples of Christ and Church[es] of Christ). A fifth position is denying the necessity of baptism altogether (even though it is clearly a command in the New Testament). This is held by Quakers and The Salvation Army. Yet all are "sola scripturists" and hopelessly divided on the matter. I will go with 2000 years of consistent teaching.
John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: Proofs for Baptismal Regeneration?
Who do you call protestants? As far as I am aware it was those who broke away from the Catholic church after Henry 8th broke from Rome, thus forming the Anglican church. Does it also include all those who are not Catholic, like Baptists and Pentecostals and Methodists and new Testament churches etc?
 

Philip James

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That invitation is only open to those who would become Catholic?

What of Protestants?

Hello Oceanprayers,

The invitation is open to all men, everywhere, from every nation, tribe and tongue.

To be untied with Christ in the feast is to also be united with all our brothers and sisters from all places and times who participate in the Feast.

The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?


Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

Thus, the whole Church, everywhere (the very definition of catholic) is united as the bride in union with the Groom.

"For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."


This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.

Pax et Bonum!
 

Pearl

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Thus, the whole Church, everywhere (the very definition of catholic) is united as the bride in union with the Groom.
So not just the Catholic church then as has been said by some?
 

Philip James

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Well said. And the Holy Spirit will lead us and give us understanding.
John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Hello Pearl,

Interesting that you recognize this, yet reject the notion that the Holy Spirit has indeed been leading the Church into all Truth and preserving it from error..

So then, if we disagree with what the whole Church everywhere taught and believed in 100 AD.. 200 Ad... 300 AD... what spirit are we listening to?
Does the Truth change? Does the Holy Spirit contradict Himself?

Pax et Bonum!
 

Pearl

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Interesting that you recognize this, yet reject the notion that the Holy Spirit has indeed been leading the Church into all Truth and preserving it from error..
Now that depends on what you define as church. To some it is the Catholic church only. To me the Church consist of all true followers of Jesus worldwide.
 

Oceanprayers

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Not sure if this answers or not.

There are quit a few ex catholics in my school. It is the mindset.

They are trained that only they have the truth, They are trained that no one should try to interpret the word that only they have been given the truth and we should not try to interpret ourself. They are trained that everyone is agains them, even the term Protestant, is a term that is used to denote that the only reason people go to another denomination is because they are protesting the true church. Then of course as you see, you have the history excuse, as to how only they have a line of succession to peter.

We saw the same thing with Israel. And how they acted. And defended their leaders and their religion even to the point of death. It was so bad even when the messiah came, they would not listen, but kept defending their own religion. Because in their view. It was given by God through the priests and the prophets.
Wasn't it the current Pope who seems so Liberal to some, who reiterated the Catholic church doctrine that says the only true church and way to heaven is the Catholic church?
 

Marymog

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You're not listening. What I need is the HOLY SPIRIT to tell me if what I'm hearing is the truth or not. What I'm hearing can come from many sources - you, my neighbor, my pastor, the person sitting next to me on the bus, someone in a Bible study, a YouTube sermon... But it is the Holy Spirit that teaches me what of all that I'm hearing is the truth and what is not. That's a lifetime study. And the purer one's heart is, and the more willing they are to learn, the more it occurs in them. Most, though, it seems, get stuck in a single denominational vein of thought, and sometimes never even know there is other legitimate thought and insight and revelation about a theological issue.
I'm glad you feel like you are being led by the Holy Spirit into the Truth. Many men have thought the same thing but yet they all disagree with each other. So either the Holy Spirit is confused or those men, including yourself, are confused.