Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I'll leave these there as well as a testimony to the fact that not one of them say we are to worship Jesus. They mention "honor", "blessing" and "glory" but not "worship".
And yes, the angels do not "worship" the one whom they know is "the son of God"....even the demons acknowledge that....(Luke 4:41)
What they render to their commander in Chief is "obeisance"....honor but not worship.
Angels are fellow servants of Yahweh....all "sons of God" are in his service. Jesus is also called God's "holy servant". (Acts 4:27)
The scriptures you have been given are as plain as the nose on your face, but the mirror is not giving you an accurate reflection.
Yes my mirrors are perfect. But we will drop it and let Gods Judgment seat show who is right and who is wrong! Pro-ske-neo is worship whether you like it or not.
It is a bowing the knee. obeisance is merely a synonym.
Definition of OBEISANCE
a movement of the body made in token of respect or submission : bow; acknowledgment of another's superiority or importance : homage… See the full definition
www.merriam-webster.com
The Watchtower has taught you well how to play word games.
COMPREHENSION IS THE KEY TO UNDERSTANDING without it the truth of the word and the speech of others stays LOCKED!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
You are the one playing word games. Scripture says several men were worshipped: Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel and David as well as Jesus. Not obeisance. Worship.
But this does not go along with your doctrine. So, it's OK to change God's words to better fit your doctrine, right?
I would say they do not observe Mat 4:10 either sir, but of course it is not up to us to pronounce judgment on any faith, that is up to God, what we can do as individuals is recognize whether we want to be a part of a particular faith, based upon their teachings of course. The Bible does identify God's people without any doubt, and all a person has to do is join with God's people, but as you can see, He forces no one to serve Him, but He tells us what He wants, it is up to us to choose what we will do. And we respectfully go to those of other faiths, and speak words of the good news of the Kingdom, and if they are rightly disposed to life, God will draw them sir.
I like it myself Peter, sadly most versions of the Bible don't quote it exactly, and many think Jesus was talking about himself, which totally amazes me, but that applied not only to Jesus, but to all of his followers as well. We are all obligated to worship and serve Jehovah exclusively.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
The protestants ran from Catholicism once allowed to read the bible.
Yeah but I'm still confused over this. Can I ask an honest question? Why did the Protestants run and yet still keep the same Catholic doctrine?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Good question......who was the author of the original apostate church?....the ones who created all those false doctrines that the Protestants rejected? It was the devil who sowed the "tares" and he well knew how to corrupt an entire religious system...even one which was originally backed by God's powerful spirit.
By the time of Christ's first appearance, the Jewish faith was nothing like the original. Jesus said that they "taught the commands of men as doctrines"...but they still had the support of the vast majority of the Jewish people, even though Jesus had condemned those hypocrites to Gehenna.....eternal destruction.
Its hard to change ones core beliefs if they have been strongly entrenched since infancy. People will prefer a convenient lie to an inconvenient truth. The first Christians had a lot of backlash but they were expecting it.....
Matthew 10:34-38...
“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me."
When the Protestants broke away from the clutches of the Roman church, it lost power over those who defected and these could now read God's word for themselves....but did they unite Christianity? Far from it! They took so much of the mother church's dirty laundry with them that it was no victory for God, but at least it put God's word back into the hands of the people who could now study it for themselves.
Unfortunately men read it and interpreted it their way and drew off disciples after themselves.......such is flawed human nature.
It was time for God to start cleaning up his worship, but Protestantism wasn't it. Those who would complete the task were still a long way into the future.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
1300,s--info wasnt very readily that easy to find. They had no clue to the translating errors.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Please show me where bowing is a synonym for worship. Context is what defines the meaning. when offered to God it is worship....when offered to any man it is obeisance.....Jesus was a man.
The only one playing word games is you....Definition of OBEISANCE
a movement of the body made in token of respect or submission : bow; acknowledgment of another's superiority or importance : homage… See the full definition
The Watchtower has taught you well how to play word games.
The definition you linked to says...
"a movement of the body made in token of respect or submission : bow" Is bowing "worship"?
"acknowledgment of another's superiority or importance : homage" Can people pay homage to one who is not God?
Seriously mate, I question you comprehension skills when you post things that agree with your opponents....
Keiw
Well-Known Member
The Greek word translates to bow and kiss the feet. And no it is not always in worship( Mr Nolette) Obeisance to a king, honor to a judge. Judges dont get worship neither do kings. plus there are 2 other meanings that does not mean to worship. Only worship to God.
God always was and always will be, he did not have a mortal mother.
I will show you maam, please read Rev 22:8,9; Mat 18:26.
Proskuneo is the original word for worship and it is defined this way:
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Jesus is the God man.
Proskyneo:
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 6:758,948
KJV Translation Count — Total: 60x
The KJV translates Strong's G4352 in the following manner: worship (60x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
- to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
- among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
- in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
- used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
- to the Jewish high priests
- to God
- to Christ
- to heavenly beings
- to demons
- Isn't it funny god decided to not protect His word for centuries and there was no man anywhere at anytime who could know the difference between worship and obeisance until the apostate
CT Russel came on the scene.
- used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
@Ronald Nolette...here was the reply I gave you.....
Those in Bible times knew well the difference between obeisance and worship because it was part of their culture.
They knew that to render worship to anyone other than Jehovah was blasphemy.
Only to God was "Proskyneo" "worship". To any human it was an act of respect and honor. There is no such thing in the Bible as a "God/man. Jesus was 100 % human. Only a mortal human can die,
It didn't take Charles Taze Russell to clarify what the later KJV translators failed to recognize in their quest to push a certain doctrine, towards which they were highly biassed. The Bible writers themselves knew the difference.....it was the KJV translators who were clueless.
The very things you linked to were contrary to your own argument.
Those in Bible times knew well the difference between obeisance and worship because it was part of their culture.
They knew that to render worship to anyone other than Jehovah was blasphemy.
Only to God was "Proskyneo" "worship". To any human it was an act of respect and honor. There is no such thing in the Bible as a "God/man. Jesus was 100 % human. Only a mortal human can die,
It didn't take Charles Taze Russell to clarify what the later KJV translators failed to recognize in their quest to push a certain doctrine, towards which they were highly biassed. The Bible writers themselves knew the difference.....it was the KJV translators who were clueless.
How to you explain the translators not being able to remove God's name Ron, shows me He protected it sir. The KJV was the primary version used by Christians for centuries, you can find truth in it, just a little harder to do than the modern version that God protects.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Wrong. go ask some believing historians instead of the phonies in New York!
Jesus Himself said that however you value and honor the Father- you should do the same to the Son--no exceptions!
John 5:23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
However you honor the Father you MUST honor the Son the same way! If you do not you do not honor the Father either!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Are we really going to have to go back there for about the fifth time????
Explain why not one of the inspired by God New Testament writers chose to put the name Yahweh in the New Testament? It appears nowhere in any of the greek manuscripts---NOWHERE!
I can tell you why and you will reject to your doom:
Because God the Father has given the name Jesus higher importance than the name Yahweh!
And remember Jesus is Yahweh Sabaoth. Every one but the Father will bow and proclaim that Jesus is Yahweh (Hebrew NT) to the glory of God the Father!
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Yes it does....the Tetragrammaton appears in the Greek text in Hebrew characters in the Septuagint.
You can see that this Septuagint fragment from the first century contains the Hebrew tetragrammaton in the Greek text.
The divine name was removed from the author’s own book and replaced with an ambiguous title...."Lord". But why, when it was never commanded by God to do so.....in fact Jesus said he had come to make his Father's name known. (John 17:26)
Some Bibles have the word "LORD" in capitals to denote where the tetragrammaton appeared in the original text. The KJV even does this.
What were the Israelites told at Exodus 3:13-15...?
From the Jewish Tanakh....
| "And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" | יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם: | |
| 14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" | ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם: | |
| 15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation." | טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר: |
How did the Jews interpret their own scripture here...? What is given as the meaning of God's name?
Now here it is from the KJV....
"13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."
Who is "the LORD God" mentioned here? In the Hebrew text the tetragrammaton is clearly seen, so why is God's name obscured in the KJV when it appears at Psalm 83:18?
Is "the LORD God" his name....or is it Yahweh ( יְהֹוָ֞ה) ? Can you give me a reason for the KJV's failure to identify the true God by his name when it does so only 4 times out of 7,000 ? Who decided where to allow it those 4 times and where to replace it over 6 and a half thousand times....I'd like to know.
In Exodus 34:5-5 in the Tanakh it says....
| So he [Moses] hewed two stone tablets like the first ones, and Moses arose early in the morning and ascended Mount Sinai as the Lord had commanded him, and he took two stone tablets in his hand. | דוַיִּפְסֹ֡ל שְׁנֵֽי־לֻחֹ֨ת אֲבָנִ֜ים כָּרִֽאשֹׁנִ֗ים וַיַּשְׁכֵּ֨ם משֶׁ֤ה בַבֹּ֨קֶר֙ וַיַּ֨עַל֙ אֶל־הַ֣ר סִינַ֔י כַּֽאֲשֶׁ֛ר צִוָּ֥ה יְהֹוָ֖ה אֹת֑וֹ וַיִּקַּ֣ח בְּיָד֔וֹ שְׁנֵ֖י לֻחֹ֥ת אֲבָנִֽים: | ||||
5 And the Lord descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and He called out in the name of the Lord."
| הוַיֵּ֤רֶד יְהֹוָה֙ בֶּֽעָנָ֔ן וַיִּתְיַצֵּ֥ב עִמּ֖וֹ שָׁ֑ם וַיִּקְרָ֥א בְשֵׁ֖ם יְהֹוָֽה :ווַיַּֽעֲבֹ֨ר יְהֹוָ֥ה | עַל־פָּנָיו֘ וַיִּקְרָא֒ יְהֹוָ֣ה | יְהֹוָ֔ה אֵ֥ל רַח֖וּם וְחַנּ֑וּן אֶ֥רֶךְ אַפַּ֖יִם וְרַב־חֶ֥סֶד וֶֽאֱמֶֽת: |
Do you see with what disrespect God's name is erased from his word in English? There it is in the Hebrew text as the name God declared should be "mentioned in every generation".....and you defend the ones who replaced it with a mere title.....that is disgraceful disobedience.
What human author would tolerate his name being removed from his own work and replaced with the title “Author”?
What nonsense to quibble over pronunciation when God is the inventor of all language and knows his name in all tongues.
Its not how you say it but that you use it with respect and reverence, like the Bible writers did. There is only one Yahweh. (Deut 6:4)
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