Are you sending your neighbors to Hell?

[Pancho Frijoles]

To clarify my personal understanding of universalism, I would like to start recognizing two things:

1. The belief in the annihilation or elimination of wicked people is well grounded in the Bible. You have every reason to believe what you believe as there is plenty evidence in the Bible about the destruction of evil or evildoers. Therefore, by no means this is a criticism to your position as "wrong" or "non-biblical".

2. Some Christians and Christian theologians have upheld some way of universalism through centuries. So, although I am not a Christian, this position should not be considered as alien to Christianism.

Having said that, I believe in hell ( a state of the soul)
I believe in God's justice and punishment.
I believe that no wicked person can enter God's presence... while being wicked.
The Biblical references to the destruction of evildoers, for me, imply the destruction of these people as evildoers... meaning, the dissaperance of wickedness in their souls.

My universalist position stems from these asssumptions:

• God's purpose for men is salvation. A victorious God is a God that sees his purpose fulfilled, not frustrated.
• God has all the time, all the wisdom, and all the willingness to attract every single human being to Him, voluntarily. In other words, He wants to do it, and He knows how to do it.
• A soul is always a soul. Meaning, a soul can think, ponder, consider, wish, yearn for, and react. The story of Lazarus and the rich show how a wicked person in hell is subject to God's explanation of how he came to this situation... is able to understand such explanation and to wish this situation not to happen to his beloved ones.
• Punishment is not only the expression of God's justice, but of God's love. His mercy is not in opposition to his justice. Therefore, there should be a way in which both justice is met and mercy is applied.

 

[Matthias]

Jesus of Nazareth is the only human person so far to be clothed with immortality. Others will be, when they are bodily resurrected from gravedom, or changed in the twinkling of an eye, as he returns.

All will eventually be bodily resurrected from the grave but not all will be clothed with immortality.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

You will rejoice to see your family in hell? That’s another strike against eternal conscious torment as far as I’m concerned.

Jesus said their torment lasts forever (Revelation 14:11)

You wouldn't be calling Jesus a liar would you???

Jesus says those that go to hell will burn in fire that shall NOT be quenched into everlasting punishment

Mark 9:43-44 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Texts like Jude 6, Matthew 8:12, Matthew 22:13, and Matthew 25:30, and 2 Thessalonians 1:9 show that darkness signifies a state of deprivation and distress, not of destruction in the sense of ceasing to exist. Only those who exist can weep and gnash their teeth, as those banished into the darkness are said to do. Luke 16:22–24 shows that fire signifies continued existence in pain as Revelation 14:10 with 19:20 and 20:10, and Matthew 13:42, 50, confirm this.

Another good case against annihilationism is ”And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever” in Rev. 14:11.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Some Christians and Christian theologians have upheld some way of universalism through centuries. So, although I am not a Christian, this position should not be considered as alien to Christianism.

If you are not a Christian then you have no standing to say anything about Christian beliefs one way or another and people wanting to learn and grow in their relationship with the Lord should ignore all that you say.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If you are not a Christian then you have no standing to say anything about Christian beliefs one way or another and people wanting to learn and grow in their relationship with the Lord should ignore all that you say.

Well, I don't think so.

1. A person of any religion could come here and post an opinion about the history of Christian thought. In this case, in regard to universal salvation. The only requirement is to do it within the rules of the Forum. If you believe I am violating any rule of the Forum, please point out to me which one, and I will thank you for that and apologize.
2. I'm saying that some people who identify themselves as Christians have held universalism, and my statement is true. You can google it right now or search in Youtube for tons of videos with Christian preachers explaining the universalist position.

 

[Matthias]

Jesus said their torment lasts forever (Revelation 14:11)

You wouldn't be calling Jesus a liar would you??? View attachment 45800

No, and had you asked me about trinitarians who also believe in conditional immortality I would have told you that they aren’t either.

Then there are the early Church Fathers. You didn’t ask if they too were calling Jesus a liar but, if you had, I would have told you that they weren’t.

Jesus says those that go to hell will burn in fire that shall NOT be quenched into everlasting punishment

Mark 9:43-44 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Texts like Jude 6, Matthew 8:12, Matthew 22:13, and Matthew 25:30, and 2 Thessalonians 1:9 show that darkness signifies a state of deprivation and distress, not of destruction in the sense of ceasing to exist. Only those who exist can weep and gnash their teeth, as those banished into the darkness are said to do. Luke 16:22–24 shows that fire signifies continued existence in pain as Revelation 14:10 with 19:20 and 20:10, and Matthew 13:42, 50, confirm this.

Another good case against annihilationism is ”And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever” in Rev. 14:11.

I invite you to see the trinitarian case for conditional immortality against ETC.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You wouldn't be calling Jesus a liar would you??? View attachment 45800

There are believers who take some verses literally.
There are believers who take some verses metaphorically.
That's all.

People who take the verses literally should not think that the other believers are calling God a liar.

In this case, @Matthias and I think that taking those verses metaphorically is more consistent with the general teachings of the Bible on God's character, and more consistent to reason and the voice of the Holy Spirit in our hearts.
That's all.

The good thing is that none of us is interested in experiencing the torment or destruction to find out. ;)

 

[Jack]

And there are many 'believers' who reject literal because they don't like what God said. Satan has been busy. Satan LOVES preaching in pulpits and attacking God's written Word! That's why we have thousands of 'Christian' churches with drastically different beliefs! I'll stick with LITERAL!

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness,

 

[Matthias]

And there are many 'believers' who reject literal because they don't like what God said. Satan has been busy. Satan LOVES preaching in pulpits and attacking God's written Word! That's why we have thousands of 'Christian' churches with drastically different beliefs! I'll stick with LITERAL!

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness,

Do you believe that everything in the Bible should be understood literally?

 

[Jack]

Do you believe that everything in the Bible should be understood literally?

Everything that's not proven otherwise by Scripture.

 

[Matthias]

Everything that's not proven otherwise by Scripture.

Scripture, as you appear to recognize and acknowledge, contains figurative and literal language.

 

[Jack]

Scripture, as you appear to recognize and acknowledge, contains figurative and literal language.

Some Scripture yes, most no. Literal YES INDEED, like everlasting Hell fire.

 

[Matthias]

And there are many 'believers' who reject literal because they don't like what God said. Satan has been busy. Satan LOVES preaching in pulpits and attacking God's written Word! That's why we have thousands of 'Christian' churches with drastically different beliefs! I'll stick with LITERAL!

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness,

Trinitarians who disagree with you on this matter are puppets of Satan in the pulpit?

 

[Matthias]

Some Scripture yes, most no. Literal YES INDEED, like everlasting Hell fire.

Do you believe then that the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are still on fire today?

 

[Jack]

Trinitarians who disagree with you on this matter are puppets of Satan in the pulpit?

No, those who disagree with what God said.

 

[Jack]

Do you believe then that the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are still on fire today?

Cities no. People / gays yes.

 

[Matthias]

No, those who disagree with what God said.

You agree with God on this issue so trinitarians who disagree with you on this issue disagree with God on this issue and are puppets of Satan in the pulpit?

 

[Jack]

You agree with God on this issue so trinitarians who disagree with you on this issue disagree with God on this issue and are puppets of Satan in the pulpit?

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness,

The warning is clear.

 

[Matthias]

Cities no.

Is that what scripture says about the citites?

People / gays yes.

How do they fit into the white throne judgement, which will occur after Jesus returns?

 

[Matthias]

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness,

The warning is clear.

Trinitarian ministers who disagree with you (and God) on this issue are ministers of Satan?