CALVINISM: The height of Spiritual depravity

[JBO]

What are you smoking?

Your words.

We have the bible as authoritative and our spiritual guide to truth as we read it today.

I just wanted to know which versions you considered as authoritative.

 

[Scott Downey]

Of course...how could we possibly know who God is, without the Holy Spirit?

Before we are drawn to Jesus by God, brought to repentance/ Godly sorrow by God, brought to believe in Jesus..there is no rebirth without believing in the name of Jesus.......we are spiritually dead?

We must be born again to see the kingdom of God, must be born again to enter the kingdom of God
Logically since the carnal mind is not subject to God, a person must be first born again to believe in Christ to the saving of the soul.
Makes no sense a carnal mind can believe to the saving of their soul as it has enmity (fierce dislike, hatred) against God. Such people will not listen to Christ, have no love for Christ.

7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

This is also God's will that cannot be resisted.
John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

 

[Ritajanice]

I son't believe the theology supports a God who would make beings to eventually torture forever because He made them not to accept Him.

Where anyone believes that God made some not to accept him...imo...have gone in the head, it’s a depraved way of thinking imo.

 

[Ritajanice]

We must be born again to see the kingdom of God, must be born again to enter the kingdom of God
Logically since the carnal mind is not subject to God, a person must be first born again to believe in Christ to the saving of the soul.
Makes no sense a carnal mind can believe to the saving of their soul as it has enmity (fierce dislike, hatred) against God. Such people will not listen to Christ, have no love for Christ.

7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

This is also God's will that cannot be resisted.
John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Listen,.,.just remember you and I were once carnal in our mind....and were alienated from God....

All of God’s word takes time to understand and as I’ve said, we’re all at different levels of understanding.

 

[JBO]

The more doctrinally loose a forum is, the more potential for error to be introduced, so it's more up to the membership to correct it and not the mods.

And who decides what is error. You sound a little like the Main Stream Media who are always anxious to identify what they do not like as false.

 

[Scott Downey]

The carnal mind here will not submit itself to Christ, will not come to Christ as it does not have God's word abiding in it. Does not have the love of God in it. Such a one cannot believe. It is why you must first be born again. Only then will you come to Christ.
It is the Spirit who makes us willing to come to Christ. God must grant you to come to Christ. read john 6

John 5
37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.

39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.

40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

41 “I do not receive honor from men.

42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you

 

[Ritajanice]

The more doctrinally loose a forum is, the more potential for error to be introduced, so it's more up to the membership to correct it and not the mods.

Ah....but whose to say whose in error....we all think were in the truth...and let’s be honest there is lots of interpretations of scripture...from all of us members..

 

[Starise]

And who decides what is error. You sound a little like the Main Stream Media who are always anxious to identify what they do not like as false.

Nope not at all. That board has a statement of faith maybe similar to a church. nuff said.

Remember the bible tells us that in the latter days many false teachers will arise. I think we need to be on guard against that. Now whether you think that should be a personal decision or an organizational decuision is up to you.

 

[Scott Downey]

In looking at the bible and not giving ear to Calvin, I come up with three key points.

- God does call or select certain men and women for His purposes.
- God Loves the ones He didn't call, meaning just because they weren't specifically called to a task didn't exclude them from salvation.
- God either blinds or allows the blinding of those who want to be blinded. They wanted a lie over the truth, so he lets them have the lie.

The only question for me is can the willfully ignorant and therefore blinded (reprobate) be unblinded through our prayers? Do we have precident for God's mercy at our requests? I think we see this in Abraham as he asks God to hold off destruction of Sodom for only a handful of the faithful. God listens and grants his request.
There are references to spouses with unbelieving husbands and the influence a believing spouse can have on an unbelieving spouse.

So I would say that yes, God grants requests from a clean and sincere heart or at the very least a sincere praying man or woman is heard by God and since we are told to bring our requests to Him, I don't think He would pitch them all out, but lovingly consider them.

I son't believe the theology supports a God who would make beings to eventually torture forever because He made them not to accept Him.

Abraham was worried about Lot and his family, not about the others in the city
It is why he counts down by numbers if God would spare it for xx number...

Abraham also asked God to let Ishmail live before Him. But God denies the covenant of eternal life to Ishmael.

17 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, “Shall a child be born to a man who is one hundred years old? And shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!”

19 Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.

21 But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year.” 22 Then He finished talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

 

[Scott Downey]

The more doctrinally loose a forum is, the more potential for error to be introduced, so it's more up to the membership to correct it and not the mods.

Ok.
Let's stick with scripture then and no suppositions.
For example, Isaac again as an example of God's choice.
This is an important chapter to understand as it explains God's electing of some and not others to salvation.

Romans 9

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose​

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice​

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[Starise]

Abraham was worried about Lot and his family, not about the others in the city
It is why he counts down by numbers if God would spare it for xx number...

This is a good thought but it can only be an assumption because you have no basis for the claim other than what you think.

Abraham also asked God to let Ishmail live before Him. But God denies the covenant of eternal life to Ishmael.

These convenants were about God sending His blessing to the entire earth, such as the covenent He made with Abraham. This had nothing to do specifically with eternal life being intentionally witheld from anyone.

17 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, “Shall a child be born to a man who is one hundred years old? And shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!”

What bible are you reading from? Seriously what version/ type of bible?? My bible says Sarah laughed silently to herself and as called on it. Maybe they both laughed which would make both of us right ;)

21 But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year.” 22 Then He finished talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

These specific Jewish people were used of God as a conduit to bless the rest of the earth. Culmination being Jesus who died for our sins.
God wants to bless the entire earth. That's basically the Christian message.

 

[Scott Downey]

This is a good thought but it can only be an assumption because you have no basis for the claim other than what you think.



These convenants were about God sending His blessing to the entire earth, such as the covenent He made with Abraham. This had nothing to do specifically with eternal life being intentionally witheld from anyone.



What bible are you reading from? Seriously what version/ type of bible?? My bible says Sarah laughed silently to herself and as called on it. Maybe they both laughed which would make both of us right ;)



These specific Jewish people were used of God as a conduit to bless the rest of the earth. Culmination being Jesus who died for our sins.
God wants to bless the entire earth. That's basically the Christian message.

NKJV bible.
Salvation is by election, according to foreknowledge of God, not anything else.
Your response is way to generalized to mean anything.

God chose Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. Isaac's line to be in covenant with Him.

All the other families all over the earth at that time worshipped idols and not God.
Only they had the Lord as their God.

This is the promise of God to Abraham, God made a promise and He kept it.
He did not choose any other family over the entire earth.

 

[Starise]

NKJV bible.
Salvation is by election, according to foreknowledge of God, not anything else.
Your response is way to generalized to mean anything.

God chose Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. Isaac's line to be in covenant with Him.

All the other families all over the earth at that time worshipped idols and not God.

This is the promise of God to Abraham, God made a promise and He kept it.
He did not choose any other family over the entire earth.

Then why do you feel the need to tell us about it since it's all decided anyway?

I am not calvinist for good reason. You accuse me of generality but so far that's all I've seen from you.

 

[Scott Downey]

Then why do you feel the need to tell us about it since it's all decided anyway?

I am not calvinist for good reason. You accuse me of generality but so far that's all I've seen from you.

Nope, I am specifically pointing you and others to specific scriptures that explain these things,
You're as opposed to learning the truth as all other scripture deniers in this thread.

Why is that exactly?

 

[Starise]

Nope, I am specifically pointing you and others to specific scriptures that explain these things,
You're as opposed to learning the truth as all other scripture deniers in this thread.

Why is that exactly?

I am attending a reformed church and have reformed friends, but they know I disagree with them. I am no stragnger to this theology trust me. You point me to your selective scriptures to make your points which I vehemenently disagree with. The bible is a collection of books that all need to be evaluated and compared.
When you say "pointing" you are exactly right. You ARE pointing me to it. But I've seen it all and the other scriptures you seem to disregard.

This is one thing that causes me pause when talking to someone who makes it their life's mission to tell people Jesus might not have died for them. Why is that?
If your stance is true, how is it any advantage to tell them so? Let them enjoy their lives as lost people until they all die. What gain is there to rubbing this in to such an extent? What are you protecting.defending here?

My bible tells me that anyone who desires to come to the Lord can do so. No hell bound robots.

 

[Ritajanice]

Nope, I am specifically pointing you and others to specific scriptures that explain these things,
You're as opposed to learning the truth as all other scripture deniers in this thread.

Says you and only you!!!.

Why is that exactly?

No....you are pointing to what “ you” believe Gods word to be saying.

As I’ve said.....only God can bring us to the truth......Jesus sheep know his voice and run from a strangers voice...only Gods voice can penetrate the heart of his child.

Look what I’ve just said....I voiced my opinion...like we “ all” do.....

 

[Tulipbee]

I have learnt a lot about myself on here, Praise God!....the mods and admin know that we are a work in progress and they have the patience of Job....they won’t ban us unless they have to, even then, it’s not a permanent ban,,,just a few months of cooling off and looking back at how we posted, it’s good to reflect back...all in my opinion.
I haven’t been banned yet!..LOL.

Why on earth would you find yourself in the VIP section of the banishment club?

 

[Ritajanice]

 

[Scott Downey]

About our being elected to salvation according to foreknowledge of God, 1 Peter 1 says it very clearly

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

1 To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

 

[Scott Downey]

God always chooses who will be saved., both OC and NC.
God does this according to Him foreknowing us.
Our part is guaranteed to be a positive response to the message of the gospel as He chose us to be obedient and sprinkled with Christ's blood, meaning only we have the forgiveness of our sins, and those not chosen die in their sins.

You can either believe scripture or deny scripture, it says what it says.