CALVINISM: The height of Spiritual depravity

[Scott Downey]

Those guided by the Spirit of God are God's sons, whether you read it in KJ21, ASV, AMP, AMPC, BRG, CSB, CEB, CJB, CEV, DARBY, DLNT, DRA, ERV, EASY, EHV, ESV, ESVUK, EXB, GNV, GW, GNT, HCSB, ICB, ISV, PHILLIPS, JUB, KJV, AKJV, LSB, LEB, TLB, MSG, or MEV.

Yeah, most versions are saying the same thing, except for the MSG version, which I find bizarre.

 

[Red Baker]

Exactly, and we only get those, when we become Born Again...Born Again of the Spirit.....it’s our spirit that is Born Again...that’s what some aren’t understanding?

Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Greetings Rita~On this point I think you are erring.

The new birth is a creation of a new man within us after the image of Jesus Christ. This new man cannot sin, has perfect faith, the faith of Jesus Christ.

The old man Adam is still with us, even though he can be put to death, yet never totally is as long as we live in the flesh, sin will dwell in its members until death or Jesus returns.

But the Scripture positively affirms, that to circumcise the hearts of men, is the work of God alone: nor is regeneration ascribed to any other than God Himself. -- The teachings of all of the prophets, apostles and the reformers, but above them all...Jesus Christ

With one voice they all proclaim:

That obstinacy and enmity are common to all men, We fully admit; and we also maintain, that the heart of no man is softened, and made flexible and obedient to the will of God, until God gives him the will and power to do what He commands. For why are we called "new creatures?" but because "we are His workmanship; created unto good works?" --But, I pray you, what kind of a division, and how iniquitous a division, of all praise and glory, would it be, to make God the Creator of us mortal men; and yet to make each one of us his own creator unto righteousness and eternal life! In this way, God would only have for Himself the praise of ineffectual and failing grace. That portion of the glory which is the far more excellent, would fall to our lot. But the Scripture positively affirms, that to circumcise the hearts of men, is the work of God alone: nor is regeneration ascribed to any other than God Himself. Hence it is, that whatever in man is created anew, in the image of Jesus Christ, is called "a spiritual person." "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit~or, spiritual, having the mind of Christ" (John 3:6: 1st Corinthians 2:.14-16)

 

[Tulipbee]

As you can read, some Calvinist opponents have problems with the scriptures, as in they don't like what scripture says. then they question all scriptures.

Ah, the cosmic dance of theological dissent! It seems some Calvinist opponents have put on their dancing shoes and are doing the cha-cha with the Scriptures, expressing a bit of theological discomfort. Picture them twirling around the verses, unsure of the steps, questioning the divine choreography.

In this celestial ballroom, when faced with certain scriptures, they don't quite fancy the dance moves. It's like a theological tango where the steps of predestination and election might feel a bit too intricate for their liking. "Do we really have to follow these divine dance steps?" they ponder.

But let's not forget, in the grand narrative of faith, the Scriptures are the celestial music that guides the dance. While some may question the rhythm, others find themselves in the cosmic embrace of Calvinistic theology, waltzing to the divine tunes of preordained grace.

So, whether they're doing a rebellious jitterbug against certain verses or engaged in a theological moonwalk, the dance floor of doctrinal disagreement remains open. After all, in this celestial ballroom, the dance of theological interpretation is as diverse as the cosmic constellations. Let the cosmic dance continue, and may the theological waltz lead us closer to the truth!

 

[Scott Downey]

Greetings Rita~On this point I think you are erring.

The new birth is a creation of a new man within us after the image of Jesus Christ. This new man cannot sin, has perfect faith, the faith of Jesus Christ.

The old man Adam is still with us, even though he can be put to death, yet never totally is as long as we live in the flesh, sin will dwell in its members until death or Jesus returns.

But the Scripture positively affirms, that to circumcise the hearts of men, is the work of God alone: nor is regeneration ascribed to any other than God Himself. -- The teachings of all of the prophets, apostles and the reformers, but above them all...Jesus Christ

With one voice they all proclaim:

Yes, we still have that old man of the flesh to deal with as it sins.
And that part remains dead and will never be redeemed as it part of the old creation.
We get a new glorified spiritual body at the Resurrection.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be [b]carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [d]through His Spirit who dwells in you.

And v7 proves the carnal mind cannot receive the Spirit of God and believe in Christ as it says

Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

To please God and believe in Christ, you must first be born again by the Spirit of God.

 

[Ritajanice]

Greetings Rita~On this point I think you are erring.

The new birth is a creation of a new man within us after the image of Jesus Christ. This new man cannot sin, has perfect faith, the faith of Jesus Christ.

The old man Adam is still with us, even though he can be put to death, yet never totally is as long as we live in the flesh, sin will dwell in its members until death or Jesus returns.

But the Scripture positively affirms, that to circumcise the hearts of men, is the work of God alone: nor is regeneration ascribed to any other than God Himself. -- The teachings of all of the prophets, apostles and the reformers, but above them all...Jesus Christ

With one voice they all proclaim:

You’re entitled to your opinion as am I...we must be Born Again of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, which is the new heart/ Spirit that we receive within.when we are regenerated..that’s our new nature is in Christ.

Ezekiel 36:26-27

King James Version

​

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
We have our new nature, that nature is in Christ and it’s inevitable that we will grow and mature in Christ, because we have been Born Again of imperishable seed.

As Gods word says, Spirit gives birth to spirit...spiritual birth....then there is the flesh gives birth to flesh..the human birth @Scott Downey

So agree to disagree with your opinion....I think we are more or less on the same page, just at different levels of understanding Gods word.

 

[Ritajanice]

And v7 proves the carnal mind cannot receive the Spirit of God and believe in Christ as it says

Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Of course...how could we possibly know who God is, without the Holy Spirit?

Before we are drawn to Jesus by God, brought to repentance/ Godly sorrow by God, brought to believe in Jesus..there is no rebirth without believing in the name of Jesus.......we are spiritually dead?

 

[Ritajanice]

Yes, we still have that old man of the flesh to deal with as it sins.

1 John 3:9​

1 John 3:9 KJV​

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[Scott Downey]

1 John 3:9​

1 John 3:9 KJV​

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Paul tells us believers to put off the old man.
It is still possible to act out the works of the flesh as a saved person, course there will be a judgement on this.
There was a man sleeping with his mother, and they would not repent, and Paul told them to evict him from among them, deliver him to Satan, so that his spirit would be saved in the day of the Lord.
And it worked, he repented of that, and they accepted him again.
The sin is not one of the spirit, it is one of the flesh. The spirit of a saved person can not sin as it is joined to the LORD as one spirit with him. But our bodies are not joined to the Lord.

Ephesians 4

The New Man​

17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as [f]the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

 

[Scott Downey]

Striving for a Crown​

1 Cor 9
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may [i]obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize [j]is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Romans 6
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as [d]instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Arminians wrote the "five points of Calvinism"

No they wrote the five points of Jacob Armenius, that is why they are called Armenians. Calvinists wrote the "five points" to refute the five major points Armenius gave at the Synod of Dort.

The "five points" of Calvinism are in direct contradiction to the points of Amenius.

Why Do Calvinists and Arminians Disagree So Strongly?

Compare Calvinism versus Arminianism side by side, and learn why these doctrines form one of the most divisive debates in the history of the church.

www.learnreligions.com

 

[Tulipbee]

You’re entitled to your opinion as am I...we must be Born Again of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, which is the new heart/ Spirit that we receive within.when we are regenerated..that’s our new nature is in Christ.

Ezekiel 36:26-27​

​

King James Version​

​

​

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
We have our new nature, that nature is in Christ and it’s inevitable that we will grow and mature in Christ, because we have been Born Again of imperishable seed.

As Gods word says, Spirit gives birth to spirit...spiritual birth....then there is the flesh gives birth to flesh..the human birth @Scott Downey

So agree to disagree with your opinion....I think we are more or less on the same page, just at different levels of understanding Gods word.

Arminianism? Oh, my theological taste buds say, "No, thank you!" It's like trying to fit a square peg into a round doctrinal hole. As John Calvin would say, "Let's check the Scriptures, shall we?"

Now, Calvin, that theological maestro, once noted that salvation is not a cosmic potluck; it's a divinely catered feast. Picture this: you're at the biblical banquet, and Calvin insists that only the elect get the VIP invitation. It's not about personal preferences, but divine choices.

Arminianism, on the other hand, seems to be handing out celestial invitations left and right, like theological confetti. But Calvin would raise an eyebrow and say, "Hold on, folks, let's read Ephesians 1:4 together, where God chose us before the foundation of the world." It's a divine guest list, not a cosmic lottery.

And the divine dance between God's sovereignty and human will? Calvin would remind us of Philippians 2:13, where God is the cosmic choreographer, pulling the strings. Arminians might do a little salsa with free will, but Calvin says, "Let's follow the divine dance steps."

So, while some may find Arminianism a theologically tempting dessert, Calvin would encourage us to stick to the scriptural main course. After all, in this cosmic culinary journey, it's about savoring the divine truths, not just theological snacks. Bon appétit! ️

 

[Tulipbee]

No they wrote the five points of Jacob Armenius, that is why they are called Armenians. Calvinists wrote the "five points" to refute the five major points Armenius gave at the Synod of Dort.

The "five points" of Calvinism are in direct contradiction to the points of Amenius.

Why Do Calvinists and Arminians Disagree So Strongly?

Compare Calvinism versus Arminianism side by side, and learn why these doctrines form one of the most divisive debates in the history of the church.

www.learnreligions.com

You are correct, I made a mistake

 

[Ritajanice]

Paul tells us believers to put off the old man.
It is still possible to act out the works of the flesh as a saved person, course there will be a judgement on this.
There was a man sleeping with his mother, and they would not repent, and Paul told them to evict him from among them, deliver him to Satan, so that his spirit would be saved in the day of the Lord.
And it worked, he repented of that, and they accepted him again.
The sin is not one of the spirit, it is one of the flesh. The spirit of a saved person can not sin as it is joined to the LORD as one spirit with him. But our bodies are not joined to the Lord.

Ephesians 4

The New Man​

17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as [f]the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

None of us were without sin at one time..and as God says..a Born Again does not continue to sin, because they have been Born Again of imperishable seed... I go by Gods word addressed to his children..other scripture regarding sin do not apply to a Born Again.

 

[Tulipbee]

None of us were without sin at one time..and as God says..a Born Again does not continue to sin, because they have been Born Again of imperishable seed... I go by Gods word addressed to his children..other scripture regarding sin do not apply to a Born Again.

Ah, the cosmic conundrum of sin and salvation! It's like trying to untangle a theological spaghetti with a fork. Let's take a stroll through the scriptural garden and see what seeds are being planted.

Now, as you rightly point out, the cosmic decree says, "Born Again? No more sinning!" It's like a divine reset button, and you're rocking that imperishable seed status. But, hang on a cosmic minute! Are we saying once saved, always sinless?

Now, John Calvin, the theological gardener himself, would chime in with Romans 7:18, where even the cosmic apostle Paul admits, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells." It's like a theological reality check – imperishable seed, meet the persistent flesh.

But fear not, cosmic friend! Calvin would navigate us to Romans 6:1-2, where the apostle says, "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!" It's like a divine warning sign – imperishable seed, resist the cosmic temptation to sin.

So, in this celestial dance of sin and salvation, let's remember, imperishable seed or not, the flesh does the tango with temptation. But fear not, for the scriptural garden assures us – though we may stumble in the cosmic salsa, the imperishable seed is our steadfast guide. Keep grooving in grace!

 

[Starise]

In looking at the bible and not giving ear to Calvin, I come up with three key points.

- God does call or select certain men and women for His purposes.
- God Loves the ones He didn't call, meaning just because they weren't specifically called to a task didn't exclude them from salvation.
- God either blinds or allows the blinding of those who want to be blinded. They wanted a lie over the truth, so he lets them have the lie.

The only question for me is can the willfully ignorant and therefore blinded (reprobate) be unblinded through our prayers? Do we have precident for God's mercy at our requests? I think we see this in Abraham as he asks God to hold off destruction of Sodom for only a handful of the faithful. God listens and grants his request.
There are references to spouses with unbelieving husbands and the influence a believing spouse can have on an unbelieving spouse.

So I would say that yes, God grants requests from a clean and sincere heart or at the very least a sincere praying man or woman is heard by God and since we are told to bring our requests to Him, I don't think He would pitch them all out, but lovingly consider them.

I son't believe the theology supports a God who would make beings to eventually torture forever because He made them not to accept Him.

 

[Ritajanice]

Paul tells us believers to put off the old man.
It is still possible to act out the works of the flesh as a saved person, course there will be a judgement on this.
There was a man sleeping with his mother, and they would not repent, and Paul told them to evict him from among them, deliver him to Satan, so that his spirit would be saved in the day of the Lord.
And it worked, he repented of that, and they accepted him again.
The sin is not one of the spirit, it is one of the flesh. The spirit of a saved person can not sin as it is joined to the LORD as one spirit with him. But our bodies are not joined to the Lord.

Ephesians 4

The New Man​

17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as [f]the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

 

[Ritajanice]

- God does call or select certain men and women for His purposes.
- God Loves the ones He didn't call, meaning just because they weren't specifically called to a task didn't exclude them from salvation.

I agree for what it’s worth..Amen!

Much more relaxed on this forum..don’t you think?

 

[Starise]

I agree for what it’s worth..Amen!

Much more relaxed on this forum..don’t you think?

Yes and no. With more freedom comes more responsibility. IT doesn't feel as imposing probably to a new comer IMO.

 

[Ritajanice]

Yes and no. With more freedom comes more responsibility. IT doesn't feel as imposing probably to a new comer IMO.

I have learnt a lot about myself on here, Praise God!....the mods and admin know that we are a work in progress and they have the patience of Job....they won’t ban us unless they have to, even then, it’s not a permanent ban,,,just a few months of cooling off and looking back at how we posted, it’s good to reflect back...all in my opinion.
I haven’t been banned yet!..LOL.

 

[Starise]

The more doctrinally loose a forum is, the more potential for error to be introduced, so it's more up to the membership to correct it and not the mods.