CALVINISM: The height of Spiritual depravity

[Red Baker]

You should do a study and see what the New Testament says about being water baptized.

Jesus said "He that believeth and are baptized shall be saved" Mark 16:16

Being disobedient to the Lord ends badly...

The wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience. Colossians 3:6

Big Boy, why not start a thread on Mark 16:16 and I'll come there and debate you. Water baptism is not essential to be born again, but all who are baptized enjoy a salvation..... that, let's say OT saints did not enjoy. The words save/saved/salvation do not always mean salvation from sin and condemnation ~ those words have other biblical senses that most do not even consider.

Btw, I have done a thorough study on this subject many times over in the past fifty years, I'm 100% sure I understand it. Start your thread Big Boy and I'll come.

 

[Red Baker]

Red, you know I love you as a brother in Christ, but now you are just being funny. John the Baptist taught that water baptism was for the forgiveness of sins. And so did Peter, Paul and all the rest of the apostles who spoke of it. You deny that and probably will to you last dying breath.

You have yet in all these years given me even one example where it claims that Jesus had or needed faith. As I have said so many times, the very idea that Jesus had or needed faith in God is ludicrous to the point of being an oxymoron.

Find a baptism thread here and I'll come, but let us not use this thread, sorry if I was guilty of getting this thread off track.

 

[JBO]

As a matter of being obedient to God's Word telling us to get baptized, yes.

But, the water itself does no wash away out sin... only the Blood of Jesus actually washes our sin away.

First, the "blood" of Jesus is a euphemism for his death. If if was just blood, there would have been much easier ways to get some of Jesus blood without killing him on a cross after severe beatings. Second, I agree, the water itself does nothing about sin. However, the moment of baptism is when God forgives sins.

 

[Ritajanice]

First, the "blood" of Jesus is a euphemism for his death.

The blood of Jesus shed , is what reconciles us back to God....without the death and resurrection of Jesus.

How could we be reconciled back to God?

Only Jesus and his name can reconcile us back to God.....no perfect lamb slain, we would still be in darkness and sin?

 

[JBO]

In a nutshell....” NO”..we must be “ Born ..............” Again “ ...........of the Spirit.” Spiritual Birth”.

What is the "again" part? Again means that there was a birth before, and now there must be another birth, i.e., born again. So what was the first born of the Spirit if there is to be a birth of the Spirit again?

 

[JBO]

The blood of Jesus shed , is what reconciles us back to God....without the death and resurrection of Jesus.

How could we be reconciled back to God?

Only Jesus and his name can reconcile us back to God.....no perfect lamb slain, we would still be in darkness and sin?

Do you know the word euphemism?

 

[Ritajanice]

What is the "again" part? Again means that there was a birth before, and now there must be another birth, i.e., born again. So what was the first born of the Spirit if there is to be a birth of the Spirit again?

The Born ...Again “ part....is the second spiritual birth.

We were Born of flesh...born of Adam sin..first birth.we had a spirit but it was spiritually dead.

Second birth....” Spiritual Birth....Born Again of the Holy Spirit....this is the second birth....our spirit is brought Alive in Christ.

◄ Ephesians 2:5 ►

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. New Living Translation that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) English Standard Version even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— Berean Standard Bible made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

 

[Ritajanice]

Do you know the word euphemism?

Please answer my question?

The blood of Jesus shed , is what reconciles us back to God....without the death and resurrection of Jesus.

How could we be reconciled back to God?

Only Jesus and his name can reconcile us back to God.....no perfect lamb slain, we would still be in darkness and sin?

That’s how much God Loved us....he gave up his only Son....we need to get on our knees every day and thank him for that act of Love.

Maybe continue this in the Born Again thread @JBO ?....rather than derail this one.

 

[JBO]

Good morning Jim, trust all is going well with you~Jim, you are getting old ( well, we both are, but you are getting close to ninety ) and your memory, while still in tact, is fading...... ;)

Jesus secured the redemption of his people as a man living in the flesh ~yes, he was a man, a real man, a man's man, 100 % man! He was tempted as we are in all points as a man, not as God. To be short, it was his faith and perfect obedience that overcame the devil, and world in his flesh. When we see God, it will be only in the glorified person of the man Jesus. God is a Spirit that dwells in eternity, always has, always will, this will never change world without end. No one has ever seen God ~ impossible to do so without being consumed, no man, no angels........ Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible God, saints will live with him world without end. Jesus will be subject unto God as the man Christ Jesus, yet in his Deity, Jesus is the almighty God, the everlasting Father of all things.

Yes, my friend, Jesus as a man had faith that cause him to condemned sin in the flesh.

I'll leave you with this wonderful scriptures:

And yet you still have not shown us even one example where Jesus had or needed to have faith. i.e., to believe in God. I think I have mentioned before that in the 11th chapter of Hebrews, called the Bible's faith chapter, we have example after example of the results of the faith of many of the prophets, patriarchs and people of the Bible. We have listed there, Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, on and on. You know who is not listed? Jesus. Why? Because Jesus had absolute knowledge. Jesus having faith is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as Jesus' faith. He didn't have and didn't need to believe in God. I said, "I and the Father are one". Hebrews 11:1 says that faith is the conviction of things not seen. Jesus was with God from all eternity past. He had seen God, the Father. It wasn't faith that overcame the devil. It was His knowledge. The very idea that Jesus had or needed faith is blasphemy.

 

[JBO]

The Born ...Again “ part....is the second spiritual birth.

We were Born of flesh...born of Adam sin..first birth.we had a spirit but it was spiritually dead.

Second birth....” Spiritual Birth....Born Again of the Holy Spirit....this is the second birth....our spirit is brought Alive in Christ.

​

◄ Ephesians 2:5 ►

​

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. New Living Translation that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) English Standard Version even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— Berean Standard Bible made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

Our spirits come from God (Eccl 12:7; Zech 12:1). We were born of the Spirit from birth (or as I believe at conception). We were not born spiritually dead. The very idea that God would form in us a spirit dead at the outset is absolutely hateful of God. We become dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1-3; Col 2:13); we were not born that way. Thus we needed to be born AGAIN of the Spirit.

The very idea of being spiritually dead from birth is but one more Height of Spiritual Depravity of Calvinism.

 

[Ritajanice]

Because Jesus had absolute knowledge

Of course Jesus had spiritual knowledge...he was “ God in the flesh”?

Why would he need faith?

We are the ones who need God given faith....how can our own hearts have faith in God, without his Spirit?

How can we know God without his Spirit?

 

[Ritajanice]

Our spirits come from God (Eccl 12:7; Zech 12:1). We were born of the Spirit from birth (or as I believe at conception). We were not born spiritually dead. The very idea that God would form in us a spirit dead at the outset is absolutely hateful of God. We become dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1-3; Col 2:13); we were not born that way. Thus we needed to be born AGAIN of the Spirit.

The very idea of being spiritually dead from birth is but one more Height of Spiritual Depravity of Calvinism.

Gods word disagrees with your opinion.

We need to be Born Again

Our spirits come from God (Eccl 12:7; Zech 12:1). We were born of the Spirit from birth (or as I believe at conception). We were not born spiritually dead. The very idea that God would form in us a spirit dead at the outset is absolutely hateful of God. We become dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1-3; Col 2:13); we were not born that way. Thus we needed to be born AGAIN of the Spirit.

The very idea of being spiritually dead from birth is but one more Height of Spiritual Depravity of Calvinism.

Gods word disagrees with your opinion.

We need to be Born Again..the second spiritual birth...

Ephesians 2:1-10​

1 In the past you were spiritually dead because of your disobedience and sins. 1
2 At that time you followed the world's evil way; you obeyed the ruler of the spiritual powers in space, the spirit who now controls the people who disobey God.
3 Actually all of us were like them and lived according to our natural desires, doing whatever suited the wishes of our own bodies and minds. In our natural condition we, like everyone else, were destined to suffer God's anger.
4 But God's mercy is so abundant, and his love for us is so great,
5 that while we were spiritually dead in our disobedience he brought us to life with Christ. It is by God's grace that you have been saved.
6 In our union with Christ Jesus he raised us up with him to rule with him in the heavenly world.
7 He did this to demonstrate for all time to come the extraordinary greatness of his grace in the love he showed us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by God's grace that you have been saved through faith. It is not the result of your own efforts,
9 but God's gift, so that no one can boast about it.
10 God has made us what we are, and in our union with Christ Jesus he has created us for a life of good deeds, which he has already prepared for us to do.

 

[JBO]

How can we know God without his Spirit?

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

 

[Ritajanice]

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

This is speaking to unbelievers. @JBO ?

◄ Romans 8 ►

King James Bible Par ▾ No Condemnation in Christ 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Control by the Spirit (Galatians 5:16-26) 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

God has already said in his word, that without the Spirit we are none of his..

We must be regenerated/ Born Again to know God...you can’t know God just by reading the Bible....he must bring us Alive in Christ ...that can only be done by God via his Spirit.

That scripture is not saying what you think it’s saying imo.

 

[JBO]

Gods word disagrees with your opinion.

We need to be Born Again

Gods word disagrees with your opinion.

We need to be Born Again..the second spiritual birth...

Ephesians 2:1-10​

1 In the past you were spiritually dead because of your disobedience and sins. 1
2 At that time you followed the world's evil way; you obeyed the ruler of the spiritual powers in space, the spirit who now controls the people who disobey God.
3 Actually all of us were like them and lived according to our natural desires, doing whatever suited the wishes of our own bodies and minds. In our natural condition we, like everyone else, were destined to suffer God's anger.
4 But God's mercy is so abundant, and his love for us is so great,
5 that while we were spiritually dead in our disobedience he brought us to life with Christ. It is by God's grace that you have been saved.
6 In our union with Christ Jesus he raised us up with him to rule with him in the heavenly world.
7 He did this to demonstrate for all time to come the extraordinary greatness of his grace in the love he showed us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by God's grace that you have been saved through faith. It is not the result of your own efforts,
9 but God's gift, so that no one can boast about it.
10 God has made us what we are, and in our union with Christ Jesus he has created us for a life of good deeds, which he has already prepared for us to do.

You don't even understand yourself. You posted the following.

1 In the past you were spiritually dead because of your disobedience and sins.

That specifies the reason you were spiritually dead. You were spiritually dead, not because God gave you a dead spirit, not because you were spiritually dead from birth, not because of anything Adam did or didn't do, but because of your disobedience and sins.

Now I do not know what English version you were quoting from but it is right on even if not a one-for-one translation.

 

[Ritajanice]

You don't even understand yourself. You posted the following.

1 In the past you were spiritually dead because of your disobedience and sins.

That specifies the reason you were spiritually dead. You were spiritually dead, not because God gave you a dead spirit, not because you were spiritually dead from birth, not because of anything Adam did or didn't do, but because of your disobedience and sins.

Now I do not know what English version you were quoting from but it is right on even if not a one-for-one translation.

That is not what I said...I have already explained spiritual death...you aren’t understanding Gods word, re, spiritual death.imo.

You’re in so much confusion over it...imo....we have a spirit it was born into sin, therefore darkness and alienated from God.....that is called spiritual death?

Our spirit that was born into sin...needs to be regenerated by God, brought Alive in Gods Spirit?

​

◄ Romans 8 ►

​

King James Bible Par ▾ No Condemnation in Christ 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Control by the Spirit (Galatians 5:16-26) 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 

[JBO]

This is speaking to unbelievers.

No, Paul is speaking to the believers in Rome:

Rom 1:7 To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is speaking about unbelievers. Paul is saying that they can know about God:

Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

But they chose not to honor God or give thanks to Him:

Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened

You asked, I answered.

 

[JBO]

That is not what I said...

It is what you posted.

 

[Ritajanice]

No, Paul is speaking to the believers in Rome:

Rom 1:7 To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is speaking about unbelievers. Paul is saying that they can know about God:

Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

But they chose not to honor God or give thanks to Him:

Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened

You asked, I answered.

You cannot know God without his Spirit..I have already posted scripture...you cannot have a relationship with God, not until he makes us Born Again of the Spirit.

◄ Romans 8 ►

King James Bible Par ▾ No Condemnation in Christ 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Control by the Spirit (Galatians 5:16-26) 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 

[Ritajanice]

It is what you posted.

Which you aren’t understanding..imo.