Are Jehovah’s Witness Christians?

[Gregory]

first thanks for that reply, and correct that the Lord Jesus did not any human biological father or mother, but only a surrogate mother who carried that flesh and bone with blood body for him to dwell in.

but one other thing, you're correct in saying that, "that Jesus was the only man ever begotten by the Holy Spirit.", which is scripture, Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."

Now a teaching question, is not the one who conceives the Child is called the "Father" of that child? correct..... yes or no?

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Was it the Holy Spirit that conceived? OR was it the power of the Highest (God the Father)? See Luke 1:35.

Tell me why the power of the Highest overshadowed Mary?

 

[jaybird]

again, all denominations have some good points, I agree, but if lacking in one point, then it no Good. as sho just said, it is the Spirit that we must follow.... IN ALL THINGS.... yes the Roman Catholic have some good beliefs, but are they correct in all doctrine? no, just as the baptist and any other protestant religions out there.

here is my bottom line. READ YOUR BIBLE, AND LET THE HOLY SPIRIT GUIDE YOU, because as said, all religions have some GOOD STRONG POINTS. but if any religion tells you to follow somthing that is not of God, reject it.

and lastly, even in those religions, at least they are preaching christ, even out of envy or strife, and here is where I agree with the apostle, Philippians 1:12 "But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel;" Philippians 1:13 "So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places;" Philippians 1:14 "And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear." Philippians 1:15 "Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:" Philippians 1:16 "The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:" Philippians 1:17 "But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel." Philippians 1:18 "What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice." Philippians 1:19 "For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,"Philippians 1:20 "According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death."

so I rejoice also, even out a false mouth Christ is preached. and when one get exposed to the word of God then one's eyes will began to open. this is what happen to, I believe in certian doctrines, because this is what I was taught ... first. and when I learned more, then I STARTED TO ASK QUESTIONS.

well, (smile), when you start to ask question, then one will see if what you believed is really true. so again I say... READ YOUR BIBLE, WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AS YOUR GUIDE.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

I agree with most if not all of what you said. One of the big steps for me was when I started studying the bible in my early 30s, like you mentioned, this time I wasnt just reading, now I was spending months at a time on just one book, cross referencing all these little phrases over and over, praying before I start, and stopping every so often to pray for more guidance. One problem I ran into is that often I would get carried away with these studies which would lead to me neglecting others, my family, friends, elderly in the community, etc. IMO study/prayer/meditation is very important but the time needs to be divided between this and real actions, helping those in need, serving the greater good. If all your time is spent studying and discussing but produce no good works then your doing something wrong.

 

[jaybird]

Thank you. You have articulated your position very well.

Whether one follows/accepts a group of men and their teaching (interpretation of Scripture) or you follow your own interpretation of Scripture you are still following a man!

Mary

thank you MM

i get what your saying on the following man, i agree but dont agree, its a bit more complicated than that. how did Paul learn?

 

[Gregory]

First thanks for the reply, second, the earthly body came OUT of mary, and not from mary... Correct, (Hebrews 10:5). then the spirit that was in that body is not from Mary either, or any other human, correct? lets see, Isaiah 42:5 "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:" for when we die... naturally, our, hold it, not our spirits, but his spirit, that he gave us return to him. so the spirit within us is not ours.

so in conclusion, Mary was only the carrier of flesh and bone with blood, a baby. the only thing she and Joseph was to do is to make sure it was LEGAL, by staying married.

Matthew 1:19 "Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily."Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."Matthew 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."Matthew 1:22 "Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,"Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."Matthew 1:24 "Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:"Matthew 1:25 "And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

so in conclusion, Mary was only the carrier of flesh and bone with blood, a baby. the only thing she and Joseph was to do is to make sure it was LEGAL, by staying married.

You say that Mary was not the mother of Jesus, but the bible says that she is several places. 2 of them are:
Matthew 1:18 and Matthew 2:11.

I ask this in all sincerity: Do you not think Jesus has a mother so you can believe Hebrews 7:3 is about Jesus?

 

[BobVance]

MY neighbor says yes they are, however he as a Jehovah does not believe that Jesus is the son of God. Now I do not care what he believes, however I fail to see how a Christian would not accept and acknowledge the risen Christ.

Not trying to flame any JW's but Catholics, Baptist, Protestants and every other Christian denomination that I know all see Christ as the son of God

So. Are Jehovah’s Witness Christians?

Respectfully they are not Christians. They deny the deity of Christ, that in and of itself says that they are not Christians.
I have had a lot of interaction with them, they don’t care what anyone says, concerning Jesus

 

[Truther]

John 10:30 "I and my Father are one." same one person, only diversified as I said... "the equal share", as Phil 2:6 states.... BINGO.... next.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Not same person, but unified as one....


21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.


Not this....

21 That they all may be one; NOT THE SAME AS as thou, Father, art ...omit....me, and I ....omit...thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me....

.....which is what oneness implies.

 

[Truther]

Begotten means to bring into existence by the process of sexual reproduction but in this case without sex. Of course God created a perfect sperm cell to enter Mary's egg. I agree with everything you said. Is this supposed to be a rebuttal?

No, you are correct.

But what you just said means that there is no such thing as God incarnate, but that Jesus was an individual of a man, lest Mary is the mother of God.

 

[Truther]

Truther said:
According to JW's, a virgin gave birth to an archangel.[/Quote\]

You either don't know what you're talking about or you're outright lying about the JW.
JW have always claim that the Only Begotten Son of God became human to save humanity. You and I both know an Archangel isn't human.
What the JW teach is that before the Only Begotten Son of God became human, being born of a virgin, he was the Archangel Michael. That was when he was in heaven before he was born a human baby. So the JW have never taught that the virgin Mary gave birth to an Archangel.

Barney, explain the process of how Michael the Archangel got in Mary's uterus microscopically and was born with an umbilical cord.

Thanks.

 

[101G]

First of all, I believe that God the Father and Jesus are one, only in that they are one in purpose and unity. But they are not one physically. I do not believe they are the same person.

Your reference to Phillipians 2:6 does not prove they are the same person either. It just proves that Jesus is in the form of God, but he is not God the Father.
That's interesting, lets look at that scripture a little closer:
Philippians 2:5-7 King James Version (KJV)
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

So in 5, we know we are talking about Jesus Christ.
In 6, we are taught that Jesus is in the form of God. Wow, if Jesus is in the form of God, then God the Father must then be in the form of Jesus, right? That means that Jesus, having a body of flesh and bone and blood, so must the Father. (but you will find out that God the Father has a resurrected body of flesh and bone, infused with eternal spirit). But it looks the same as the natural body, except it may have a bit of a glow.
Verse 7 is very interesting because it says that at the exact same time Jesus is in the form of God, he is also in the form of a servant, in the likeness of man. Jesus in the form of God and in the form of a servant, in the likeness of man. So God also must be in the likeness of man also. Have you ever thought of that? Well, here you have it in scripture.

thanks for the reply, second ERROR. listen, and learn, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

now Gregory, school is open.
#1. being here, is a verb, indicating "PRESENT TENSE". meaning now at that time, he, Jesus is in the #2. form which is the NATURE of God... "Spirit", per John 4:24. this has nothing to do with the mind, but God's NATURE. now the next thing, ... WHAT kind of Nature? answer in the scripture, a NATURE, "EQUAL" with the Spirit/God. but the question you asked, "if Jesus is in the form of God, then God the Father must then be in the form of Jesus". (smile), lets see. first thing. "EQUAL" with? is there anyone EQUAL ... "WITH" God? not Equal ... TO .. God, but Equal with God, meaning a separate and distinct person. well the answer to that is NO, listen to the bible. Isaiah 46:5 "To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?" NO ONE, and lets eliminate any other ... Person.. Isaiah 44:8 "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."me and I are single designations. so any three persons are eliminated, now back to the Lord Jesus. the Form of God here is
G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
[perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts)]
KJV: form
Root(s): G3313

now listen and learn, since the Lord Jesus is not a separate and distinct person, then he must be God himself, but wait, was not the Lord G2758 κενόω kenoo while in flesh verse 7.. so if it was the, I and the Me that no one is EQUAL WITH, then God G2758 κενόω kenoo himself while in flesh. don't be silly... lol, see the ROOT of G3444 μορφή morphe is, G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros) n. 1. a portion (i.e. an amount allotted, a part of something). do you KNOW WHAT'S ANOTHER WORD FOR, "PORTION" , IS? that's right, "SHARE". the Lord Jesus is the EQUAL SHARE of himself in flesh. other words, Jesus is the "ANOTHER" of himself in FLESH... God in Flesh.... . this is the ordinal LAST, as in the First and the Last, scripture, Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:" BINGO, oh yes, he and the Father are ONE... lol, my God how blind can one be. yes, ONE, as the "EQUAL SHARE", as phil 2:6 states... BINGO.

Now, "WITH", listen, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." see that? the first "WITH" the last, just as in John 1:1, the Word with God..... now LEARN, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." oh yes, the Son and the Father are "ONE"..... YIKES!... what you say...

so, as said, go back and re-read this post, and understand the ordinal First, Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"
and the ordinal Last, 1 Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

so Greg, .... learn anything?, if not just ask..... ... oh the beauty of "diversified oneness"...

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Truther]

thanks for the reply, second ERROR. listen, and learn, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

now Gregory, school is open.
#1. being here, is a verb, indicating "PRESENT TENSE". meaning now at that time, he, Jesus is in the #2. form which is the NATURE of God... "Spirit", per John 4:24. this has nothing to do with the mind, but God's NATURE. now the next thing, ... WHAT kind of Nature? answer in the scripture, a NATURE, "EQUAL" with the Spirit/God. but the question you asked, "if Jesus is in the form of God, then God the Father must then be in the form of Jesus". (smile), lets see. first thing. "EQUAL" with? is there anyone EQUAL ... "WITH" God? not Equal ... TO .. God, but Equal with God, meaning a separate and distinct person. well the answer to that is NO, listen to the bible. Isaiah 46:5 "To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?" NO ONE, and lets eliminate any other ... Person.. Isaiah 44:8 "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."me and I are single designations. so any three persons are eliminated, now back to the Lord Jesus. the Form of God here is
G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
[perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts)]
KJV: form
Root(s): G3313

now listen and learn, since the Lord Jesus is not a separate and distinct person, then he must be God himself, but wait, was not the Lord G2758 κενόω kenoo while in flesh verse 7.. so if it was the, I and the Me that no one is EQUAL WITH, then God G2758 κενόω kenoo himself while in flesh. don't be silly... lol, see the ROOT of G3444 μορφή morphe is, G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros) n. 1. a portion (i.e. an amount allotted, a part of something). do you KNOW WHAT'S ANOTHER WORD FOR, "PORTION" , IS? that's right, "SHARE". the Lord Jesus is the EQUAL SHARE of himself in flesh. other words, Jesus is the "ANOTHER" of himself in FLESH... God in Flesh.... . this is the ordinal LAST, as in the First and the Last, scripture, Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:" BINGO, oh yes, he and the Father are ONE... lol, my God how blind can one be. yes, ONE, as the "EQUAL SHARE", as phil 2:6 states... BINGO.

Now, "WITH", listen, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." see that? the first "WITH" the last, just as in John 1:1, the Word with God..... now LEARN, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." oh yes, the Son and the Father are "ONE"..... YIKES!... what you say...

so, as said, go back and re-read this post, and understand the ordinal First, Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"
and the ordinal Last, 1 Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

so Greg, .... learn anything?, if not just ask..... ... oh the beauty of "diversified oneness"...

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Please describe God's form?

Like, what does this form look like and it's dimensions, or edges etc?

Thanks.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The point is that the word or title "Elohim" is the word Moses decided was the correct word to use. Otherwise he would chosen a singular word for God. The Hebrews being total "one God" people, have tried for 2000 years with the "majesty context" and the "singular verbal predicate", to correct Moses by making his plural God into a singular God, but you simply cannot ignore Moses choice of words.

Moses choice of "Elohim" is confirmed in Genesis 1:26, 3:22, and 11:7 . Us Christians certainly know why.

You can continue to use the definition for Elohim as though it's talking about three person in a godhead, but it isn't. You and others who call yourself christians don't get to decide that hebrew grammer doesn't matter. Just as grammer matters in the english language it matters in the hebrew language. When the hebrew word Elohim is used in regard to the The True God it is invariably construed with a singular verbal predicate, and takes a singular adjectival attribute so Elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural, which is denoting greatness and majesty, being equal to The Great God.” You can deny the grammer all you want but grammer is important in every language including the hebrew language. The grammer in the hebrew language shows that Elohim was never used to define God as three persons in a godhead.

 

[101G]

I agree with most if not all of what you said. One of the big steps for me was when I started studying the bible in my early 30s, like you mentioned, this time I wasnt just reading, now I was spending months at a time on just one book, cross referencing all these little phrases over and over, praying before I start, and stopping every so often to pray for more guidance. One problem I ran into is that often I would get carried away with these studies which would lead to me neglecting others, my family, friends, elderly in the community, etc. IMO study/prayer/meditation is very important but the time needs to be divided between this and real actions, helping those in need, serving the greater good. If all your time is spent studying and discussing but produce no good works then your doing something wrong.

I agree, I did the same thing, understand, Rome was not built in a DAY... (smile), nor learning the Word of God. God gave you a family, so take care of your family, ok. as for me, yes I study, and research... but God is not going anywhere. so take your time, God know you and your time with your family, (God knows I know, been there). now let me give you a spiritual tip, it works for me. when I lay down at night, I read years ago, where David said mediate day and night, but we sleep at night, right... well my flesh do, but my spirit is still awake. I find myself asleep, but my spirit is going over what I have learn that day, or heard. my mind, as you say is cross referencing, putting one and one of sctiptures together. my best activity indulging in the Word of God is at night. now I do study in the DAY too, ok. but every chance I get I'm studying, (especially since I have retired now). so I have time, even when I was working I found time to study. but as Long as your heart is after God, he will increase your understanding of his word.

so when you get down time put God in there, and he will increase you in his knowledge. get the small thing, because when you have a lot of small thing they make big things. so put your spiritual mind on God, and at night download those thought to your mind and you'll be ready for the next day.... but you're doing the right thing, stay in prayer with God.

be blessed.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[101G]

You say that Mary was not the mother of Jesus, but the bible says that she is several places. 2 of them are:
Matthew 1:18 and Matthew 2:11.

I ask this in all sincerity: Do you not think Jesus has a mother so you can believe Hebrews 7:3 is about Jesus?

My God G, can you comprehen? listen, Mary is only the "BIRTH MOTHER", to the flesh and blood that he Jesus came in. Mary is not the biological mother of that flesh, but only the surrogate mother, Got it now?

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[101G]

Not same person, but unified as one....

see post #179

.....which is what oneness implies.

Diversity, in Ordinal......

Please describe God's form?

Spirit

Like, what does this form look like and it's dimensions, or edges etc?

omnipresent

see post @179..... ;)

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

grammar, not grammer

 

[Marymog]

thank you MM

i get what your saying on the following man, i agree but dont agree, its a bit more complicated than that. how did Paul learn?

Paul was taught by Jesus.

I sincerely hope your going to tie this all together....

 

[jaybird]

Paul was taught by Jesus.

I sincerely hope your going to tie this all together....

can we not learn as Paul did?

 

[Truther]

see post #179


Diversity, in Ordinal......


Spirit


omnipresent

see post @179..... ;)

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Please describe an omnipresent Spirit's form.

 

[mjrhealth]

You can continue to use the definition for Elohim as though it's talking about three person in a godhead, but it isn't. You and others who call yourself christians don't get to decide that hebrew grammer doesn't matter. Just as grammer matters in the english language it matters in the hebrew language. When the hebrew word Elohim is used in regard to the The True God it is invariably construed with a singular verbal predicate, and takes a singular adjectival attribute so Elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural, which is denoting greatness and majesty, being equal to The Great God.” You can deny the grammer all you want but grammer is important in every language including the hebrew language. The grammer in the hebrew language shows that Elohim was never used to define God as three persons in a godhead.

In Gods Kingoom intelligence and smarts account for little, look what happened to Paul.

Luk_10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

But men are proud think because they study, yet have no "knowledge" of God.

2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

In Gods Kingoom intelligence and smarts account for little, look what happened to Paul.

Luk_10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

But men are proud think because they study, yet have no "knowledge" of God.

2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Well I'm not going to speak out against studying the scriptures and neither did Jesus.