Can you serve God in a false religion?

[Raeneske]

That is historical nonesense.



Who do you think Jesus is - the Archangel Michael?

It's not historical nonsense. Simply by listening to Jesus's words, you can prove that this is not a church of God. "By their FRUITS ye shall know them." So, let's not forget Vatican War Crimes, The barbaric torture during the dark ages, the enormous amount of sex scandals, Popes calling evolution sound, calling verses in the Bible uninspired, etc. etc. etc.

By their fruits.

 

[aspen]

i am a Catholic Christian. i believe you can see it in my actions if you knew me in person.

 

[Episkopos]

I don't know about actually serving God but you can be righteous and not a Christian. Of course I'm speaking of the Old Testament type of righteousness...not the eternal righteousness of Christ.

 

[Raeneske]

i am a Catholic Christian. i believe you can see it in my actions if you knew me in person.

Oh, don't get me wrong. There are Catholics that ARE Christians. That is absolutely undeniable. Just like there are many true Christians in many fallen churches around the world. No denomination name never saved anyone though. It is their fruits. Do they lead a holy life? Are they listening to the truth, and obeying it to the best of their ability? Are they removing themselves from the sinfulness of the world that tries to attach its' deadly grip on them? Do they watch their mouths, do they refuse to lie, are they honest to the best of their ability? These are Christians, and ye know that they are by their fruits, not by their profession.

But the Roman Catholic Church has a very bloody, not Christ-like in the least bit, history. By their FRUITS, ye shall know them. That churches fruits, do not testify that the Saviour is in that church. As a matter of fact, it was written that the time would come that they would kick you out of the church, and kill you, and think that they're actually doing God a service. Problem is, Scripture says the reason they do this, is because they actually DO NOT know Jesus or His Father.

Catholicism is always boasting to Protestants about church history. With that kind of history, I would be glad if the denomination I'm in started 5 minutes ago. BY THEIR FRUITS, ye shall know them. Not by their profession.

 

[Mungo]

It's not historical nonsense. Simply by listening to Jesus's words, you can prove that this is not a church of God. "By their FRUITS ye shall know them." So, let's not forget Vatican War Crimes, The barbaric torture during the dark ages, the enormous amount of sex scandals, Popes calling evolution sound, calling verses in the Bible uninspired, etc. etc. etc.

By their fruits.

If it is not historical nonensense then show me the evidence that "Constantine, the first Christian emperor of Rome started the Catholic church, not Jesus."

Diverting off into other topics just indicates to me that you have no such evidence.

But the Roman Catholic Church has a very bloody, not Christ-like in the least bit, history. By their FRUITS, ye shall know them. That churches fruits, do not testify that the Saviour is in that church. As a matter of fact, it was written that the time would come that they would kick you out of the church, and kill you, and think that they're actually doing God a service. Problem is, Scripture says the reason they do this, is because they actually DO NOT know Jesus or His Father.

Protestantism has a bloody history as well. By their fruits you shall know them.

 

[Raeneske]

If it is not historical nonensense then show me the evidence that "Constantine, the first Christian emperor of Rome started the Catholic church, not Jesus."

Diverting off into other topics just indicates to me that you have no such evidence.



Protestantism has a bloody history as well. By their fruits you shall know them.

I didn't say Constantine started the Catholic Church. According to my best knowledge, the Catholic Church did not arrive on scene until AFTER the fall of Rome. And then their fallen pieces decided to come together for a Universal Religious and Political Entity. There is plenty of evidence of that fact though. It's just simply that evidence you either A) Refuse to search yourself, or B ) Refuse to believe when someone shows you. Thus, this road of argument can and will prove fruitless. I simply hope you listen to my words. By their FRUITS ye shall know them.

You don't even deny how bloody the past is of Rome. And your only response is "Protestantism does it too." Sorry. Protestants didn't go around starting holy wars with multiple religions for disobeying their faith. Protestants did spend over 1000 years murdering people for not believing in their faith. Protestants didn't put the Bible on the index of forbidden books. Protestants didn't come up with ways to torture souls until admitted to coming into the faith. Have Protestants done wrong? Yes, and I agree they have. I'm no bigot. But shrugging off the MASSIVE SCALE of deaths, murders, tortures, etc. done by the Roman Catholic Church is worse than trying to deny the Holocaust ever happened. Protestants... no, not just Protestants, but... no other institution in the entire planet compares to the monstrous deeds done by the Catholic Church. And saying "You did them too" is not valid. Nor is it a defense. No other church persecuted like this church. By their FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM.

 

[Mungo]

I didn't say Constantine started the Catholic Church. According to my best knowledge, the Catholic Church did not arrive on scene until AFTER the fall of Rome. And then their fallen pieces decided to come together for a Universal Religious and Political Entity. There is plenty of evidence of that fact though. It's just simply that evidence you either A) Refuse to search yourself, or B ) Refuse to believe when someone shows you. Thus, this road of argument can and will prove fruitless. I simply hope you listen to my words. By their FRUITS ye shall know them.

You don't even deny how bloody the past is of Rome. And your only response is "Protestantism does it too." Sorry. Protestants didn't go around starting holy wars with multiple religions for disobeying their faith. Protestants did spend over 1000 years murdering people for not believing in their faith. Protestants didn't put the Bible on the index of forbidden books. Protestants didn't come up with ways to torture souls until admitted to coming into the faith. Have Protestants done wrong? Yes, and I agree they have. I'm no bigot. But shrugging off the MASSIVE SCALE of deaths, murders, tortures, etc. done by the Roman Catholic Church is worse than trying to deny the Holocaust ever happened. Protestants... no, not just Protestants, but... no other institution in the entire planet compares to the monstrous deeds done by the Catholic Church. And saying "You did them too" is not valid. Nor is it a defense. No other church persecuted like this church. By their FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM.

Domenic said:- "Constantine, the first Christian emperor of Rome started the Catholic church, not Jesus."

To which I said:- "That is historical nonesense."

You responded to that:- "It's not historical nonsense."

So what do you mean "I didn't say Constantine started the Catholic Church"? Did you just shoot your mouth off without thinking?

The rest of your post is just a diversion.

 

[Raeneske]

Domenic said:- "Constantine, the first Christian emperor of Rome started the Catholic church, not Jesus."

To which I said:- "That is historical nonesense."

You responded to that:- "It's not historical nonsense."

So what do you mean "I didn't say Constantine started the Catholic Church"? Did you just shoot your mouth off without thinking?

The rest of your post is just a diversion.

I guess I misunderstood his post is all, sorry about that. Yeah, I really didn't see that for what it said. Re-looking at it, does not make any sense on my part. Again, sorry about that.

As for the diversion part - I wouldn't say that. I'd say deviation, because it is a deviation from what was originally being talking about. But then again, you responded to my answer about Catholicism having a very bloody past. And again, nothing to be denied. If you are honestly listening, you know that what I posted was true about the Catholic Church - well that's actually if you DO know. But this churches bloody past cannot be hidden, and nor will it be. By their fruits Mungo. By their fruts.

 

[Mungo]

I guess I misunderstood his post is all, sorry about that. Yeah, I really didn't see that for what it said. Re-looking at it, does not make any sense on my part. Again, sorry about that.

As for the diversion part - I wouldn't say that. I'd say deviation, because it is a deviation from what was originally being talking about. But then again, you responded to my answer about Catholicism having a very bloody past. And again, nothing to be denied. If you are honestly listening, you know that what I posted was true about the Catholic Church - well that's actually if you DO know. But this churches bloody past cannot be hidden, and nor will it be. By their fruits Mungo. By their fruts.

There are huge exaggerations by Protestants concerning deaths. Protestants slaughtered thousands of Catholics. Trading atrocities is not constructive.

As to putting the Bible on the index of forbidden books that is a Protestant myth. You supply no evidence for such a claim. Nor did the Catholic Church forbid translating the Bible into the English. Another Protestant myth that is trotted out. There were some instances of condemnation of corrupt translations produced by heretics, just as now we wouldn't want people reading corrupt translations such as the Jehovah's Witnesses NWT!

Did you know that the Catholic Douay-Rheims translation into English was published before the KJV?

 

[Raeneske]

There are huge exaggerations by Protestants concerning deaths. Protestants slaughtered thousands of Catholics. Trading atrocities is not constructive.

As to putting the Bible on the index of forbidden books that is a Protestant myth. You supply no evidence for such a claim. Nor did the Catholic Church forbid translating the Bible into the English. Another Protestant myth that is trotted out. There were some instances of condemnation of corrupt translations produced by heretics, just as now we wouldn't want people reading corrupt translations such as the Jehovah's Witnesses NWT!

Did you know that the Catholic Douay-Rheims translation into English was published before the KJV?

There are some numbers which don't sit well with me. But does that change the fact that this church is responsible for the slaughter of millions, more than any other institution on this planet? Nope. I estimate at least 150 million. This is far lower than the maximum number that I have heard. By their fruits.

I said nothing about the translation of the Bible into English. The index of forbidden books has been proven time and time again. But it is dismissed, time and time again.


"Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should
not be permitted to have the books of the Old or
New Testament; we most strictly forbid their having
any translation of these books."
- The Church Council of Toulouse 1229 AD
Source: Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe,
Scolar Press, London, England
copyright 1980 by Edward Peters,
ISBN 0-85967-621-8, pp. 194-195"

Be a fruit inspector.

 

[domenic]

Domenic said:- "Constantine, the first Christian emperor of Rome started the Catholic church, not Jesus."

To which I said:- "That is historical nonesense."

You responded to that:- "It's not historical nonsense."

So what do you mean "I didn't say Constantine started the Catholic Church"? Did you just shoot your mouth off without thinking?

The rest of your post is just a diversion.

Yes I said that...Constantine made Rome a Christian nation...based in ROME....WHAT RELIGION IS BASED IN ROME TODAY?
What other major religion was, or is based in ROME...CATHOLICS.

Lets expand on the point. All other Christian Religions came from that which started in Rome. (Catholic...sic)
It's like a tree. The many different branches shoot of the same trunk. Can a single tree bear different fruit? or is all the fruit bad?
"The tree that is bearing bad fruit will be cast into the fire(destroyed.) Babylon the Great, (false religions) will be destroyed by the Nations over night. God says, "Get out of them MY PEOPLE."

 

[Mungo]

There are some numbers which don't sit well with me. But does that change the fact that this church is responsible for the slaughter of millions, more than any other institution on this planet? Nope. I estimate at least 150 million. This is far lower than the maximum number that I have heard. By their fruits.

That is a ridiculous number. There is no evidence for such an exaggerated claim.

"Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should
not be permitted to have the books of the Old or
New Testament; we most strictly forbid their having
any translation of these books."
- The Church Council of Toulouse 1229 AD
Source: Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe,
Scolar Press, London, England
copyright 1980 by Edward Peters,
ISBN 0-85967-621-8, pp. 194-195"

Be a fruit inspector.

The Index Librorum Prohibitorum (English: List of Prohibited Books) was a list of publications prohibited by the Catholic Church. A first version (the Pauline Index) was promulgated by Pope Paul IV in 1559 (Wikipedia)

Therefore the Council of Toulouse did not put anything on the Index of Forbidden Books because it was not promulgated until 330 years after the Council.

The Catholic Encyclopaedia (under Scripture) says:
“After the death of Innocent III, the Synod of Toulouse directed in 1229 its fourteenth canon against the misuse of Sacred Scripture on the part of the Cathari: "prohibemus, ne libros Veteris et Novi Testamenti laicis permittatur habere" (Helfele, "Concilgesch", Freiburg, 1863, V, 875)”
The texts this canon were referring to were the doctored versions of the Bible produced by the Albigentian/Manacheans to support their heretical teaching. The Council did not forbid the reading and study of authentic copies of the Bible.

The Council of Toulouse was a local Council dealing with a local problem.

Yes I said that...Constantine made Rome a Christian nation...based in ROME....WHAT RELIGION IS BASED IN ROME TODAY?
What other major religion was, or is based in ROME...CATHOLICS.
Lets expand on the point. All other Christian Religions came from that which started in Rome. (Catholic...sic)
It's like a tree. The many different branches shoot of the same trunk. Can a single tree bear different fruit? or is all the fruit bad?
"The tree that is bearing bad fruit will be cast into the fire(destroyed.) Babylon the Great, (false religions) will be destroyed by the Nations over night. God says, "Get out of them MY PEOPLE."

Constantine put Christianity on the same legal basis as paganism. The Edict of Milan (313) proclaimed toleration for all religions. He did not make Christianity the state religion which is what you are implying. That did not happen until 380AD under Emperor Theodosius in the East and Emperor Gratian in the West.

The Church has been based in Rome from the time of St. Peter. It was nothing to do with Constantine.

Irenaeus:
"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric…..To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Soter having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth. (Against Heresies 3:3:3[A.D. 189])

It seems to be reckoned by many that Constantine himself did not become a Christian until near his death.

It's also worth bearing mind that Constantine shifted to his new capital - Constantinople - in the East in 330 AD.

 

[ChurchAuthority]

Constantine, the first Christian emperor of Rome started the Catholic church, not Jesus. Jesus is not God, he is the son of God. You sound like you're Catholic.

Please show me the document, decree or declaration issued by Constantine that established the Catholic Church. Surely, you can provide this if it's true.
The fact is that you can't because it's an anti-Catholic fairytale.

Unfortunately for people like you - we have the writings of the Early Church to back up our claims that the Catholic Church goes all the way back to the Apostles. We also have the research of eminent PROTESTANT historians like J.N.D. Kelly, who documents the Catholic Church all the way back to the Papacy of Peter in his Oxford Dictionary of Popes.

Now - from the Early Church Fathers:

Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp
When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way – small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world – the time for departure came. So they placed him on an ass, and brought him into the city on a great Sabbath (The Martyrdom of Polycarp 8 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus
The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said (Against Heresies 1:10 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian
Where was Marcion then, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus then, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago – in the reign of Antoninus for the most part – and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled (On the Prescription Against Heretics 22,30 [A.D.200])

Cyprian
The spouse of Christ cannot be defiled; she is uncorrupted and chaste. She knows one home . . . Does anyone believe that this unity which comes from divine strength, which is closely connected with the divine sacraments, can be broken asunder in the Church and be separated by the divisions of colliding wills? He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation (On the Unity of the Catholic Church 6 [A.D. 251]).

Ummm, any questions?

There are some numbers which don't sit well with me. But does that change the fact that this church is responsible for the slaughter of millions, more than any other institution on this planet? Nope. I estimate at least 150 million. This is far lower than the maximum number that I have heard. By their fruits.

I said nothing about the translation of the Bible into English. The index of forbidden books has been proven time and time again. But it is dismissed, time and time again.


"Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should
not be permitted to have the books of the Old or
New Testament; we most strictly forbid their having
any translation of these books."
- The Church Council of Toulouse 1229 AD
Source: Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe,
Scolar Press, London, England
copyright 1980 by Edward Peters,
ISBN 0-85967-621-8, pp. 194-195"

Be a fruit inspector.

WOW. Are you serious? Have you ever opened up a history book? Do you even know when the printing press was invented?
Let me educate you.

First of all, the Council of Tolouse prohibited the ownership and use of unapproved and defective versions of the Scriptures from being translated and distributed. In case you are unaware, copies of the Bible were NOT plentiful because the oprinting press hadn't yet been invented. They had to be HAND-WRITTEN and took YEARS to complete.

Canon 14 was aimed at those who were making flawed translations.
Luther and his minions simply bypassed this canon by inventing their own doctrines based on the actual Scriptures such as Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura. He even added the word "ALONE" to Rom. 3:28 in his German translation of the Bible.

As for the Church slaughtering "millions" - let's see the evidence. Where's your proof??
Surely, this would be easy to come by IF this were true . . .
The fact is that these inflated numbers are silly and unrealistic baased on the fact that most of civilization would have to have been wiped out to make them realistic.

Get your facts straight.

 

[domenic]

The only thing wrong with your theory, is it's not true history.
Canon 14 was written three hundred years ATER JESUS DIED.
The Catholic church has defended this false history against all facts presented.

 

[Mungo]

The only thing wrong with your theory, is it's not true history.
Canon 14 was written three hundred years ATER JESUS DIED.
The Catholic church has defended this false history against all facts presented.

Canon 14 of the Council of Toulouse was written 1200 years after Jesus died. You can't even get that right.

And so what? What is your point.

The history presented by ChurchAuthority and myself is correct. If you think it is wrong please supply evidence for something different.

All we get from you is your opinions.

 

[ChurchAuthority]

The only thing wrong with your theory, is it's not true history.
Canon 14 was written three hundred years ATER JESUS DIED.
The Catholic church has defended this false history against all facts presented.

Uhhh - what are you talking about, my anti-Catholic friend? As Mungo stated, Canon 14 at the Council of Toulouse was written in the THIRTEENTH CENTURY.

Get your facts straight.

 

[aspen]

I like your Icon, Mungo.

 

[domenic]

Catholic, if you think you have the truth, which I know that is what you think, please explain what the seed Satan has in Genesis 3:15, using scripture.

 

[ChurchAuthority]

Catholic, if you think you have the truth, which I know that is what you think, please explain what the seed Satan has in Genesis 3:15, using scripture.

Can you re-phrase the question so it makes sense?
Are you asking WHO is the seed of the Woman spoken of in Gen. 3:15?

 

[Mungo]

I like your Icon, Mungo.

Yes, I like it too.

I like icons. There is something special about them