Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

[Wrangler]

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Dude, you said that out loud.
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I was paraphrasing @ScottA.

 

[BarneyFife]

I was paraphrasing @ScottA.

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Kewl. I guess I horned in without getting the context. Sorry.

Always good to see you, W. :)
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[BarneyFife]

I see and reject the mystical BS; only those with spiritual discernment see the truth of things my way. What sublime Circular Reasoning AS IF God is only capable of riddles, the Supreme Being who wrote the ultimate book of explicitness; thou shall not written in stone! 4th century mystical dualists come along and all a sudden, 1 is 3, dead is alive, son mean not begotten and if you don't agree, you aren't spiritually discerning. Yea, right!

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There does seem to be a touch of Gnosticism roaming around.

Just my opinion.
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[Daydreamer]

A christian is someone in whom the Holy Spirit dwells. Some on the internet will tell you many doctrines will mean you fail the test to be a christian. I learnt decades ago, God is not so quick to lay demands on you that some of his children will in order for you to be in a saved state or blessed by him.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Paul said this-1 Cor 10:21--he would not contradict himself, thus you are twisting the other things he said. Nothing off the table of demons is ok. Or what God was saying is that if one does partake off that table, what they do off his table counts 0 for them. Satan misleads the majority that way--From generation to generation, from parent to child, the traditions of men loaded with stuff off the table of demons has them beat.

Well we are done! All you can do is be myopic and then retort with a juvenile "Its not me but you ...." Have the last word, I will not respond back.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No doubt you are familiar with the second of the 10 commandments about graven images. Saturn is a god, those christmas traditions were dedicated to him, and remain the same including the time period selected. While we do not know the day of Jesus' birth, we do know the approximate time, and it was not during the winter solstice. How do you think God feels about someone worshipping a pagan god with rituals, and then changing their minds and doing it for Him? Here is my notes on birthdays sir:

But if they are not worshipping Saturn it matters not! YOur false religion has pictures of Jesus in their books. That is just a modern day form of idols!

God hates anyone worshipping false gods. but if someone is worshipping Saturn with a Christmas tree on 12/25 they are guilty of idolatry!

I have read the watchtower loathing of birthdays. It belongs in the trash.

so according to teh twisted logic of the watchtower, if evil people do evil things with something- it is wrong! Why are you driving a car?

Why do you fly in planes?

Just because evil is done a birthday does not make birthdays evil- for the very Scriptures I quoted you. People are free to celebrate or not celebrate birthdays. As Paul write whatever you do, do to the glory of God!

YOu are so hung up on teh superficial that you forget that God doesn't look on teh outside but on the inside! That you learned from men, not God!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The Bible point blank stated Jehovah at Isa 44:6:
Isa 44:6 Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. You even said that yourself. I assumed you used that verse because it also had a shared title between Jehovah and Jesus. It was referring to God as it said in the verse, God only, no one else Ron.

Jesus is not called Yahweh in James either.

Jesus was not called Jesus until he came to earth, although the Bible still refers to him as Jesus in the heavens, he went back to being called by his own name most likely. I gave you evidence of him being Michael, you disagree, simple as that. I believe he is the highest angel, second only to Jehovah sir.

Now you are simply straining at gnats to swallow camels!

Jesus is Yahweh of Hosts both in Isaiah and James. UNless there are two redeemers! C'mon man pharisaic shallowness is unbecoming on you.

 

[Wrangler]

Now you are simply straining at gnats to swallow camels!

Jesus is Yahweh of Hosts both in Isaiah and James. UNless there are two redeemers!

Oy vey! The EXACT opposite is true. There is no Scripture verse that identifies the man Jesus as YHWH.

There are, however, verses that identify Jesus as the servant of YHWH. And you probably aware trinitarianism violates the 1C, if anything ever did.

For it is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob—the God of all our ancestors—who has brought glory to his servant Jesus by doing this. This is the same Jesus whom you handed over and rejected before Pilate, despite Pilate’s decision to release him. Acts 3:13

When God raised up his servant, Jesus, he sent him first to you people of Israel, to bless you by turning each of you back from your sinful ways.” Acts 3:26

Stretch out your hand with healing power; may miraculous signs and wonders be done through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” Acts 4:30

24 But God treats us much better than we deserve, and because of Christ Jesus, he freely accepts us and sets us free from our sins. 25-26 God sent Christ to be our sacrifice. Christ offered his life's blood, so by faith in him we could come to God ...
Romans 3:24-26 CEV

 

[Webers_Home]

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Continued From No.543

According to John 8:29, 2Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, and 1Pet 2:22; Jesus Christ
committed no sins of his own. The Watchtower Society is of the opinion that
Christ didn't sin because he "chose" not to sin. In other words: in their
estimation Christ could've failed, he could've sinned.

That's what they say; but it's not what the Bible says. The fact of the matter
is; Christ's divine genetics made it impossible for him to sin.

• 1John 3:9 . . Everyone who has been born from God does not carry on sin,
because His [reproductive] seed remains in such one, and he cannot practice
sin, because he has been born from God.

That translation makes it look as though one born of God's reproductive
seed sins now and then but not all the time; viz: doesn't make a habit of sin.
However; the Greek side of the Society's Kingdom Interlinear © 1969 says
this:

"He is not able to be sinning because out of God he has been generated."

Now that is a really huge advantage over rank and file pew warmers who are
expected to exert their will power to keep from sinning.
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[Wrangler]

In other words: in their
estimation Christ could've failed, he could've sinned.

Otherwise, he’d only be a MINO.

 

[Wrangler]

That's what they say; but it's not what the Bible says.

I love it how trinitarians announce what is in the Bible, only for the actual verses cited to have nothing in common with what they claim.

The fact of the matter is; Christ's divine genetics made it impossible for him to sin.

The fact of the matter? The days repeatedly that Jesus is a man. Some claim he is fully man. What kind of genetics is that man, fully man, that makes sinning an impossibility?

You just took Christ’s greatest accomplishment and made it nothing!

 

[ScottA]

And of course He is not alone. Speculative thinking would reveal that God was complete, needing nothing. We believe it was not that He was concerned with being alone, rather He created out of love, wanting other conscious beings to enjoy life. Creation of course had to start somewhere, and we believe Jn 1:1's beginning was referring to the start of creation sir.

The image that God created man in was of a man and a woman, that is, a man, and a women taken out of the man, whom were to become one again. That too was and is the image of the what and why of God's creation, wherein, as it is written: “Enlarge the place of your tent, And let them stretch out the curtains of your dwellings; Do not spare; Lengthen your cords, And strengthen your stakes." Isaiah 54:2

 

[Dropship]

..So are Jehovah's witnesses Christians?

If they're christians I'm the Last of the Mohicans..:)
They're just a vanity cult, they like to think God has revealed "hidden secrets" to them alone, and not to the rest of us poor dumb shmucks..:)

 

[tigger 2]

If they're christians I'm the Last of the Mohicans..:)
They're just a vanity cult, they like to think God has revealed "hidden secrets" to them alone, and not to the rest of us poor dumb shmucks..:)

View attachment 26346

Please tell us 3 of the top "hidden secrets" revealed to them alone.

 

[Dropship]

Please tell us 3 of the top "hidden secrets" revealed to them alone.

Well they think christmas, easter and birthdays have "pagan roots"..:)

 

[tigger 2]

Well they think christmas, easter and birthdays have "pagan roots"..:)

So, no one else has ever made the same observation? "Hidden secrets revealed to them alone"?

CHRISTMAS

“DECEMBER 25 - Neither scripture nor secular history records the date of Jesus’ birth; even the season of the year is not stipulated. Some evidence points to spring, but it is not conclusive. The only thing reasonably certain about the coming of the Christ Child is that his birth did not take place in winter. .... In A. D. 350 Pope Julius I formally designated December 25 as Christmas. He chose that date because it coincided with important pagan festivals. These, in turn, were linked with the winter solstice [the shortest day of the year].” - How it Started, p. 54.

“It was noted later that this date [Dec. 25] would fall within the rainy season in Palestine, so that the shepherds would hardly have been in the fields as they were when Jesus was born.” - p. 1425, The World Book Encyclopedia, 1958.

Isaac Asimov in an article for Saturday Review tells us that the ancient pagan Romans celebrated

“a week-long Saturnalia [honoring the Roman god Saturn] from Dec. 17 to 24. It was a time of unrelieved merriment and joy.... gifts were given all around.” Asimov continues, “the worship of Mithra, a sun-god of Persia, was becoming popular, especially among the soldiers. The Mithraists celebrated the birth of Mithra at the winter solstice, a natural time, and fixed on the day December 25 so that the popular Roman Saturnalia could build up to the Mithraist ‘Day of the Sun’ as a climax.

“At that time, Christianity was locked in a great duel with the Mithraists for the hearts and minds of the people of the Roman Empire. .... Sometime after 300, Christianity managed the final coup of absorbing the Saturnalia, and with it scored its final victory over Mithraism. December 25 was established as the day of the birth of Jesus and the great festival was made Christian. There is absolutely no Biblical authority for Dec. 25 as having been the day of the Nativity.” (Cf. “Sol Invictus”, p. 725, An Encyclopedia of Religion, 1945 ed.)

“December 25 was already a major festival in the pagan Roman world, the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, or ‘Birthday of the Unconquered Sun,’ a feast honoring the renewal of the sun at the winter solstice. Pagan celebrations on December 25 had included feasting, dancing, lighting bonfires, decorating homes with greens, and giving gifts. So when this became a Christian [?] festival, the customs continued, but with a Christian [?] meaning imparted to them. Throughout the [Catholic] Middle Ages, Christmas was a richly varied religious holiday. However, during the Commonwealth, the English Puritans, repelled by both the pagan practices and the religious ceremonies, forbade any religious or secular celebration of Christmas. The English celebration returned with the return of the Stuarts [“near-Catholic” Church of England monarchs], but Christmas observances were still outlawed in Puritan New England for many years; and not until the 19th century did Christmas become a legal holiday in America.” - p. 414, Vol. 4, Encyclopedia International, Grolier, Inc., 1966.

This is not a "secret" revealed only to JWs!!

 

[tigger 2]

So, no one else has ever made the same observation? "Hidden secrets revealed to them alone"?

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GIFT-GIVING, FEASTING, MERRY-MAKING - The Saturnalia, a pagan Roman festival honoring the Roman god Saturn, has supplied many of the elements found in Christmas.

“Most of the Christmas customs now prevailing in Europe [and America] ... are not genuine Christian customs, but heathen customs which have been absorbed or tolerated by the Church... The Saturnalia in Rome provided the model for most of the merry customs of the Christmas time.... Christmas inherited the general merriment in a more restrained form (excessive only in eating and drinking) [but see 1 Pet. 4:3, 4]: games, giving of gifts (especially to children), abundance of sweet meats and, as more ceremonious elements, burning of candles...” - Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, Hastings, Vol. III, pp. 608, 609.

“Saturnalia presents included wax dolls, given to children. A charming custom, no doubt, by times of record, but with a macabre past: even contemporaries thought this probably a vestige of human sacrifice, of children, to aid sowing.” - History Today, as quoted in 22 Dec. 1992 Awake!.

“The early Church in Rome had a particularly hard battle against two other great pagan festivals, the week-long Saturnalia, which began Dec. 17, and the Kalends, which greeted the New Year. The first festival was a time of licensed misrule, often presided over by a lord of merriment, not so much Santa as fat Saturn himself, the orgiast of eating, drinking and other kinds of naughtiness. It was during Kalends, when the year changed, however, that gifts were ritually exchanged, often tied to the boughs of greenery that decorated houses during the festivities.

“The attitude of the early church toward all this indecent jollity was predictably frosty. Its fathers, notably the fulminating St. John Chrysostom, urged no compromise with heathen abominations.” - Simon Schama, professor of history at Harvard University, in a feature article of the 24 Dec. 1991 issue of The New York Times.


“CHRISTMAS TREES - Many countries claim the distinction of having launched the custom of erecting Christmas trees, but it may have begun independently in several parts of Europe. Ceremonial worship of trees in ancient pagan rites almost certainly led to the decoration of trees at the time of the winter solstice. German emigrants [coming to the U.S.] brought with them the custom of setting up trees in their houses at Christmas.” - How It Started, pp. 52, 53.

“It is believed that the custom is a survival of the tree worship of ancient German tribes.” -- “Tree worship was common in Scandinavian countries.... When the pagans of Northern Europe became Christians [?], they made their sacred evergreen trees part of the Christian festival, and decorated the trees with gilded nuts, candles (a carry-over from sun worship), and apples to stand for the stars, moon, and sun.” - pp. 1429, 1425, The World Book Encyclopedia, 1958 ed.

“I will stretch out my hand against [those worshiping me falsely in] Judah and against all who live in Jerusalem. I will cut off from this place every remnant of Baal, the names of the pagan and the idolatrous priests - those who bow down on the roofs to worship the starry host, those who bow down and swear by the LORD [Jehovah] and who also swear by Molech, those who turn back from following [Jehovah] and neither seek [Jehovah] nor inquire of him.” - Zephaniah 1:4-6, NIVSB. The footnote for verse 1:5 reads: “swear by the LORD ... by Molech. Syncretism (worship of one's own god along with other gods).”

So again we see God’s absolute hatred of “every remnant” of pagan worship mixed in with his true worship. Obviously this includes remnants of sacred tree worship and pagan worship of “the starry host” (stars, moon and sun)! But what were the decorations on the sacred evergreen tree intended to represent? “decorated the trees with gilded nuts, candles [electric lights today] (a carry-over from sun worship), and apples to stand for the stars, moon, and sun.”

“From the earliest times the worship of trees has played an important part in the religious life of European peoples.... tree-worship is well attested for all the great European families of the Aryan stock. Amongst the Celts the oak-worship of the Druids is familiar to everyone. Sacred groves were common among the ancient Germans, and tree-worship is hardly extinct amongst their descendants at the present day. How serious that worship was in former times may be gathered from the ferocious penalty appointed by the old German laws for such as dared to peel the bark of a standing tree. [In times of famine starving peoples subsisted on the inner bark of certain trees.] The culprit’s navel was to be cut out and nailed to the part of the tree which he had peeled, and he was to be driven round and round the tree till all his guts were wound about its trunk. The intention of the punishment clearly was to replace the dead bark by a living substitute taken from the culprit.... Proofs of the prevalence of tree-worship in ancient Greece and Italy [including Rome itself] are abundant.” - pp. 106, 107, 108, The New Golden Bough, Sir James Frazer, Revised and edited by Dr. Theodor H. Gaster, Mentor Book, 1964 printing.

Is it any wonder that any trace of pagan worship is abhorrent to God?

“MISTLETOE - Why mistletoe [for Christmas decoration] instead of some other plant? Because this parasite which draws its nurture from oaks and other trees was regarded by the Druids of ancient Britain as endowed with supernatural power. .... Christians tried for centuries to discourage any use of mistletoe at any season of the year. The deeply ingrained practices rooted in [pagan] festivals around the time of the modern Christmas proved too stubborn to be eliminated, however.” - How It Started, pp. 53, 54.

“Mistletoe is the famous Golden Bough, honored in Norse legend and worshiped by the Druids.” - p. 337, Celebrations - The Complete Book of American Holidays, Robert J. Myers, Doubleday & Co., 1972.


HOLLY -

“The Druids of prehistoric Britain revered the plant we know as holly. .... It was all but inevitable that the use of the semi - sacred plant should become linked with the Christian [?] celebration that supplanted the older pagan one. Many scholars even think that ‘holly’ is an adaptation of an early form of the word holy.” - How It Started, p. 56.


YULE -

“In most of Europe [Christmas] is known as ‘Christ's Birthday.’ Scandinavian countries still use the pagan name ‘Yule Day.’ .... The Druids blessed [the Yule log] with great ceremony at the winter feast. (See Druid.)” - pp. 1425, 1426, The World Book Encyclopedia, 1958 ed.

“Yule (yool) n. Christmas. ¦< OE geol, originally a twelve-day heathen feast” - The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 1973, Dell.

“The burning of a huge log in the fireplace on Christmas day is a tradition followed by many European Christians that was borrowed from the Norsemen who burned a huge oak log called the Juul (pronounced ‘Yool’ or ‘Yule’) in honor of Thor, the God of thunder. After Christianity became the accepted faith of many Norsemen, they retained this custom as a part of their Christmas celebration. Later, the Scandinavians adopted the practice and even referred to the season as the ‘Yule season’ or ‘Yuletide’.” England and other European countries later adopted the tradition. - The Christian Book of Why, Dr. John C. McCollister (pastor and university professor, graduate of Trinity Lutheran Seminary), p. 215, Jonathan David Publishers, Inc., 1983.

“What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? .... ‘Therefore come out from them and be separate,’ says the Lord. ‘Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you ...' says the Lord Almighty.” - 2 Cor. 6:16, 17, NIVSB. [NIVSB f.n.: “agreement...between the temple of God and idols. There can be no reversion to or compromise with the idolatry they have forsaken for the gospel (cf. 1 Th. 1:9).”]

These are not "secrets" revealed to JWs alone!!!

 

[Webers_Home]

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Continued From No.569

Please tell us 3 of the top "hidden secrets" revealed to them alone.

A handy reference for examining a number of Watchtower Society beliefs
and practices is their own little brown book titled "Reasoning From The
Scriptures."

It's available online from amazon dot com. Be sure to get the Watchtower
Society's publication instead of another book by the same name published
by a different agency.

Be Advised: If you order it directly from the Watchtower Society, you run
the risk of them contacting you for questioning.
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[tigger 2]

EASTER

What do the name "Easter," colored eggs, hot-cross buns, and bunnies have to do with honoring Jesus and Jehovah?
The very name of this celebration in English ("Easter") is the name of a pagan goddess! Many of the customs originally used in worshiping this ancient European goddess are the same ones used today in celebrating Easter!

"East'er ..., n. [AS. eastre, pl. eastron, from name of old Teutonic goddess of spring, AS. Eastre.]" - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, 1953.

"... Eastre was the goddess of spring in the religion of the ancient Angles and Saxons. Every April a festival was celebrated in her honor. .... The festival [eventually] was celebrated in honor of the resurrection of Christ but was still known as Easter after the old goddess." p. 215, v. 5, Britannica Junior, 1957.

"(the word Easter is derived from the [Anglo-Saxon] name of Eastre, the Spring-goddess….)" – p. 240, An Encyclopedia of Religion, Virgilius Ferm, The Philosophical Library, 1945.

Easter was
"originally the spring festival in honor of the Teutonic goddess of light and spring known in Anglo-Saxon as Eastre. As early as the 8th century the name was transferred by the Anglo-Saxons to the Christian Festival designed to celebrate the resurrection of Christ." - The Westminster Dictionary of the Bible.

"Rooted in ancient veneration, the date of Easter was long regarded as symbolizing the rebirth of living things that had passed through the death of winter. Eostre, the Anglo-Saxon goddess who presided over the vernal equinox, eventually gave her name to the Christian [?] festival." - How It Started, Garrison, copyright 1972 by Abingdon Press, pp. 49-50.

"Amongst the Anglo-Saxons the month of April was dedicated to Eostre or Ostara, Goddess of Spring; and her great feast has given its name to our Easter. Here again the Church was quite frank about it, and Bede states that the feast in England was simply `the old [pagan] festival observed with the gladness of a new solemnity.'" - Paganism in our Christianity, Weigall, p. 261, Gordon Press, 1974 (Reprint of the edition published by Putnam, New York.)

So how did the name of a pagan European goddess come to be in the KJV translation of Acts 12:4 ?

"EASTER - originally a Saxon word (Eostre), denoting a goddess of the Saxons, in honour of whom sacrifices were offered about the time of the Passover. Hence the name came to be given to the festival of the Resurrection of Christ, which occurred at the time of the Passover. In the early English versions this word [Easter] was frequently used as the translation of the Greek pascha (the Passover). When the Authorized Version [KJV] (1611) was formed, the word `passover' was used in all passages in which this word pascha occurred, except in Acts 12:4. In the Revised Version the proper word, "passover," is always used." – Easton's Bible Dictionary, Thomas Nelson Publ.

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"Do not invoke the names of other gods; do not let them be heard [in a respectful, or even tolerating, manner] on your lips." Exodus 23:13, NIVSB.
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"Like the Greeks, the [pagan] Romans ate bread marked with a cross ... at public sacrifices, such bread being usually purchased at the doors of the temple and then taken in with them - a custom alluded to by St. Paul in 1 Cor. x. 28. The cross-bread was eaten by pagan Saxons in honour of Easter, their goddess of light.[3]

"Long before the Christian festival of Easter was established, persons of many cultures exchanged eggs at the time of the year when nature wakes up from sleep. Wealthy persons used to cover their gift eggs with gilt or even gold leaf; ordinary persons usually colored them red. Today's [Easter] egg hunt, involving a dozen or hundreds or thousands of decorated or candy eggs, is so gay that it conceals the reverence with which many ancients [pagans] regarded this symbol of `life and death.'" - How It Started, p. 51.

"… the symbol of the egg generated not from Christian observances, but from pagan rituals. From earliest times, the egg has been a symbol of fertility and immortality. During the rites of spring, the pagan nations included it as a symbol of celebrating for the new life promised during the season of planting. The Church only took this ancient sign and applied it as a visual lesson to the resurrection of Christ." – p. 232, The Christian Book of Why, J. C. McCollister (Lutheran pastor and university professor), Jonathan David Publishers, 1983.

"Like the egg, the rabbit has been a symbol of fertility, the observance of which was a part of the Anglo-Saxon mythology and the pagan's celebration of spring, In a blend of Christian and pagan traditions, the rabbit was adopted as part of the festival of Jesus' resurrection celebrated during the spring each year." – pp. 233-234, McCollister.

"A great many pagan customs, celebrating the return of spring, gravitated to Easter. The egg is the emblem of the germinating life of early spring.... The rabbit is a pagan symbol and has always been an emblem of fertility." - The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913, Vol. V, p. 227.

So when children hunt for Easter eggs (left by the `Easter Bunny'),
"This is not mere child's play, but the vestige of a [pagan] fertility rite." - Funk and Wagnalls Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology and Legend, Vol. 1, p. 335.

"There is no indication of the observance of the Easter festival in the New Testament, or in the writings of the apostolic Fathers. The sanctity of special times was an idea absent from the minds of the first Christians. . . . The ecclesiastical historian Socrates (Hist. Eccl. v. 22) states, with perfect truth, that neither the Lord nor his apostles enjoined the keeping of this or any other festival . . . and he attributes the observance of Easter by the church to the perpetuation of an old usage, `just as many other customs have been established.'"

The `old usage' was the practice by pagans of having a festival in honor of their goddess of spring.

These are not "secrets" revealed to JWs alone!!!

 

[Webers_Home]

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Continued From No.578

The days repeatedly that Jesus is a man. Some claim he is fully man. What kind of
genetics is that man, fully man, that makes sinning an impossibility?

Some of Christianity's supernatural elements are not only difficult to accept,
but even more difficult to comprehend.

For example: according to 1Cor 15:45-47, Christ exists as a spirit being and a
material being simultaneously.

* Folks coming to Christianity expecting to find a religion that makes sense
are likely to be disappointed.
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