Biggest mistake of the church and we need to go back

[NayborBear]

You can't invalidate God's gift - sounds like you are. Every single person is unique in their faith and God has each one of us in His hands. So don't fret as if Christianity has gone off the deep end ... God is in control. That is what sovereignty means. Up to the minute, every Christian written in the Book of Life has been saved, right on schedule. God will deal with the errors. He factors in all our blunders and errors into His perfect plan for us. To say things aren't going as they should is telling God we are somehow messing up His plan -impossible.

I don't know if you were referring this post to me, or my posts or not. But the "shoe" does seem to fit. So, I'll don that sucker and walk a ways with it. :)

First off? I'm not trying to invalidate God's gift, or gifts!
These ones however? ARE!

Jude:
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward (read Ezekiel 13:6,10,16 & 19), and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, FEEDING themselves WITHOUT fear: clouds they are without water(but they have $$$$), carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

And the oh so apparent "ignorantly blissful" (least to these eyes) ones, that perpetuate the "seduction" of, and for the "willingly ignorant", to this point:
Romans 11:

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded (arrogant), but fear: (be humble also fits here)
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel (don't even THINK Christianity ISN'T included here), until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.(is anyone cognizant, or have any clue of what this mystery is?)

Partially? This:
1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Which gives one eyes to see and ears to hear.

What all this means? Is that one can plant and water, plant and water, plant and water til the cows come home. But? When, or because of this?:
1 Corinthians 12:
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

One has to be a special kind of stupid in "thinking", and even more stupider than that, in "believing" that God will give INCREASE!

In conclusion?
God BLESS those parents in Louden County, Virginia!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I don't know if you were referring this post to me, or my posts or not. But the "shoe" does seem to fit. So, I'll don that sucker and walk a ways with it. :)

First off? I'm not trying to invalidate God's gift, or gifts!
These ones however? ARE!

Jude:
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward (read Ezekiel 13:6,10,16 & 19), and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, FEEDING themselves WITHOUT fear: clouds they are without water(but they have $$$$), carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

And the oh so apparent "ignorantly blissful" (least to these eyes) ones, that perpetuate the "seduction" of, and for the "willingly ignorant", to this point:
Romans 11:

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded (arrogant), but fear: (be humble also fits here)
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel (don't even THINK Christianity ISN'T included here), until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.(is anyone cognizant, or have any clue of what this mystery is?)

Partially? This:
1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Which gives one eyes to see and ears to hear.

What all this means? Is that one can plant and water, plant and water, plant and water til the cows come home. But? When, or because of this?:
1 Corinthians 12:
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

One has to be a special kind of stupid in "thinking", and even more stupider than that, in "believing" that God will give INCREASE!

In conclusion?
God BLESS those parents in Louden County, Virginia!

First, let me clarify that the gift of faith I am speaking of is the belief in Jesus. The removal of this blindness is supernatural, something we cannot accomplish, but must be humble and willing to ask to receive it for sure.

Jude, in that passage, is referring to the ungodly, the unfaithful.
As for Romans 11, the Jews were blinded for our sake, so that the Gentiles could be grafted in. That was God's doing. They cannot see if God does not remove their blindness.
I am cognizant that this enlightenment of Israel (a remnant equivalent to 1/3 of the Jewish population), will happen when the fullness of the Gentiles is complete. That means just prior to, at, or just after the sound of the LAST TRUMPET, which I believe to be the 7th. Then, "Every eye will see Him!" Obviously this will be a shocking moment, an epiphany, "Oh, Jesus really is the Messiah we've been waiting for, oops."
Their blindness will he removed for sure when they see him. But also the two witnesses who evangelize the Jews and the world for 3 1/2 years will create a tremendous revival effect.
I don't really think anybody has these events in perfect order. Revelation is like a transparent, multi-dimensional sphere of events that coincide, overlap ... different vantage points are seen when we turn the sphere.

 

[NayborBear]

As for Romans 11, the Jews were blinded for our sake

Really? You can't be serious. But afraid you are.
First off? They were cut off! BECAUSE of UNBELIEF!
If they HAD remained in belief?
We would be living in a much different set of circumstances then we are currently!
For the record, however?
Israel is now "blinded!" (still) Awaiting on us gentiles to provoke them to jealousy!
Of which, at this particular juncture in eternity?
Doesn't appear to be very jealous at all! Does it?
Allow me to ask a question. Just what will it take to provoke Israel to jealousy?
(ok....2 questions...:)) And, what does the fulness of the gentiles have to do with it?

Something to be "Sherlocked", Dr. Watson.
Instead of carrying on in the "seduction" that traditions and precepts of men, in using Jesus Christ as one's ending point? And going no further, because of the LACK of increase?
1 Peter 2:5
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, ACCEPTABLE TO God BY Jesus Christ.

Didn't Jesus say to you AND me: "IF you believe ME?" "Also BELIEVE in He who SENT Me!"

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Although my 'puter didn't die.....yet, anyways :) . I have been experiencing an awful lot of "internet wonkiness" as of late!
Little screen in the system tray shows I have internet access. But, when switching tabs or surfing somewhere else? Browser tells me it can't seem to find U-toob, or anywhere else I might go. Run network adapter diagnostics and it tells me DNS server is not recognized, or something like that.
DARN them Russia and China hackers anyways! Er wherever they may be from!

Technology is awesome- until it isn't!!!!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

My email address is [email protected] if you would like a faster response sir. Be glad to. I will start by mentioning one of the most quoted scriptures John 3:16, may I ask how that would play into Jesus being "God the Son"

Well I enjoy the public forum as it opens people to see differing views and how people defend them with Scripture.

Well John 3:16 standing by itself does not. but no bible verse stands or falls onits own. It is part of the whole.

And Jesus existed as God prior to His incarnation (Phil. 2) and when He became a man, He humbled or abased Himself to die for us.

He is called God IN John 1
In John 4 John declares He is equal with God.
In Is. 44 He is called Jehovah. Those are but a few.

Jesus as the God-man is God the Fathers only begotten son. Because He was begotten in Mary by God the Holy Spirit!

Remember god is both a person and an attribute of three in the bible.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Really? You can't be serious. But afraid you are.
First off? They were cut off! BECAUSE of UNBELIEF!
If they HAD remained in belief?
We would be living in a much different set of circumstances then we are currently!
For the record, however?
Israel is now "blinded!" (still) Awaiting on us gentiles to provoke them to jealousy!
Of which, at this particular juncture in eternity?
Doesn't appear to be very jealous at all! Does it?
Allow me to ask a question. Just what will it take to provoke Israel to jealousy?
(ok....2 questions...:)) And, what does the fulness of the gentiles have to do with it?

Something to be "Sherlocked", Dr. Watson.
Instead of carrying on in the "seduction" that traditions and precepts of men, in using Jesus Christ as one's ending point? And going no further, because of the LACK of increase?
1 Peter 2:5
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, ACCEPTABLE TO God BY Jesus Christ.

Didn't Jesus say to you AND me: "IF you believe ME?" "Also BELIEVE in He who SENT Me!"

Let's take look at various verses in Romans 11:

" I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? Far from it! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew..." (vs. 1, 2)
What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; (or blinded) just as it is written:

God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”(vs. 7,8)​

[>>> GOD DID IT TO THEM.]

"And David says,
May their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
May their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs continually.
... I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? Far from it! But by their wrongdoing salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous" (vs. 9-11)

[>>> has come means from that time to the present until all the numbers are in. Jealousy is also from the past to the present - we don't have to provoke them.]

"Now if their wrongdoing proves to be riches for the world, and their failure, riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!"(vs. 12)

[>>> Their wrongdoings and failure led to the world knowing Christ and so they will reap a gloriuos enlightenment - salvation for Israel is coming soon!]

"For if their rejection proves to be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?" (Vs. 15)
"And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again." (Vs. 23)

" For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
“This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
(Vs. 25-27)

"In relation to the gospel they are enemies on your account, but in relation to God’s choice they are beloved on account of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (vs. 28, 29)

[>>>So, they were already provoked to jealously - no provocation needed in the future. But a Great Tribulation, witnesses and God will move them towards repentance.
The fullness of the Gentiles is simply a time period when Every one in the Book of Life has been saved, right up to the last trumpet. This is when the "partial hardening" of the hearts of Israel will end and God will lift their veils so they can see Christ.]

 

[NayborBear]

[>>>So, they were already provoked to jealously - no provocation needed in the future. But a Great Tribulation, witnesses and God will move them towards repentance.
The fullness of the Gentiles is simply a time period when Every one in the Book of Life has been saved, right up to the last trumpet. This is when the "partial hardening" of the hearts of Israel will end and God will lift their veils so they can see Christ.]

I see what you're saying with this which I "clipped." Which lines up with the rest of your post.
But this is what I'm hearing;
2 Peter 3:4
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
In which things like this happens.
Isaiah 28:15
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

I don't agree at all with your timeline, as it seems the per usual proverbial "kicking the can down the road."
As for me? Provoking Israel to jealousy would indicate that something must needs be done by "a", or group of gentiles, that would give Israel such cause for wonderment or amazement that they would not by anyone that is not of the synagogue of satan, be able in refusing Jesus Christ, with a clear conscious.
This would happen before Christ being sent, or allowed to come back!

Doncha think it's past time that gentiles start singing a new song?
A song which would provoke (shame) Israel into seeing the Father in us via Christ?
Cuz onced Christ gets here?
It's game over!
Cuz then?
They'll be the ones taught and ruled with a rod of iron.

 

[Jay Ross]

[>>>So, they were already provoked to jealously - no provocation needed in the future. But a Great Tribulation, witnesses and God will move them towards repentance.
The fullness of the Gentiles is simply a time period when Every one in the Book of Life has been saved, right up to the last trumpet. This is when the "partial hardening" of the hearts of Israel will end and God will lift their veils so they can see Christ.]

It seems to me that people do not look at the Greek text and the meaning of the Greek words used.

Let us consider an interlinear to see if we can determine the context of the passage highlighted in the screen sniped image below: -


Now considering the meaning of the highlighted Strong Numbers for the Greek roots for the Greek roots we have: -
G891,3757,4138,1484 and 1535: -











With respect to the above, I would suggest that the highlighted section of the interlinear should be paraphrased into English in the following manner: -

". . . ..Until, with respect to time, the time of the Gentiles has run its full course, after which . . ."​

which aligns with the Prophecy in Daniel 8 and which Christ also referred to in Luke 21:24 and alluded to in Luke 14:31-32 when the Gentiles will be judged in our near future for trampling God's sanctuary and His earthly hosts.

This paints a very different picture to the one that you have presented. Israel will be redeemed after the visitation of their iniquities has run its full course and end at the end of the fourth age of their existence in line Exodus 20:4-6.

Paul was not referring to Gentiles coming into the church in the distant future, as the redemption of the Israelite nation happens before the Gentiles comes trooping into God's everlasting Kingdom during the next age.

Shalom​

 

[Curtis]

Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Well I enjoy the public forum as it opens people to see differing views and how people defend them with Scripture.

Well John 3:16 standing by itself does not. but no bible verse stands or falls onits own. It is part of the whole.

And Jesus existed as God prior to His incarnation (Phil. 2) and when He became a man, He humbled or abased Himself to die for us.

He is called God IN John 1
In John 4 John declares He is equal with God.
In Is. 44 He is called Jehovah. Those are but a few.

Jesus as the God-man is God the Fathers only begotten son. Because He was begotten in Mary by God the Holy Spirit!

Remember god is both a person and an attribute of three in the bible.

The Bible does not contradict itself sir. He is not called God in John 1, no where in the Bible is he referred to as equal to God, he is never called Jehovah. What hope would you have if Jesus is a liar sir? Mk 10:40;13:32 It would explain a lot of things however.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I see what you're saying with this which I "clipped." Which lines up with the rest of your post.
But this is what I'm hearing;
2 Peter 3:4
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
In which things like this happens.
Isaiah 28:15
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

I don't agree at all with your timeline, as it seems the per usual proverbial "kicking the can down the road."
As for me? Provoking Israel to jealousy would indicate that something must needs be done by "a", or group of gentiles, that would give Israel such cause for wonderment or amazement that they would not by anyone that is not of the synagogue of satan, be able in refusing Jesus Christ, with a clear conscious.
This would happen before Christ being sent, or allowed to come back!

Doncha think it's past time that gentiles start singing a new song?
A song which would provoke (shame) Israel into seeing the Father in us via Christ?
Cuz onced Christ gets here?
It's game over!
Cuz then?
They'll be the ones taught and ruled with a rod of iron.

The verse prior to 2 Pet. 3:4 is talking about the scoffers coming im the end times. There are scoffers across the board. Atheists are scoffers. Unbelievers abound everywhere, including Israel. But what relevance does this have with what God will ordain to happen, when He lifts the veil of Israel as stated in Rom. 11?
Isaiah 28 starts with the drunkards of Ephraim who have made a pact with Sheol. Those who occupy Jerusalem. Then God places a cornerstone there (Christ) and the Jews will stumble over it and have to this day. But whoever believes, will be saved.
Forget about provoking the Jews to jealousy. This was an act of God and their enlightenment will also be.
Singing a new song? 1990 years if evangelism hasn't worked, only for a small percentage. God sends Two Witnesses ....amd He lifts their veils. When Moses of read, the veil covers their head. I guess something causes them to finally take the New Covenant seriously.
We are talking about miraculous events.
But you can go over there and sing them a song if you'd like - don't it think it will matter much.
They have heard all our wonderful songs about JESUS. Christmas songs are some of the most joyous and inspirational songs. Hymnals as well. Of course you are not really talking about music. Some new evangelical tactic? No, God will be fulfilling His covenant with them, by His power. Even so, many Jews will still not believe and they will be judged.

 

[NayborBear]

The verse prior to 2 Pet. 3:4 is talking about the scoffers coming im the end times. There are scoffers across the board. Atheists are scoffers. Unbelievers abound everywhere, including Israel. But what relevance does this have with what God will ordain to happen, when He lifts the veil of Israel as stated in Rom. 11?
Isaiah 28 starts with the drunkards of Ephraim who have made a pact with Sheol. Those who occupy Jerusalem. Then God places a cornerstone there (Christ) and the Jews will stumble over it and have to this day. But whoever believes, will be saved.
Forget about provoking the Jews to jealousy. This was an act of God and their enlightenment will also be.
Singing a new song? 1990 years if evangelism hasn't worked, only for a small percentage. God sends Two Witnesses ....amd He lifts their veils. When Moses of read, the veil covers their head. I guess something causes them to finally take the New Covenant seriously.
We are talking about miraculous events.
But you can go over there and sing them a song if you'd like - don't it think it will matter much.
They have heard all our wonderful songs about JESUS. Christmas songs are some of the most joyous and inspirational songs. Hymnals as well. Of course you are not really talking about music. Some new evangelical tactic? No, God will be fulfilling His covenant with them, by His power. Even so, many Jews will still not believe and they will be judged.

After all these several exchanges we've had, you still can't "see" what I'm trying to impart?

Cuz, I do see what you are saying, and all the inhibitions you keep placing, not only in the Father's way, but also the government that Christ bares on His shoulders from "giving increase!"
I really shouldn't be "looking down my nose" at the sheep of Christ. For even Jesus said He'll raise you up in the last day. Of course "last day" could very well mean at the "Great White Throne" judgement.

These "exchanges/observations" I make, are not only for ones' like yourself. But, more for those believers who ask questions that require more faith, Not only in Christ, but in the God and Father of Christ.
Not saying you couldn't be!
Gotta "Sherlock" it out!

 

[tsr]

It’s far too easy to step back into the past the moment you step back into your church building. The biggest mistake most leaders made comes from the emotional rush to get back into a facility, see everyone again, and assemble their teams and get back to ‘normal’

One major factor is their view of the pastor. They perceive the pastor to be judgmental, insincere, and lacking good preaching abilities. It’s interesting to note that only 15% of those who feel displeasure with the church say it’s due to a moral or ethical failure of the church leadership.

And churches with high expectations of their members are more likely to draw people back into the fold. The de-churched may have left due to insincerity, but it’s the high standards and expectations that draw them back. People want to serve and know that they are contributing something significant.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

This paints a very different picture to the one that you have presented. Israel will be redeemed after the visitation of their iniquities has run its full course and end at the end of the fourth age of their existence in line Exodus 20:4-6.

Paul was not referring to Gentiles coming into the church in the distant future, as the redemption of the Israelite nation happens before the Gentiles comes trooping into God's everlasting Kingdom during the next age.

I guess the Greek Interlineary study can't help you discern scripture. You are twisting the meaning. You are claiming that Israel's iniquities must reach their fullness, as if they are the Gentiles referred to? Huh?
Romans 11 is referring to the time when fullness of the Church is complete. How can you guys not see that. The whole premise of the chapter is that salvation came to the Gentiles (Church) because some branches were broken off so that we could be grafted in AND when the Church (those Gentiles who have been saved reach their full numbers) then the end will come. Jesus reiterates when the end will come in Matt. 24:14, when the gospel is finally preached to the entire world.,
This is when Israel will be saved.
And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

Since variations of meanings are offered when exegeting and using the Greek, one can pick which ones work for them as if to give some kind of sophmorish lesson. If you don't like the literal meaning, okay lets shift to the allegorical meaning, the spiritual meaning ... If a word has several meanings, lets pick the one that works for our view. Unless you have a PHD in Christian theology, specializing in Hermeneutics, your exegesis will be lacking. Even then, all scripture us spiritually discerned.
You guys are wrestling with Romans 11, you evidently don't like what it is says so are trying to interpret it another way. Why don't you just rip the page out of your book and forget about it. God will take care if it.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Spare me the sophmorish lesson. Since variations of meanings are offered when exegeting and using the Greek, one can pick which ones work for them. If you don't like the literal meaning, okay lets shift to the figurative meaning. If a word has several meanings, lets pick the one that works. Unless you have a PHD in Christian theology, specializing in Hermeneutics, your exegesis will be lacking. Even then, all scripture is spiritually discerned. Take it at face value.

This paints a very different picture to the one that you have presented. Israel will be redeemed after the visitation of their iniquities has run its full course and end at the end of the fourth age of their existence in line Exodus 20:4-6.

Paul was not referring to Gentiles coming into the church in the distant future, as the redemption of the Israelite nation happens before the Gentiles comes trooping into God's everlasting Kingdom during the next age.

I guess the Greek Interlineary study can't help you discern scripture. You are twisting the meaning. You are claiming that Israel's iniquities must reach their fullness, as if they are the Gentiles referred to? Huh?
I have sensed anti-Semitism throughout this forum. Really, half the Christians out there seem to be against the Jews. God says He has not discarded them, He loves them. But many Christians hold to this Replacement theology, that the Church replaced Israel.
Romans 11 is referring to the time when fullness of the Church is complete. How can you guys not see that. The whole premise of the chapter is that salvation came to the Gentiles because some branches were broken off so that we could be grafted in AND when the Church (those Gentiles who have been saved reach their full numbers) then the end will come. Jesus reiterates when the end will come in Matt. 24:14, when the gospel is finally preached to the entire world. That is the fullness, that is the time, when all who are in the Book if Life are accounted for - then the last trumpet blows.
This is when Israel will be saved, either prior to the last trumpet or when every eye sees Him.

"And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

'The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob';
“and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.” Rom. 11:26, 27

You guys are wrestling with Romans 11, you evidently don't like what it is says so are trying to interpret it another way. Why don't you just rip the page out of your book and forget about it. God will take care if it.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

!

After all these several exchanges we've had, you still can't "see" what I'm trying to impart?

Well you communicate in a round about way, like a poet or trying to present the case as if you are Sherlock Holmes.
You already concluded what this was all about in your first post:
"In conclusion?
God BLESS those parents in Louden County, Virginia."
Far out man ... deep.
Oh, and your statement, "all the inhibitions you keep placing, not only in the Father's way, but also the government that Christ bares on His shoulders from "giving increase!"
What the check are you talking about?
Beam me up Scotty!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The Bible does not contradict itself sir. He is not called God in John 1, no where in the Bible is he referred to as equal to God, he is never called Jehovah. What hope would you have if Jesus is a liar sir? Mk 10:40;13:32 It would explain a lot of things however.

Well the Bible does not contradict itself and Jesus is not a liar!

Isaiah 44:6
King James Version

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

We both know Lord here is Yahweh in the original Hebrew.

2 People called Yahweh.
Yahweh 1--King of Israel
Yahweh 2 Yahweh of hosts who is Yahweh #1's redeemer for Israel and gentiles.

John 1:1
King James Version

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 5:17-19
King James Version

17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

As you see- the bible does not contradict itself, Jesus does not lie and the Bible declares Jesus God!

 

[Curtis]

The Bible does not contradict itself sir. He is not called God in John 1, no where in the Bible is he referred to as equal to God, he is never called Jehovah. What hope would you have if Jesus is a liar sir? Mk 10:40;13:32 It would explain a lot of things however.

Who is Jesus?


Jesus is the one born of a virgin in Isaiah, who is the mighty God and everlasting Father. Isaiah 9:6


He is co-creator of the world, and of everything that was made in the beginning in Genesis 1.

John 1:1,10,14 Colossians 1:16-17


To leave heaven and come to earth as a man, He voluntarily left the form of God that He had by His nature, and emptied Himself, setting aside all use of His divine power, and took the form of a humble servant. Philippians 2:6-7


Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,

Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Php 2:7 but EMPTIED himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.


After He left Gods form to take mans form, Yahweh became the Father of Jesus when He made a body for Him to be born in.
Hebrews 10:5


Mary is the woman chosen by God to birth the body Yahweh made.


As a man on earth who set aside all use of His divine power, Jesus didn’t start His ministry of healing the sick, raising the dead, and casting out demons, until He received the Holy Spirit at His baptism. Matthew 3:17


He thereafter did His miracles by the Dunamis power of the Holy Spirit, that Father Yahweh anointed Him with. Acts 10:38


His main purpose for coming to earth as a man, was to to call sinners unto repentance; and give His life a ransom for many.
Luke 5:32 Mark 10:45


He died physically on a cross, the sinless one for sinners, and took our place.


While His physical body was in a tomb on the surface of the earth, His spirit descended into the heart of the earth, where He preached to the spirits in prison. 1 Peter 3:19 ; Ephesians 4:9-10



These spirits were the Old Testament righteous dead, who were held in a holding chamber in hades, because no soul could ascend to heaven until Messiah atoned for sins.


This chamber was called Abraham’s bosom, aka paradise, which is where the thief on the cross went. Luke 16:22-26


When He rose, he emptied out paradise, which is why many saints also arose and went into the city after His resurrection. Matthew 27 53


His resurrection was bodily, and He appeared for 40 days to His followers before He ascended visibly and bodily to heaven on a cloud from Mount Olive - and this same Jesus will return to mount Olive at His second coming, exactly the same as He left, and will bring all the saints from heaven, with Him. Zechariah 14:5


Now paradise is in heaven, and souls of the redeemed go straight to heaven, and Jesus will bring those souls from heaven with Him at His second coming to receive their resurrected bodies. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

 

[Jay Ross]

Since variations of meanings are offered when exegeting and using the Greek, one can pick which ones work for them as if to give some kind of sophmorish lesson. If you don't like the literal meaning, okay lets shift to the allegorical meaning, the spiritual meaning ... If a word has several meanings, lets pick the one that works for our view. Unless you have a PHD in Christian theology, specializing in Hermeneutics, your exegesis will be lacking. Even then, all scripture us spiritually discerned.
You guys are wrestling with Romans 11, you evidently don't like what it is says so are trying to interpret it another way. Why don't you just rip the page out of your book and forget about it. God will take care if it.

Ronald, why attach the person rather than provide a convincing argument as to what Paul had actually written in the Greek Text and provide the context of the actual words themselves. Is it because that is the only defence you know of and can use to defend your post above.

As for lumping me with the, and I assume, SDA's or Jehovah Witnesses, please be advised that I do not fit any of those cults like I do not fit into the Pre-Trib Cult or the reformational cults either.

I can only perceive that your rebuttal demonstrated your lack of a knowledge base to provide the basis as to how the English translation of the Greek Text should have been paraphrased in your opinion. I presented how I would paraphrase the last portion of verse 25, why do you not present your case based on the interlinear Greek word definitions provided above.

As for ripping this particular page out of my Bible and forgetting it, I have not done that. What I have done is provided the rational as to why I believe that your accepted "Paraphrase" of Paul's words is not the case as you have presented them.

I would welcome your words of wisdom if you can provide the evidence to cause me to change my understanding.

Providing the evidence for me to change my mind will go much further and achieve much more than simply just personal attacks on my person.

I await your more reasoned rebuttal.

Shalom

 

[Stumpmaster]

Hebrews 6:1 NKJV
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God

Hi Marc,
The context of Hebrews 6 is interesting to say the least. The Hebrews to whom the epistle was addressed had among them some adherents to Judaism who were struggling with the strong meat of the Gospel and its message of salvation through Christ the Son of God. *Chapter 5 thus leads into the discussion of Chapter 6 about persons having the 6-part foundation already laid not needing to redo it, but to build on it, going on to perfection (v1) and things that accompany salvation (v 9).

*NKJV Heb 5:9-14 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, (10) called by God as High Priest "ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK," (11) of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. (12) For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. (13) For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. (14) But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

I must ask what it is you are referring to as the biggest mistake of the ekklesia of God. Is it not building on the prescribed foundation?