Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

[ScottA]

Despite the Bible saying over and over and over again that there is only one God, YWHW, the Oneness doctrine persists to subordinate the actual Word of YHWH.

Perhaps you could elaborate.

It sounds like you are suggesting that God did not lower Himself in part to become Christ "the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men" (Philippians 2:7). That in the end God is not "all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28) as the Father and the Son were before the world was (John 17:5).

 

[Wrangler]

Perhaps you could elaborate.

It sounds like you are suggesting that God did not lower Himself in part to become Christ "the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men" (Philippians 2:7). That in the end God is not "all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28) as the Father and the Son were before the world was (John 17:5).

Wow! All in all means pantheonism. Let's take a closer look at Christianities end game, where Christ is still distinguisable from God.

1 Corinthians 15:23-28 NLT
But there is an order to this resurrection: Christ was raised as the first of the harvest; then all who belong to Christ will be raised when he comes back.

24 After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power. 25 For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. 26 And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.”[a] (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.) 28 Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.​

God is excluded from all things under Christ's authority for one simple reason. Jesus is not God - even at the end. If this were not so, why does Scripture make this distinction?

The Son will put himself under God's authority for one simple reason. Jesus is not God - even at the end. If this were not so, why does Scripture make this distinction?

 

[ScottA]

Wow! All in all means pantheonism. Let's take a closer look at Christianities end game, where Christ is still distinguisable from God.

1 Corinthians 15:23-28 NLT
But there is an order to this resurrection: Christ was raised as the first of the harvest; then all who belong to Christ will be raised when he comes back.

24 After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power. 25 For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. 26 And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.”[a] (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.) 28 Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.​

God is excluded from all things under Christ's authority for one simple reason. Jesus is not God - even at the end. If this were not so, why does Scripture make this distinction?

The Son will put himself under God's authority for one simple reason. Jesus is not God - even at the end. If this were not so, why does Scripture make this distinction?

Sorry @Robert Gwin, but I should think this is applicable.

Back to you @Wrangler,

That is a strange translation that would appear to lean in the direction that you are suggesting. But no matter. It still explains the truth--not as you have suggested, but as it is written and actually is. Which is to say, that there is indeed a purposeful appearance of Jesus not being God, which does not define Him as not being God, but rather that He is...as only God could go (as the scriptures say) from being of the same glory as the Father, to be exposed to all manner--every manner of sin and unrighteousness, and not incinerate the world--which is coming, but is held off. The point is, that miracle of God is a miracle that only He could accomplish in being both God and man, which no mere man alone could accomplish or do.

Thus, I would submit that just as Yellow is not White and neither is Red, that a Yellow house with White trim built upon a Redbrick foundation, each being a rightful component....is nonetheless One house.

 

[Wrangler]

rather that He is...as only God could go (as the scriptures say) from being of the same glory as the Father

There is your Oneness doctrine again! As children of God, we all share in the inheritance of God. It does not make us God, YHWH, who we relate to as the Father.

Jesus is not the father and was never identified as YHWH, as God. This is primarily because Jesus is not God.

 

[ScottA]

There is your Oneness doctrine again! As children of God, we all share in the inheritance of God. It does not make us God, YHWH, who we relate to as the Father.

Jesus is not the father and was never identified as YHWH, as God. This is primarily because Jesus is not God.

You are being selective and not accounting for all that is written, which I perceive is due to your assessment being made with regard to "times"...meaning, by your own understanding. That is, that being in the times of this world yourself, and Jesus also living in the times of this world, but the God spoken of and defined in the scriptures in the most heavenly way does not appear in the times of this world...you simply can't imagine it so, or will not allow yourself to imagine it without the scriptures saying "Here is the God of your fathers, and He is that same Jesus also written of."

I get that--and I don't hold it against you.

Nonetheless, much of the scriptures only point to what is ultimately true...and for that, you may have to wait. And that's fine.

 

[Wrangler]

You are being selective and not accounting for all that is written

Ad Hominem. You just lost the argument. Unfounded accusation. This is not about me.

Nonetheless, much of the scriptures only point to what is ultimately true

So says mystics. On the topic at hand, trinitarians put all their eggs in this vague 'pointing' while downplaying explicit Scripture. Like an anti-gun abortionist, upset about RvW being overturned while seeing no Constitutional support for the right to self defense.

 

[ScottA]

Ad Hominem. You just lost the argument. Unfounded accusation. This is not about me.



So says mystics. On the topic at hand, trinitarians put all their eggs in this vague 'pointing' while downplaying explicit Scripture. Like an anti-gun abortionist, upset about RvW being overturned while seeing no Constitutional support for the right to self defense.

Not true.

Matthew 15:18
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man.
​

And it shows in that last comment.

But I digress. Your rant and pet peeve has nearly buried the issue of all that the scriptures "only point to"...as if to say (with criticism) that "all truth" was not actually promised--that Jesus did not actually have "more to say", or that we should not "hear what the Spirit says."

You make a rather weak argument.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
• Col 1:15 . . He is the firstborn of all creation

God has other firstborn besides Christ

The people of Israel (Ex 4:22)

David (Ps 89:20-27)


The Greek word translated "firstborn" above is prototokos, which never
means created first; no, it always means born first. The correct Greek word
for created first is protoktistos.

The average JW probably doesn't know the difference between prototokos
and protoktistos; and no doubt would care little about it anyway. To some;
born first and created first are one and the same.

The thing to note is that "firstborn" doesn't always refer to birth order. The
term also refers to superiority, and as such is transferrable, viz: it's possible
to circumvent the eldest son and give his advantages to a younger, e.g.
Esau to Jacob (Gen 25:23) Manasseh to Ephraim (Gen 48:13-14) and
Reuben to Joseph (Gen 49:3-4, 1Chr 5:1).

In the beginning, Adam was the ranking man over all Earth (Gen 1:26-28)
but he has since been superseded by one of his descendants. (Dan 7:13-14,
John 3:35, 1Cor 15:27, Phil 2:8-11, Heb 1:2)
_

 

[Wrangler]

You make a rather weak argument.

I make the strongest possible argument; there is no explicit Scripture teaching the trinity but there is explicit Scripture teaching that only the Father is God. If my argument is weak, what does that make your argument?

... Drops Mic ...

;)

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Continued From No.515

what is born of God is indeed God

I would think that anyone familiar with the birds and the bees would agree
that were God to reproduce, His progeny would be more of Himself because
that how reproduction works, i.e. doves don't produce termites, hyenas
don't produce meerkats, and humans don't produce fruit bats. No; they all
produce more of their own rather than some other species.

So; is Jesus God's offspring or not? Well, Luke 1:35 says he is, and so
does Heb 1:1-4

It looks to me that the Watchtower Society has made a very big mistake
with an important portion of Jesus' origin.
_

 

[ScottA]

I make the strongest possible argument; there is no explicit Scripture teaching the trinity but there is explicit Scripture teaching that only the Father is God. If my argument is weak, what does that make your argument?

... Drops Mic ...

;)

Mog...is that you? (she does the Mic thing)

So, we're back to the Trinity pet peeve then?

Wrong topic-- I was addressing the JW idea that Jesus is not God. Which I did...and then you got off track with the Oneness thing--which was a quote, not a doctrinal claim of mine.

 

[ScottA]

.


I would think that anyone familiar with the birds and the bees would agree
that were God to reproduce, His progeny would be more of Himself because
that how reproduction works, i.e. doves don't produce termites, hyenas
don't produce meerkats, and humans don't produce fruit bats. No; they all
produce more of their own rather than some other species.

So; is Jesus God's offspring or not? Well, Luke 1:35 says he is, and so
does Heb 1:1-4

It looks to me that the Watchtower Society has made a very big mistake
with an important portion of Jesus' origin.
_

I would agree. I did tell Robert however, that there should be no fault in claiming that Jesus fully being a man (for a time) was also not God (for a time). That is the way it is written, and is also necessary for Him to be qualified to be the proper sacrifice. Which is why He mostly referred to Himself as the Son of Man, and only carefully eluded to or revealed that He was the Son of God, or God.

 

[Keiw]

And as I said, followers of Jesus who celebrate Christmas with a priority oin the commercialism of it all, are wrong! NOthing wrong with presents and celebration, if they are in their proper order.

I never taught my kids about Santa. We always had a birthday cake for Jesus and had a "Happy Birthday Jesus " sign. I always let my kids decorate the tree, and I tolsd them stories how each kind of decoration, as well as the tree siginified something believers should be or do!

God is not going to judge you ro I for what teh world does with something, but what we do with something!

Once again :

Romans 14
King James Version

14 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

1 Corinthians 8
King James Version

8 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

1 Corinthians 10:25-27
King James Version

25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.


If your conscinece forbids you to have a christmas celebration, don't do it! But if a follower of Jesus gives God thanks and celebrates it as remembering teat the Father sent the Son to become a man and redeem us- they are free to do that as well as you are free to not do it.

God has already judged--By the traditions of men you make the word of God invalid Mark 7:13)--Christmas= not biblical, thus worldly. Jesus cares little about lip service. He wants to obeyed. The bible says-Obeying is proof of ones love. Catholicism created christmas and added things off the table of demons to it, and easter as well. Neither is biblical.

 

[tigger 2]

Well I used Blue letter and bible Hub Hebrew OT's. They do not appear and both use the most widely accepted Masoretic text. If you have another that shows the 3rd person personal pronoun, please post it.

But as I said, even if the pronoun did appear, it doesn't alter the fact that because "and" does appear, it makes it a compound sentence with 2 people in focuus.

But the word in Hebrew for "and His Redeemer"
וְגֹאֲל֖וֹ
wə-ḡō-’ă-lōw

and that has no 3rd person personal pronoun. It is added in English for proper grammar translation.



Capitalization is arbitrary.

But you are wrong about personal pronouns. They go back to the nearest antecedant that matches are case, number, and gender. BUT because the pronoun modofes and precedes a proper noun, and because there is a proper noun succeeding the pronoun, it refers to the person which appears afterwards. So it refers to a second Yahweh, called Yahweh of Hosts! That is Hebrew grammar as well as English grammar.

....................................................
I wish you would do some actual research. The pronouns when standing alone are as I showed you. When they are part of a compound word, it's the last letter (to the far left) of the word which gives the intended pronoun, Pronomial Suffixes for Singular Nouns (hebrew4christians.com).

So your answer to all those trinitarian scholars who did not capitalize the English word "his" is simply "Capitalization is arbitrary." Of course it is! You cannot be seriously ignoring the point that so many trinitarian scholars disagree with you by means of their not capitalizing the word in translation.

And if you did put some effort into your "study" you would find that the antecedent is not always the last noun in agreement.
Watch Your Antecedents! (faithweb.com)

How about doing some real research into my study of John 1:1c

 

[JohnPaul]

....................................................
I wish you would do some actual research. The pronouns when standing alone are as I showed you. When they are part of a compound word, it's the last letter (to the far left) of the word which gives the intended pronoun, Pronomial Suffixes for Singular Nouns (hebrew4christians.com).

So your answer to all those trinitarian scholars who did not capitalize the English word "his" is simply "Capitalization is arbitrary." Of course it is! You cannot be seriously ignoring the point that so many trinitarian scholars disagree with you by means of their not capitalizing the word in translation.

And if you did put some effort into your "study" you would find that the antecedent is not always the last noun in agreement.
Watch Your Antecedents! (faithweb.com)

How about doing some real research into my study of John 1:1c

Don't give these people the time of day brother, they have their minds made up and nothing you or I say will change their stereotypical views.

 

[Robert Gwin]

So when Jesus offered bread and wine- which was a pagan tradition long ago- He was wrong?

Early christians never flew in planes or drove cars, so those are wrong as well according to your logic. But show me where one is forbidden to celebrate teh birth of jesus on a certain day! Show me where one cannot use symbols to celebrate.

No doubt you are familiar with the second of the 10 commandments about graven images. Saturn is a god, those christmas traditions were dedicated to him, and remain the same including the time period selected. While we do not know the day of Jesus' birth, we do know the approximate time, and it was not during the winter solstice. How do you think God feels about someone worshipping a pagan god with rituals, and then changing their minds and doing it for Him? Here is my notes on birthdays sir:
Birthday celebrations

Many religious persons in society today feel that there is nothing wrong with celebrating birthdays. If however, a person wants to serve the true God and be one of His people, we need to make sure that doing so would be pleasing to Him, and by doing so we would bring glory to His name.
Let us go back in history to before God had made a covenant with His nation Israel. When Joseph was in Egypt and was in prison, the first recorded birthday celebration was found in the Bible, at Gen.40:20-23:
20 Now on the third day it turned out to be Phar'aoh’s birthday, and he proceeded to make a feast for all his servants and to lift up the head of the chief of the cupbearers and the head of the chief of the bakers in the midst of his servants. 21 Accordingly he returned the chief of the cupbearers to his post of cupbearer, and he continued to give the cup into Phar'aoh’s hand. 22 But the chief of the bakers he hung up, just as Joseph had given them the interpretation. 23 However, the chief of the cupbearers did not remember Joseph and went on forgetting him.
In this account there is no mention of any of God=s people attending this celebration, and the celebration was of a pagan Egyptian Pharaoh (king), who notably in history considered himself as being God (See page 4 to see how this compares with the satanic bible). Notice too, a death resulted from this celebration.
The next (and last) recorded birthday celebration occurs when Christ was on earth and was also by another pagan king Herod Antipas (who was also instrumental in the death of our king Jesus) and is found at Mat. 14:6-10:
6 But when Herod‘s birthday was being celebrated the daughter of HeAro'dias danced at it and pleased Herod so much 7 that he promised with an oath to give her whatever she asked. 8 Then she, under her mother=s coaching, said: “Give me here upon a platter the head of John the Baptist.” 9 Grieved though he was, the king out of regard for his oaths and for those reclining with him commanded it to be given; 10 and he sent and had John beheaded in the prison.
Again we have another pagan king celebrating his birthday with no record of any of Christ’s followers in attendance, or none of the Jews for that matter, and since all things written in the Bible are for our instruction:
Romans 15:4
4 For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.
we need to ask ourselves; does the Bible put birthday celebrations in a favorable light? It does not appear to. Let’s look at some more information:
According to the satanic bible: the #1 holiday is your birthday, even above Halloween’ it states: The highest of all holidays in the satanic religion is the date of one’s own birth. This is in direct contradiction to the holy of holy days of other religions, which deify a particular god who has been created in an anthropomorphic form of their own image, thereby showing that the ego is not really buried.


Page 2
The Satanist feels: “why not really be honest and if you are going to create a god in your image, why not create that god as yourself.” Every man is a god if he chooses to recognize himself as one. So, the Satanist celebrated his own birthday as the most important holiday of the year. (See page 4). With the above information, combined with the satanic bible, it would appear that God would not approve of it. You may say it is a small thing, but: 1 Corinthians 10:21
21 YOU cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; YOU cannot be partaking of the table of Jehovah and the table of demons.

Well since a Christian is a follower of Christ, whom imitates his example
( 1 Peter 2:21 In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely.), what did the followers of Christ do? They did leave us examples to follow: Philippians 3:17
17 Unitedly become imitators of me, brothers, and keep YOUR eye on those who are walking in a way that accords with the example YOU have in us.
We learned that the Bible did not record any of God’s people attending either of the two recorded birthday celebrations, how about other sources? “The later Hebrews looked on the celebration of birthdays as a part of idolatrous worship, a view which would be abundantly confirmed by what they saw of the common observances associated with these days.“: The Imperial Bible-Dictionary (London, 1874), edited by Patrick Fairbairn, Vol. I, p. 225.
“The various customs with which people today celebrate their birthdays have a long history. Their origins lie in the realm of magic and religion. The customs of offering congratulations, presenting gifts and celebrating; complete with lighted candles; in ancient times were meant to protect the birthday celebrant from the demons and to ensure his security for the coming year. . . . Down to the fourth century Christianity rejected the birthday celebration as a pagan custom.“: Schwäbische Zeitung (magazine supplement Zeit und Welt), April 3/4, 1981, p. 4.
“The Greeks believed that everyone had a protective spirit or daemon who attended his birth and watched over him in life. This spirit had a mystic relation with the god on whose birthday the individual was born. The Romans also subscribed to this idea. . . . This notion was carried down in human belief and is reflected in the guardian angel, the fairy godmother and the patron saint. . . . The custom of lighted candles on the cakes started with the Greeks. . . . Honey cakes round as the moon and lit with tapers were placed on the temple altars of [Artemis]. . . . Birthday candles, in folk belief, are endowed with special magic for granting wishes. . . . Lighted tapers and sacrificial fires have had a special mystic significance ever since man first set up altars to his gods. The birthday candles are thus an honor and tribute to the birthday child and bring good fortune. . . . Birthday greetings and wishes for happiness are an intrinsic part of this holiday. . . . Originally the idea was rooted in magic. . . . Birthday greetings have power for good or ill because one is closer to the spirit world on this day.“: The Lore of Birthdays (New York, 1952), Ralph and Adelin Linton, pp. 8, 18-20.
With the introduction of Christianity the viewpoint toward birthday celebrations did not change. Jesus inaugurated a binding Memorial, not of his birth, but of his death, saying: “Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” (Lu 22:19) If early Christians did not celebrate or memorialize the birthday of their Savior, much less would they celebrate their own day of birth. Historian Augustus Neander writes: “The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period.” (The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries, translated by H. J. Rose, 1848, p. 190)
“Origen [a writer of the third century C.E.] . . . insists that ‘of all the holy people in the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod) who make great rejoicings over the day on which they were born into this world below.‘”: The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913, Vol. X, p. 709.
Page 3
Clearly, then, the festive celebration of birthdays does not find its origin in either the Hebrew or the Greek Scriptures. Additionally, M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (1882, Vol. I, p. 817) says the Jews “regarded birthday celebrations as parts of idolatrous worship . . . , and this probably on account of the idolatrous rites with which they were observed in honor of those who were regarded as the patron gods of the day on which the party was born.

Le livre des religions (The Book of Religions), an encyclopedia widely distributed in France, calls this custom a ritual and lists it among “secular rites.” Although considered to be a harmless secular custom today, birthday celebrations are actually rooted in paganism.

The Encyclopedia Americana (1991 edition) states: The ancient world of Egypt, Greece, Rome, and Persia celebrated the birthdays of gods, kings, and nobles.
Authors Ralph and Adelin Linton reveal the underlying reason for this. In their book The Lore of Birthdays, they write: Mesopotamia and Egypt, the cradles of civilization, were also the first lands in which men remembered and honored their birthdays. The keeping of birthday records was important in ancient times principally because a birth date was essential for the casting of a horoscope. This direct connection with astrology is a cause of great concern to any who avoid astrology because of what the Bible says about it. Isaiah 47:13-15.

The World Book Encyclopedia: The early Christians did not celebrate His [Christ’s] birth because they considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom. Volume 3, page 416.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Once again you lie about my words. I do not believe first and last applies to Jesus alone- it applies to both teh Father and teh Son!

Just like the name Yahweh applies to both the Father and the Son as SCripture shows.

Jesus is also called Yahweh in James 5! for Jesus is the Lord of Sabaoth which in Hebrew is Yahweh of hosts

Even watchtower false doctrine which says Jesus is Michael the archangel calls him the head of the hosts of heaven.

The Bible point blank stated Jehovah at Isa 44:6:
Isa 44:6 Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. You even said that yourself. I assumed you used that verse because it also had a shared title between Jehovah and Jesus. It was referring to God as it said in the verse, God only, no one else Ron.

Jesus is not called Yahweh in James either.

Jesus was not called Jesus until he came to earth, although the Bible still refers to him as Jesus in the heavens, he went back to being called by his own name most likely. I gave you evidence of him being Michael, you disagree, simple as that. I believe he is the highest angel, second only to Jehovah sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

The mystery or confusion and the error lies in the reality that what is born of God is indeed God, for He gave of Himself and they return to Him. Even so, this same Jesus, unlike ourselves, was of the same glory and One even before the world was.

Yes sir, Jesus even had a hand in it's creation. Were you aware that Jesus was the beginning of the creation of God, His first and only creation done solely by Him alone? Of course when He created His firstborn, nothing else existed. It is impossible for us to understand, but God always existed. I am not sure if we will ever understand that.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Sorry @Robert Gwin, but I should think this is applicable.

Back to you @Wrangler,

That is a strange translation that would appear to lean in the direction that you are suggesting. But no matter. It still explains the truth--not as you have suggested, but as it is written and actually is. Which is to say, that there is indeed a purposeful appearance of Jesus not being God, which does not define Him as not being God, but rather that He is...as only God could go (as the scriptures say) from being of the same glory as the Father, to be exposed to all manner--every manner of sin and unrighteousness, and not incinerate the world--which is coming, but is held off. The point is, that miracle of God is a miracle that only He could accomplish in being both God and man, which no mere man alone could accomplish or do.

Thus, I would submit that just as Yellow is not White and neither is Red, that a Yellow house with White trim built upon a Redbrick foundation, each being a rightful component....is nonetheless One house.

Was Adam God Scott? Remember Jesus was a corresponding ransom, equal to Adam. Jesus has never been equal to God even in the heavens sir.

 

[Wrangler]

much of the scriptures only point to what is ultimately true...

Jesus said he has a God - who we relate to as father - who is the only true God. What does this ‘point to?’