Atheist objections to evidence for God's existence

[bbyrd009]

I guess I don't understand your point then.

fair enough, I guess the point of Scripture is intentionally occluded also. Fwiw it is not hard to see that the OT is the record of the failure of a religion, David and Solomon were both condemned for their many sins, the kingdom was removed from Solomon, etc. Took like 300 years to get rid of all the pagan shrines he erected, to Ashtaroth, even Molech! etc

 

[Vince]

oh, you are a firm Believer, Vince, I pay no attention to your declarations about what you have chosen to believe or not believe, and I guess we already went over this? You have beliefs--that can easily be shown to actually be Absolute Truths, no less--and I have beliefs, and beliefs just are not relevant, as you say, see I am agreeing with you now. Beliefs do not save anyone, there is no judgement for beliefs, etc, and this is just another distraction wadr

I believe when I am convinced of something either on evidence. That evidence could be good or bad or my reasons for believing could be good or bad reasons. But without evidence or reasons no one is convinced of anything. We cannot choose to believe something we believe to be false. So I am a firm believer in things and not others.

 

[bbyrd009]

It is not obvious that just because we don't know things to assume a god then did it. That is illogical reasoning. Miracles are indistinguishable from sufficiently advanced technology we cannot understand. How do we know a miracle over some process we don't yet understand.

Yes Vince, miracles are for the lost, and all the "gods" I know have fallen, ok. We ar to be "the gods," as Scripture makes plain I guess.

 

[Vince]

Yes Vince, I am aware that that is a simplified illustration, not meant to tell an entire story ok
any metaphor or simile can be broken if you look hard enough, sure

?? You used entropy to imply that it is obvious that a god must have been involved in creation because it has order. Now you are saying that the analogy does not work? What was the purpose?

 

[bbyrd009]

I believe when I am convinced of something either on evidence. That evidence could be good or bad or my reasons for believing could be good or bad reasons. But without evidence or reasons no one is convinced of anything. We cannot choose to believe something we believe to be false. So I am a firm believer in things and not others.

so then what is the problem?

test everything, keep what is good

 

[bbyrd009]

?? You used entropy to imply that it is obvious that a god must have been involved in creation because it has order. Now you are saying that the analogy does not work? What was the purpose?

The analogy works fine, at least until you can create life from elements I guess.

A point there might be to understand your own definition of "God," which I certainly reject also;
or, you might give us your functional definition of God here, if you like. Not "a god," ok, "God"

 

[bbyrd009]

Our beliefs are not a choice, we are convinced or we are not convinced.

well vinnie I guess if you have an overwhelming desire to become an immortal, or even have some other strong desire, your beliefs could become amazingly choicy really fast, ok. You might note that your beliefs are centered on today, whereas most Believers beliefs are almost exclusively about yesterday or tomorrow. Imo you are describing "faith" up there, which has unfortunately become a religious word now. I get on planes Bc I have faith that they will work, not bc I understand how they work. Well, I'm a former aviation machinists mate, but nevermind

 

[Vince]

The analogy works fine, at least until you can create life from elements I guess.

A point there might be to understand your own definition of "God," which I certainly reject also;
or, you might give us your functional definition of God here, if you like. Not "a god," ok, "God"

I don't have a definition for God. How can I know what a god would be like if there is no evidence one exists? I take my definition from theists that propose a god and then see if there is evidence to warrant a belief.

 

[Vince]

well vinnie I guess if you have an overwhelming desire to become an immortal, or even have some other strong desire, your beliefs could become amazingly choicy really fast, ok. You might note that your beliefs are centered on today, whereas most Believers beliefs are almost exclusively about yesterday or tomorrow. Imo you are describing "faith" up there, which has unfortunately become a religious word now. I get on planes Bc I have faith that they will work, not bc I understand how they work. Well, I'm a former aviation machinists mate, but nevermind

No, I get on a plane because it has been demonstrated over and over again that they are safe. Not because I have faith they will work. That belief is based on evidence not faith.

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't have a definition for God. How can I know what a god would be like if there is no evidence one exists? I take my definition from theists that propose a god and then see if there is evidence to warrant a belief.

So then, you take your def of God from what the Bible calls "the deceived" and are then looking for evidence to warrant a "belief," which serves no purpose?
Could you provide your understanding of this definition of God as you understand it, ty
And maybe also what you think a "belief" in God might be any good for, if you would

 

[Vince]

So then, you take your def of God from what the Bible calls "the deceived" and are then looking for evidence to warrant a "belief," which serves no purpose?
Could you provide your understanding of this definition of God as you understand it, ty

Like I said I have no idea what a god would be like.

And maybe also what you think a "belief" in God might be any good for, if you would

Christians tell me a belief in god is good for salvation and for instruction on how to live in this life.

 

[bbyrd009]

No, I get on a plane because it has been demonstrated over and over again that they are safe. Not because I have faith they will work. That belief is based on evidence not faith.

Vince, you have "faith" in airplanes bc it has been demonstrated that they are um "safe" like you say, regardless of whether you choose to deem that "faith" or not ok, that's really a fine description of Paul's def of faith imo. But I hope you understand that I have no objection if you feel led to come and try to convince Believers that there is no God, too. I guess I just don't really see a point

 

[bbyrd009]

Like I said I have no idea what a god would be like.

yet you confidently claim that there is none. ok. Fwiw i tell you that "no idea what God would be like" is a much better, much more Scriptural understanding of God than most, ok

Christians tell me a belief in god is good for salvation and for instruction on how to live in this life.

wadr so what? Many will cry 'Lord, Lord'
So iow "Christian" there and particularly I guess "salvation" too are really poorly defined at best, right. Is this a good way for a scientist to proceed, do you think?
What do you mean by "salvation" there Vince?
You and your sons will be here with me
No one has ever gone up to heaven
There is only One Immortal

now define "salvation" if you would, ty

 

[Vince]

Vince, you have "faith" in airplanes bc it has been demonstrated that they are um "safe" like you say, regardless of whether you choose to deem that "faith" or not ok, that's really a fine description of Paul's def of faith imo. But I hope you understand that I have no objection if you feel led to come and try to convince Believers that there is no God, too. I guess I just don't really see a point

Faith is believing without evidence as the bible defines. Trusting a plane will fly is based on sufficient evidence. If someone came to me with a flying machine that ran on popcorn I would not fly on that because it has not been demonstrated safe to do so. That would be faith if I flew on that. Not so with planes.

 

[Vince]

yet you confidently claim that there is none. ok.

No, no, no,no,no. How many times do I have to clarify what I believe? I have never said god does not exist. I have clarified my position many times but Christians here keep telling me I deny a god exists. This is a lie and not true.



Fwiw i tell you that "no idea what God would be like" is a much better, much more Scriptural understanding of God than most, ok
wadr so what? Many will cry 'Lord, Lord'
So iow "Christian" there and particularly I guess "salvation" too are really poorly defined at best, right. Is this a good way for a scientist to proceed, do you think?[/quote]No. That is why I don't. I have told you many times I don't know what a god would be like. I am just taking theists word for it.

What do you mean by "salvation" there Vince?
You and your sons will be here with me
No one has ever gone up to heaven
There is only One Immortal

now define "salvation" if you would, ty

No. That is for the theist who believes in it to define and others to investigate the claim.

 

[bbyrd009]

Faith is believing without evidence as the bible defines.

so you say

2 Peter 3:16 Lexicon: as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

faith has nothing to do with believing, believe it or not. They are two different concepts entirely, at least in Scripture. Believers have a diff perception of course, yes.

this can be easily demonstrated by asking someone what their "beliefs" are, registering that all--not many, not most--of their practical beliefs involve either the past or the future, and then basically going from there?

 

[bbyrd009]

No, no, no,no,no. How many times do I have to clarify what I believe? I have never said god does not exist. I have clarified my position many times but Christians here keep telling me I deny a god exists. This is a lie and not true.

Fwiw i tell you that "no idea what God would be like" is a much better, much more Scriptural understanding of God than most, ok
wadr so what? Many will cry 'Lord, Lord'
So iow "Christian" there and particularly I guess "salvation" too are really poorly defined at best, right. Is this a good way for a scientist to proceed, do you think?

No. That is why I don't. I have told you many times I don't know what a god would be like. I am just taking theists word for it.


No. That is for the theist who believes in it to define and others to investigate the claim.

ok, ty

at least we have established that you do in fact have beliefs, and also that you consider them to be important in some way

 

[Deborah_]

Faith is believing without evidence as the bible defines.

Where does the Bible define faith as "believing without evidence"?

Jesus never expected people to believe in Him without evidence. ("Evidence" is not the same thing as "proof", of course)

 

[farouk]

Where does the Bible define faith as "believing without evidence"?

Jesus never expected people to believe in Him without evidence. ("Evidence" is not the same thing as "proof", of course)

Hebrews 11.1: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

 

[Nancy]

Nancy,

God does want all to come to repentance, but stubborn, sinful wills get in the way and resist God's drawing and promptings.

Oz

Oh yes, agreed. And that is why there will be very few who take the narrow road. They loved their sin more than God. Even though God wishes something does not mean it will happen as, if you believe He gave us free will to "Choose this day whom you will serve.", then God knows that many have and will continue to reject Him.
In other words Oz, we agree :)