Calvinism

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dragonfly

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Hi Andy,

See? There is nothing scary or threatening about Calvinism. It seeks mainly to make sure the Holiness, Sovereignty, and Preeminence of God is left intact when dealing with our interactions with Him.
Did you write this with your tongue firmly in your cheek, or are you serious(ly in support of TULIP as expressed by the definition you offered)?
 

Rex

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SCRIPTUREMONKEY_zpsfef975a6.png
---------------------->>>>> Be Calvinist scripture monkey


I am here to help...


How can you possibly be here to help anyone?
Are you going to mow their lawn or something?
 

biggandyy

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Not my definition of TULIP, that is the accepted nomenclature of the doctrine and yes, I support it whole heartedly and with the utmost confidence it is scripture and true.
 

IanLC

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Calvanists are you seriously telling me that if I accept Jesus sincerly as my Lord and Savior and live according to His Word and love then I will not be saved since I was not elected or predestined by God?


BiggAndyy said:
Not my definition of TULIP, that is the accepted nomenclature of the doctrine and yes, I support it whole heartedly and with the utmost confidence it is scripture and true.
The same way you say that about Calvanism I hold to my beliefs in Arminiasm but more so the Word of God. If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus you shall be saved. And that evey person that calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved!
 

dragonfly

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Thanks, Andy.

Does that mean you view the rest of scripture through tulip-tinted spectacles?
 

biggandyy

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Tulip deals with what it deals with, nothing more. I am also a Dispensationalist, usually anathema to Calvinists, but there you go.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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I find it interesting that in the 1980's .... as an excited new christian .... I tried continuously to tell everybody about Jesus (evangelize)

The results ...... zero saved

Keep in mind I was a well liked and respected businessman in my city ..... and I was not being "pushy religious" or offensive to anyone .

Then a funny thing happened ..... I "quit" evangelizing ..... mostly because it was not producing results ..... and I simply kept my Christianity close to my chest.

from that moment on .... right out of the blue ..... God would put some person or some situation right in front of me that had the hand of the miraculous in it ..... in other words God was recruiting someone HE was bringing to salvation and used me (and others) to reach them for Jesus.

it is almost like He predestined those encounters ..... and salvation results were always 100% in the end.

I confess to taking the easy lazy way ever since then ..... I never try to convert anybody ..... i simply do nothing and those situations pop up on their own by God's foreknowledge and arrangement.

I am not a "Calvinist" ..... but these situations have the aroma of predestination ..... anyone else had similar things happen to them ??
 

williemac

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God gives grace to the humble, resists the proud. There is your criteria. Otherwise, we would have a God who picks and chooses some while rejecting others for no particular reason or criteria. Unless of course, a Calvinist can produce for me another criteria that they feel God used to predstine who His elect would be. God did not randomly pre choose who would be saved and who would not....did He?
 

biggandyy

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The scripture clearly states He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and He will have compassion on whom He will have compassion. He has seen fit not to make known His motivation or His process other than it is of His good pleasure to do so. I realize this makes people squirmish who desperately want to try to please God. We can indeed please God, but we can not save ourselves. We are saved by faith and that faith is a gift from God, not our own understanding or free will.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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BiggAndyy said:
The scripture clearly states He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and He will have compassion on whom He will have compassion. He has seen fit not to make known His motivation or His process other than it is of His good pleasure to do so. I realize this makes people squirmish who desperately want to try to please God. We can indeed please God, but we can not save ourselves. We are saved by faith and that faith is a gift from God, not our own understanding or free will.
Squirmish! Good one. That's like stupidstitious, or condamnation.
 

ScottAU

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UHCAIan said:
Calvanists are you seriously telling me that if I accept Jesus sincerly as my Lord and Savior and live according to His Word and love then I will not be saved since I was not elected or predestined by God?


The same way you say that about Calvanism I hold to my beliefs in Arminiasm but more so the Word of God. If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus you shall be saved. And that evey person that calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved!

A Calvinist will teach that the reason someone "accepts Jesus as their Lord and Saviour" is due to the drawing of Irresistible Grace (I in TULIP). Thus those who are not predestined to be the Elect will not receive Irresistible Grace but only what they call Common Grace.

Remember they teach Total Depravity (T in TULIP) by which man is COMPLETELY DISABLED and thus CANNOT CHOOSE to come to God. It is the Irresistible Grace which offsets the disability of Total Depravity.
 

Axehead

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BiggAndyy said:
The scripture clearly states He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and He will have compassion on whom He will have compassion. He has seen fit not to make known His motivation or His process other than it is of His good pleasure to do so. I realize this makes people squirmish who desperately want to try to please God. We can indeed please God, but we can not save ourselves. We are saved by faith and that faith is a gift from God, not our own understanding or free will.
And why does He have mercy or compassion who "whom He will have compassion". It is not a lottery or willy-nilly or how God is feeling today. He has mercy and compassion on those who humble themselves before Him.

People use Romans 9:15 as if God has forgotten everything else He has said in the Bible about returning to Him and turning away from your idols. About, "let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet they shall be white as snow". About, how He will not despise the humble but resists the proud. And about all the other verses in the Bible that speak of God instructing us to choose life or death, blessing or cursing, good or evil.

Most man-made doctrines are built on specific verses to the exclusion of others.

We need the WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD!
 

ScottAU

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Here are is a clear example of how Reformed Theology contradicts the tenet of Scripture...

V. This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated;[11] and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.[12]




Westminster Confession, Article 6

http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/




II. This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man;[7] yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part;[8] whence arises a continual and irreconcilable war, the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.[9]

III. In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail;[10] yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part does overcome;[11] and so, the saints grow in grace,[12] perfecting holiness in the fear of God.[13]
Westminster Confession, Chapter 13



http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/


The passages in bold allude to how they teach that a regenerated Christian remains inwardly defiled and thus double minded.

What they have done is confuse "temptation" with "sin."

The Bible teaches this...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Under Reformed doctrine this "being drawn away in temptation and enticed by the lusts of the flesh" is a "sin nature" or "corruption of nature." Another word for the lusts of the flesh is the term "concupiscence" and it was Augustine who taught that the very existence of concupiscence was PROOF of "inborn sin" or "inborn corruption of nature" being passed down in the male sperm (Seminal Identity or Traducianism).

The Bible is clear that Jesus was...

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

As well as that...

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Temptation is not sin nor are the passions of the flesh sin. Nor is temptation or the passions of the flesh a "sinful nature," they are simply natural desires that God calls us to rule over. Sin is when when the will is exercised in a manner to gratify carnal desire in discordance with the knowledge of the truth (right and wrong).

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Thus it is the mind set on the things of the flesh which is an enemy of God.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Thus as can be seen by the above quotes from the Westminster Confession of Faith it is clearly evident that Reformed Theology teaches that the "temptation wrought by natural desire" is viewed as sin. Due to viewing this as sin they are forced to deny genuine heart purity in those whom are regenerated and thus preach a doctrine which caters to double-mindedness existing in a regenerated believer, ie. "In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail;" WCF Ch. 13 Sec. 3

This is why they are compelled to rip out of context scriptures like Rom 7:14-25 and 1Joh 1:8 as proof texts for an ongoing state of sinfulness in a Christian.

Thus due to this "ongoing state of corruption" that they believe in they have forced an invented theology upon the "death of Christ" known as Penal Substitution in which they can teach a POSITIONAL/ABSTRACT salvation in that they view justification as purely based on the forensic swap of "Christ's Righteousness" for the "Believers Sin." This is often termed the "Double Imputation" of Reformed Theology.

This forensic transfer as the basis of being right with God utterly perverts what the Bible actually teaches. It is a complete denial of the true Gospel whereby people can be redeemed from all iniquity and made pure by the blood of Christ.

The Bible clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is in the world convicting people of sin, righteousness and the judgment to come. When a sinner responds to this conviction through a godly sorrow working a genuine repentance whereby the rebellion to God is forsaken, that "former" sinner is found to be in a submissive and teachable state before God. It is in this state that God raises the former sinner up unto newness of life whereby they are cleansed of their former sins by the blood of Christ and thus they can faithfully abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ having been made inwardly pure via their faith. There is no inward corruption or root of iniquity in a Saint of God for they have been cleansed and purged of all sin.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Yet "temptation" still exists and the "passions and desires" still exist, yet the passions and desires are CRUCIFIED for the old man has been put to death thus the minds eye of a saint is set SINGLY on God.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

This is the true state of a genuine born again believer. If a professing Christian is not in that state they need to do what Paul teaches...

Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

It amazes me how readily people buy into these theological systems when the Bible so clearly and plainly contradicts their doctrinal tenets. So many people will argue in favour of being perpetually corrupt in this life and scorn any contention that genuine heart purity is possible.

The Bible says this...

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be
righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

There is absolutely nothing forensic or positional implied in the above passage.

What you do is a reflection of who you are!
 

ScottAU

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Axehead said:
And why does He have mercy or compassion who "whom He will have compassion". It is not a lottery or willy-nilly or how God is feeling today. He has mercy and compassion on those who humble themselves before Him.

People use Romans 9:15 as if God has forgotten everything else He has said in the Bible about returning to Him and turning away from your idols. About, "let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet they shall be white as snow". About, how He will not despise the humble but resists the proud. And about all the other verses in the Bible that speak of God instructing us to choose life or death, blessing or cursing, good or evil.

Most man-made doctrines are built on specific verses to the exclusion of others.

We need the WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD!
Good words Axehead.

I find the best antidote to the false theological systems of men is to simply stop reading the doctrines of men and read the Bible plainly for what it says. Read the Epistles of Paul, James, Peter, John, and Jude as letters as they were meant to be written.

The theologians construct their systematic theologies via isolating and proof texting verses whilst completely ignoring the actual context. This is why it is so easy to refute their contentions because all one has to do is provide the context to demonstrate their error.

Romans 9 is in the context of the nation of Israel having been presdestined and not that of individual salvation.
 

biggandyy

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Axe, God IS telling us the reason of WHY and as a bonus the HOW; it's because HE WILL. What you might call "willy nilly" is what is in reality God's Sovereign Choice because of His own good pleasure. I am sorry God does not live up to your expectations of a reasonable response. After all, does the clay ask the potter "what are you making"? Does not the potter have the right to make what He wills of the clay independent of the wishes of the clay?


Scott, I can not speak to the Westminster Confession since that is a document I do not confess.
 

ScottAU

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BiggAndyy said:
Axe, God IS telling us the reason of WHY and as a bonus the HOW; it's because HE WILL. What you might call "willy nilly" is what is in reality God's Sovereign Choice because of His own good pleasure. I am sorry God does not live up to your expectations of a reasonable response. After all, does the clay ask the potter "what are you making"? Does not the potter have the right to make what He wills of the clay independent of the wishes of the clay?


Scott, I can not speak to the Westminster Confession since that is a document I do not confess.
The Westmninster Confession is inline with Calvin's Institutes.

The fundamental flaw of Reformed Theology is the doctrine of Total Depravity and the associated inability of man it necessitates. Under Total Depravity there is no genuine freewill for freewill is disabled from having access to the virtuous choice.

Martin Luther and John Calvin both repudiated free will in the context of being able to access the virtuous choice without being offset by some special grace. Both men were heavily influenced by the writings of Augustine who taught inability due to inborn corruption inherited from Adam.

The whole system is a very dangerous deception which completely destroys the message of the Gospel.

Satan is a master theologian and his minions, who appear as ministers of righteousness, are very convincing indeed.
 

biggandyy

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It might be inline but it is not the spokesman for the doctrine. I personally follow the Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.
 

Butch5

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BiggAndyy said:
Calvinism is popularly known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in it's totality. They merely encompass some of its main points.

Total Depravity:
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine." Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all.

Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist.

God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s. “All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).

Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.

See? There is nothing scary or threatening about Calvinism. It seeks mainly to make sure the Holiness, Sovereignty, and Preeminence of God is left intact when dealing with our interactions with Him.
None of this can be supported by properly exegeted Scripture.