That's sweet AD.
But actually, the more I read the more I don't like the God I know is in your theology. He is not the same God I meet up with in the New Testament.
Biblical Foreknowledge
- Thread starter Anthony D'Arienzo
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But actually, the more I read the more I don't like the God I know is in your theology. He is not the same God I meet up with in the New Testament.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
You error in thinking that no one here has had dealings with Calvinists.
I have personally been involved with Law Enforcement Officers to rescues women and children from them. It is not a benign religion. Children passing notes in church and grocery stores, and Walmart for help.
Care to explain to everyone here why there are no Calvinist females on this site?
The Calvinist big lie; this one I have heard time and time again from Calvinists. They try to cover up the evil in their beliefs by describing predestination as God’s ability of clairvoyance. That he only controls what he knows is going to happen. This works! They con thousands with this deception. People exiting Calvinist churches say they have been fed this lie for years. Even to their own congregations they cover up the sinister nature of their doctrine. For the rest they convince them that it is right and godly to damn people before they are born.
God can do anything….He just chooses not to do evil. There is no defense for the belief that God damns people before they born. If I forced you to murder someone and then executed you for it, is this fair? Is this what you consider right and wrong? A poor twist mind it is, not to see that Calvinism is evil from start to finish.
Good point @GodsGrace
If God FOREKNEW (which He did) that Adam was going to sin and all the misery that would be in the future of mankind --- why did He create us to begin with?
If God predestined everything why did He say that He was sorry he made Man.
I have personally been involved with Law Enforcement Officers to rescues women and children from them. It is not a benign religion. Children passing notes in church and grocery stores, and Walmart for help.
Care to explain to everyone here why there are no Calvinist females on this site?
The Calvinist big lie; this one I have heard time and time again from Calvinists. They try to cover up the evil in their beliefs by describing predestination as God’s ability of clairvoyance. That he only controls what he knows is going to happen. This works! They con thousands with this deception. People exiting Calvinist churches say they have been fed this lie for years. Even to their own congregations they cover up the sinister nature of their doctrine. For the rest they convince them that it is right and godly to damn people before they are born.
God can do anything….He just chooses not to do evil. There is no defense for the belief that God damns people before they born. If I forced you to murder someone and then executed you for it, is this fair? Is this what you consider right and wrong? A poor twist mind it is, not to see that Calvinism is evil from start to finish.
Good point @GodsGrace
If God FOREKNEW (which He did) that Adam was going to sin and all the misery that would be in the future of mankind --- why did He create us to begin with?
If God predestined everything why did He say that He was sorry he made Man.
Hey A....
you can't just post a link.
Unless it's to back up something you say.
IF you understand something...
you must be able to explain it in your own words.
I asked you very specific questions for a reason.
Do you think you could answer them or not?
(post 192)
But he is indeed GG, The God of John 3:16 is the God who destroyed the world of the ungodly with a worldwide flood
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John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
Some (paticularly now) do. They say that a person is regenerated (given a new heart; made a new creature; made to be spiritually alive) and then they believe.
Here you need to be honest with Scripture. Jesus did not tell Nicodemus that he must be born again in order to be saved or in order to believe. Jesus said one must be born again (or born from above) to see/ enter the kingdom of God. This is what I mean by being faithful to God's Word regardless of our theological leanings.
you asked what i meant by Confessing Churches..save the link and as time permits, open them up one at a time and see what the church has believed and CONFESSED.
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
It is philosophical (and a lot depends on how the issue is examined). Definitely not an issue to divide.
Ok, now to the handshake....you put your left hand in, you take your left hand out, you put your left hand in and you shake it all about.
So you're proud of the fact that you serve a God that wipes out mankind and perhaps this requires a special attrobite only you have and no other Christian can accept?
I'm going to say something rather shocking here....
Are you aware that the history in the bible begins with Abraham?
This is not to say that the flood did not happen because there's evidence of it.
But it does tell us that FOUR THOUSAND YEARS AGO, 4,000 years ago...
JUST let that SINK IN for a moment....
People attributed everything that happened to God...
Even what He did not directly cause to happen.
We should be intelligent enough to discern what our God would and would not do.
Jesus came so that we may come to know the one true God.
Jesus revealed Him to us in a much better way than He was revealed in the O.T.
This is JonC denying the reality of what Jesus described as the new birth , being born from above.
No biblical Calvinist denies regeneration happens at the same time as New Birth.
We live in a day when anyone can claim anything, but we see that JonC means "he is a different kind".
hey listen, more power to JonC.... he can say he is anything he wants to claim...but he is not close to being able to give actaul Calvinism accurately unless he quotes one. We see instead a denial here, another denial there.
He did not really answer enoch11 of grail hunter, ,or jane 22...he danced around but did not answer what they asked.
Oh for goodness sake AD...
Do you think I started studying Christianity yesterday?
Say what you want to say....
Don't send me to links.
Thanks.
P.S. I'm trying to get you to think about what the world was like pre Luther/Calvin. There was a church even then you know...there was one right after Jesus died and resurrected. Perhaps YOU can find out what persons believed back then that studied WITH THE APOSTLES!
It is not philosophical...it is biblical and direct teaching, not to be explained away by carnal philosophy and body snatchers,lol
Did you know that catholic priests MUST take two years of philosophy - and I think it's being changed to 3...not sure. Ditto for pastors.
It's two different ways of coming to understand what we're doing here.
I've never studied philosophy, but it does come up in discussing theology.
Actually, The Body Snatchers was a good example.
A picture is worth a thousand words...
I totally agree GG I was more asking for sake of discussion.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Yes,,,it could get pretty ridiculous...to say the least.
God does not speak against Himself.
Jesus said a house divided will not stand...
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
It (Calvinism) is a combination of Scripture and philosophy/ human reasoning. Spurgeon spoke of this fact in "God's Will". The reason is Calvinism (and any of these systems) are products of Systematic Theology (which by definition incorporates reasoning and philosophy).
When we start discussing God's work and thoughts from eternity past then we are drifting from solid ground.
The problem comes in with the cultists. They believe that God revealed to them higher truths of Scripture and if only one would devote themselves to prayer and diligently seek, perhaps God would lead them down the same path of enlightenment. It dies mot matter if it is magic glasses or Calvinism, the mentality is the same.
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
No, Anthony. This was John Caldwell saying that Jesus told Nicodemus that no one enters the Kingdom except he be born again.
My comment was you were not being honest with God's word with the claim the passage stated one must be born again in order to believe.
I am saying you need to deal with Scripture as if it were God's Word because it is.
John Caldwell,
No one has done that here.
.
28 And we have known that to those loving God all things do work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose;
29 because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;
30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.
The people God foreknew did not love God first; They were guilty sinners, rebels. As a result of being justified they have peace with God and love Him, so the passage explains how these individuals came to LOVE GOD>
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
It is the biblical teaching of Foreknowledge JONC, looks like you did not read the calvinist Aw.Pink
The fact is that “foreknowledge” is never used in Scripture in connection with events or actions; instead, it always has reference to persons . It is persons God is said to “foreknow,” not the actions of those persons. In proof of this we shall now quote each passage where this expression is found.
Weigh well the pronoun that is used here. It is not what He did foreknow, but whom He did.
It is not the surrendering of their wills nor the believing of their hearts but the persons themselves, which is here in view. “God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew” ( Rom. 11:2).
Now in view of these passages (and there are no more) what scriptural ground is there for anyone saying God“foreknew” the acts of certain ones, viz., their “repenting and believing,” and that because of those acts He elected them unto salvation? The answer is, None whatever. Scripture never speaks of repentance and faith as being foreseen or foreknown by God. Truly, He didknow from all eternity that certain ones would repent and believe, yet this is not what Scripture refers to as the object of God’s “foreknowledge.” The word uniformly refers to God’s foreknowing persons ; then let us “hold fast the form of sound words” ( 2 Tim. 1:13).
Another thing to which we desire to call particular attention is that the first two passages quoted above show plainly and teach implicitly that God’s “foreknowledge” is not causative , that instead, something else lies behind, precedes it, and that something is His own sovereign decree . Christ was “delivered by the (1) determinate counsel and (2) foreknowledge of God.” ( Acts 2:23).
His “counsel” or decree was the ground of His foreknowledge. So again in Rom.8:29. That verse opens with the word “for,” which tells us to look back to what immediately precedes. What, then, does the previous verse say? This, “all things worktogether for good to them...who are the called according to His purpose.” Thus God’s foreknowledge is based upon His purpose or decree (see Psa.2:7).
God foreknows what will be because He has decreed what shall be . It is therefore a reversing of the order of Scripture, a putting of the cart before the horse, to affirm that God elects because He foreknows people. The truth is, He “foreknows” because He has elected . This removes the ground or cause of election from outside the creature, and places it in God’s own sovereign will. God purposed in Himself to elect a certain people, not because of anything good in them or from them, either actual or foreseen, but solely out of His own mere pleasure. As to why He chose the ones He did, we do not know, and can only say, “Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Thy sight.” The plain truth of Rom. 8:29 is that God, before the foundation of the world, singled out certain sinners and appointed them unto salvation ( 2 Thess. 2:13). This is clear from the concluding words of the verse: “Predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son,” etc. God did not predestinate those whom He foreknew were “conformed,” but, on the contrary, those whom He “foreknew” (i.e., loved and elected) He predestinated to be conformed. Their conformity to Christ is not the cause, but the effect of God’s foreknowledge and predestination.
The passage teaches in a positive way biblical foreknowledge. The fact that it does correct the error of a mere prescience is helpful. Look on the boards we have been on, everyone who opposes the doctrines of grace brings up the false view.
from Leighton Flowers to the rank and file believer.
Frankly, it seems clear to me and others you lean the wrong way each time. I will defend your right to hold errant views, but I will not support such error.
Now that being said JonC...when i oppose the false teaching and ideas, that does not mean I am silencing anyone as is why I was allegedly put on sabbatical leave. this is a false understanding and that leads to censorship,
end of part 1 of a two part answer;
No one has done that here.
.
The text says whom 4 times;
28 And we have known that to those loving God all things do work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose;
29 because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;
30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.
You word things in a vague way,
The people God foreknew did not love God first; They were guilty sinners, rebels. As a result of being justified they have peace with God and love Him, so the passage explains how these individuals came to LOVE GOD>
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
It is the biblical teaching of Foreknowledge JONC, looks like you did not read the calvinist Aw.Pink
The fact is that “foreknowledge” is never used in Scripture in connection with events or actions; instead, it always has reference to persons . It is persons God is said to “foreknow,” not the actions of those persons. In proof of this we shall now quote each passage where this expression is found.
Weigh well the pronoun that is used here. It is not what He did foreknow, but whom He did.
It is not the surrendering of their wills nor the believing of their hearts but the persons themselves, which is here in view. “God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew” ( Rom. 11:2).
Now in view of these passages (and there are no more) what scriptural ground is there for anyone saying God“foreknew” the acts of certain ones, viz., their “repenting and believing,” and that because of those acts He elected them unto salvation? The answer is, None whatever. Scripture never speaks of repentance and faith as being foreseen or foreknown by God. Truly, He didknow from all eternity that certain ones would repent and believe, yet this is not what Scripture refers to as the object of God’s “foreknowledge.” The word uniformly refers to God’s foreknowing persons ; then let us “hold fast the form of sound words” ( 2 Tim. 1:13).
Another thing to which we desire to call particular attention is that the first two passages quoted above show plainly and teach implicitly that God’s “foreknowledge” is not causative , that instead, something else lies behind, precedes it, and that something is His own sovereign decree . Christ was “delivered by the (1) determinate counsel and (2) foreknowledge of God.” ( Acts 2:23).
His “counsel” or decree was the ground of His foreknowledge. So again in Rom.8:29. That verse opens with the word “for,” which tells us to look back to what immediately precedes. What, then, does the previous verse say? This, “all things worktogether for good to them...who are the called according to His purpose.” Thus God’s foreknowledge is based upon His purpose or decree (see Psa.2:7).
God foreknows what will be because He has decreed what shall be . It is therefore a reversing of the order of Scripture, a putting of the cart before the horse, to affirm that God elects because He foreknows people. The truth is, He “foreknows” because He has elected . This removes the ground or cause of election from outside the creature, and places it in God’s own sovereign will. God purposed in Himself to elect a certain people, not because of anything good in them or from them, either actual or foreseen, but solely out of His own mere pleasure. As to why He chose the ones He did, we do not know, and can only say, “Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Thy sight.” The plain truth of Rom. 8:29 is that God, before the foundation of the world, singled out certain sinners and appointed them unto salvation ( 2 Thess. 2:13). This is clear from the concluding words of the verse: “Predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son,” etc. God did not predestinate those whom He foreknew were “conformed,” but, on the contrary, those whom He “foreknew” (i.e., loved and elected) He predestinated to be conformed. Their conformity to Christ is not the cause, but the effect of God’s foreknowledge and predestination.
The passage teaches in a positive way biblical foreknowledge. The fact that it does correct the error of a mere prescience is helpful. Look on the boards we have been on, everyone who opposes the doctrines of grace brings up the false view.
from Leighton Flowers to the rank and file believer.
Frankly, it seems clear to me and others you lean the wrong way each time. I will defend your right to hold errant views, but I will not support such error.
Now that being said JonC...when i oppose the false teaching and ideas, that does not mean I am silencing anyone as is why I was allegedly put on sabbatical leave. this is a false understanding and that leads to censorship,
end of part 1 of a two part answer;
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