Are Christians to forgive everyone or only those who repent?

[Helen]

From experience it starts with a willingness. Without willingness you go nowhere. I'll tell you my story in short form....

Quiet some years back I was engaged to get married. It stalled for reasons I'm all too familiar with meaning that difficulties that surfaced where not spoken about. She was unwilling to get to the core of the issues although I lived in hope. She developed interests which I had no interest in. She met a man from these circles and it wasn't long before his car was parked outside her place all night. Joining the dots was a no brainer but it crippled me, not just emotionally but physically. I was seething to the max.
Now, my situation is I am fit, working out and running regularly but within twelve months of this happening parts of my body were shutting or breaking down. To be specific, my hips. Pain was developing to the point I couldn't stand straight upright and found myself bent over and shuffling to walk with very limited articulation in the joint.
X-rays revealed both hip joints to be totally worn out....no cartilage left. It was bone on bone grinding itself away. I could believe my eyes when I saw the X-rays and my ears when the Doc said hip replacements were the only option.
The emotional load had superimposed itself physically. I'm assuming you understand the connection and how it works? for example if we focus our thoughts on bitting into a lemon you will find saliva gathering in your mouth or again, If you maintain sexy thoughts your body responds.
Conclusion....what you think/feel/focus on results in physical changes either for good or bad.

The emotional upheaval was afresh every time I thought of this betrayal, like a tsunami. Yes, I knew I should forgive but i had no power to execute it because the memories and the resentments took over. This went on and on and on even though I had cut all communication with her.
I finally earnestly asked God to give me strength to forgive; to give me the willingness not to hold it against her as it wasn't possible for me to generate forgiveness. Every time I caught myself starting the resentment cycle I would cut it short by crying to God for help
Time went by, the hips were replaced and slowly my health got back on track as I prayed and maintained my daily choice to forgive the resentments and the caustic thinking faded without me being conscious of it.

One day years later there was a knock at my door, I opened it to see her standing there in tears apologising for her behaviour at that time. I invited her in and we managed to talk as honestly as our courage allowed. She ended up marrying this guy and tells me they have a good relationship. As for my relationship with her....we now have a friendship above what I had imagined was possible in those caustic years.

Sooo, what have I learnt from all this? I have learnt that problems/issues that arise can and only will be overcome if I am willing. I make a choice, I ask God for strength, I maintain my choice irrespective of feelings that surface and live in gratitude of God's support.

This is worth more that just a "like" @quietthinker Thank you for sharing such a lovely positive testimony to God's grace in our life when we allow it to flow.

 

[Nancy]

I get that we have to be mannered. I don't dispute that children should be taught to not act outwardly on anger, for the good of society at large.

What I object to is if I begin to think that is loving someone. Its not. It's being mannered. It is not loving in principle and its not loving in truth. It is hiding your murder for the sake and smooth functioning of society. Its fine. Its maybe even good. But its not love.

The whole thing here is disturbing to me Jen. Can you really love your neighbor if just the thought of them can sometimes raise your BP? For myself, all I do anymore is ask God for His forgiveness toward this person/people because, I know the anger is still in my heart, to some degree. And yeah, I too feel like a murderer when that happens...there is nothing but to trust He will make it happen in my heart; the more I ask Him too. Just glad not to have to be around them anymore..

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The whole thing here is disturbing to me Jen. Can you really love your neighbor if just the thought of them can sometimes raise your BP? For myself, all I do anymore is ask God for His forgiveness toward this person/people because, I know the anger is still in my heart, to some degree. And yeah, I too feel like a murderer when that happens...there is nothing but to trust He will make it happen in my heart; the more I ask Him too. Just glad not to have to be around them anymore..

But see, I think...I can be mannered outwardly, and I should be. And I can be honest. I can see when the temptation to seethe begins to pull me under and I can cry to Him for help and He helps me to not go under. And it works for the next time and the next time and the next, if I just see the temptation and cry to Him. But I also see that there's something in me that WANTS to go under and seethe and bathe in the resentment and revenge. And it makes me hate myself, but it also makes me cry to Him.

I can try for years, decades even, to not be that way, but I will always have that in me and be that way. The only relief I've ever got comes from crying out to Him, not from trying to not be this way or rehearsing all the reasons I should stop being this way

I think the realization has to come of what I am and that realization has to STAY. I feel I am moving toward somewhere, but at the same time, I begin moving away from that somewhere. I think the moving away happens when I forget what I am and begin to think I am maybe getting better.

 

[Truth]

From experience it starts with a willingness. Without willingness you go nowhere. I'll tell you my story in short form....

Quiet some years back I was engaged to get married. It stalled for reasons I'm all too familiar with meaning that difficulties that surfaced where not spoken about. She was unwilling to get to the core of the issues although I lived in hope. She developed interests which I had no interest in. She met a man from these circles and it wasn't long before his car was parked outside her place all night. Joining the dots was a no brainer but it crippled me, not just emotionally but physically. I was seething to the max.
Now, my situation is I am fit, working out and running regularly but within twelve months of this happening parts of my body were shutting or breaking down. To be specific, my hips. Pain was developing to the point I couldn't stand straight upright and found myself bent over and shuffling to walk with very limited articulation in the joint.
X-rays revealed both hip joints to be totally worn out....no cartilage left. It was bone on bone grinding itself away. I could believe my eyes when I saw the X-rays and my ears when the Doc said hip replacements were the only option.
The emotional load had superimposed itself physically. I'm assuming you understand the connection and how it works? for example if we focus our thoughts on bitting into a lemon you will find saliva gathering in your mouth or again, If you maintain sexy thoughts your body responds.
Conclusion....what you think/feel/focus on results in physical changes either for good or bad.

The emotional upheaval was afresh every time I thought of this betrayal, like a tsunami. Yes, I knew I should forgive but i had no power to execute it because the memories and the resentments took over. This went on and on and on even though I had cut all communication with her.
I finally earnestly asked God to give me strength to forgive; to give me the willingness not to hold it against her as it wasn't possible for me to generate forgiveness. Every time I caught myself starting the resentment cycle I would cut it short by crying to God for help
Time went by, the hips were replaced and slowly my health got back on track as I prayed and maintained my daily choice to forgive the resentments and the caustic thinking faded without me being conscious of it.

One day years later there was a knock at my door, I opened it to see her standing there in tears apologising for her behaviour at that time. I invited her in and we managed to talk as honestly as our courage allowed. She ended up marrying this guy and tells me they have a good relationship. As for my relationship with her....we now have a friendship above what I had imagined was possible in those caustic years.

Sooo, what have I learnt from all this? I have learnt that problems/issues that arise can and only will be overcome if I am willing. I make a choice, I ask God for strength, I maintain my choice irrespective of feelings that surface and live in gratitude of God's support.

I do agree with Helen, went through a similar experience many moons ago, with one exception, at the time I was not a believer. But the crippling effects brought me to my knee's! His saving Grace restored me, in more ways than one!
To Our Savior and Father be All Glory, Amen

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I guess what I'm saying is, should I find the whole thing disturbing as you say, Nancy? What exactly disturbs me about it? Its what I am. I can't change it. It will never change. I have to walk away from it because it will never get better. I can't cling to it, It has to die.

I'm at the point where I am learning to refuse to feed it by crying out to Him when it opens its ravenous mouth.

And I hope on: after you have struggled with sin for a while, He will establish, confirm and strengthen you.

 

[upwardmoving]

The pastor in our bible study remarked that we're called to forgive any offense, yet the following two verses seem to contradict one another and I wondered how others converged the two verses. The one verse does call us to forgive all offenses, yet the verse in Luke calls us to rebuke and seems to make forgiveness conditional upon whether someone repents or not.

Matthew 6:15

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”

Luke 17:3

“Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.”

Forgiveness is an action of LOVE. Jesus said " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." to love... even our 'enemies'. We are Kings and Priests; we are the offspring of GOD, in Christ Jesus. God is LOVE.

 

[Soverign Grace]

I don't suppose you have a verse(s) that could help with what you say here? I'm trying to grasp that I can be loving someone when my heart is murdering them in resentment for how I've been treated. I cannot accept that what you've said is true because Jesus said anger in my heart is to have already murdered someone.

Another reason why I'm having trouble accepting it is because I see people all the time trying to HIDE their murderous resentment but their whole body and face shows what they are doing. Its ridiculous, this useless way we were taught to do (the useless conversation of our parents the apostle says we are to reject), and reminds me of my dog when he is behind some tiny little tree, thinking because he can't see me, I can't see him either!

So a verse might help me. Because to my eye, what you have said here sounds like...work on the outside of your cup and the inside will catch up and be clean later.

It seems to me like Adam in the garden, trying to hide from God because he did wrong.

I appreciate your emotional honesty.

 

[Soverign Grace]

As soon as one come's to realize that holding on to the resentment has little or no effect on the offender!
I was cheated out of an abundant Inheritance, I came to realize that there is nothing in this world worth losing salvation for!
There have been many other offence's throughout my life that only crippled me, until I let go. both Spiritually and Physically!
There will be a day when all things hidden will be revealed and HE who was tempted as we are and have been, without Sin will be the ONE to deliver Justice. So be of good Heart, He will Vindicate all who were Offended!
Out of the Abundance of our Heart, come's good or evil! Let not your Heart be altered by the evil act of other's.
There is a Great Peace, when we Forgive!! It's not hard, You will See.

The thing that I wonder about is that if Christians too readily forgive that it a) emboldens a wrongdoer b) sees to it that the behavior is repeated.

There are some times when it is right to fight - I just have a hard time figuring out when. You know if your child does something wrong and you just forgive them without disciplining them they'll likely repeat the bad behavior. Sometimes I think it works that way with other adults.

If someone drives drunk you don't just give them a pass - they pay a heavy price. I just wonder if Christians may be actually harmful for not holding wrongdoers accountable.

And sometimes I think if the offense is so great then at times there is no choice but to terminate a relationship permanently.

 

[Soverign Grace]

From experience it starts with a willingness. Without willingness you go nowhere. I'll tell you my story in short form....

Quiet some years back I was engaged to get married. It stalled for reasons I'm all too familiar with meaning that difficulties that surfaced where not spoken about. She was unwilling to get to the core of the issues although I lived in hope. She developed interests which I had no interest in. She met a man from these circles and it wasn't long before his car was parked outside her place all night. Joining the dots was a no brainer but it crippled me, not just emotionally but physically. I was seething to the max.
Now, my situation is I am fit, working out and running regularly but within twelve months of this happening parts of my body were shutting or breaking down. To be specific, my hips. Pain was developing to the point I couldn't stand straight upright and found myself bent over and shuffling to walk with very limited articulation in the joint.
X-rays revealed both hip joints to be totally worn out....no cartilage left. It was bone on bone grinding itself away. I could believe my eyes when I saw the X-rays and my ears when the Doc said hip replacements were the only option.
The emotional load had superimposed itself physically. I'm assuming you understand the connection and how it works? for example if we focus our thoughts on bitting into a lemon you will find saliva gathering in your mouth or again, If you maintain sexy thoughts your body responds.
Conclusion....what you think/feel/focus on results in physical changes either for good or bad.

The emotional upheaval was afresh every time I thought of this betrayal, like a tsunami. Yes, I knew I should forgive but i had no power to execute it because the memories and the resentments took over. This went on and on and on even though I had cut all communication with her.
I finally earnestly asked God to give me strength to forgive; to give me the willingness not to hold it against her as it wasn't possible for me to generate forgiveness. Every time I caught myself starting the resentment cycle I would cut it short by crying to God for help
Time went by, the hips were replaced and slowly my health got back on track as I prayed and maintained my daily choice to forgive the resentments and the caustic thinking faded without me being conscious of it.

One day years later there was a knock at my door, I opened it to see her standing there in tears apologising for her behaviour at that time. I invited her in and we managed to talk as honestly as our courage allowed. She ended up marrying this guy and tells me they have a good relationship. As for my relationship with her....we now have a friendship above what I had imagined was possible in those caustic years.

Sooo, what have I learnt from all this? I have learnt that problems/issues that arise can and only will be overcome if I am willing. I make a choice, I ask God for strength, I maintain my choice irrespective of feelings that surface and live in gratitude of God's support.

That was a powerful story. Especially the physical effect of the emotions. Was there a happy ending - did you meet someone else?

 

[Soverign Grace]

I take what Jesus said to mean that we ALWAYS forgive no matter what else we do. If there is any rebuking to do, we go to that person with a heart of forgiveness.

This is off-topic but can I ask how you manage to homeschool and work? I got emails from several different Christian organizations warning me to get children out of public school. I'm urging those I know to do this but one person asked how you can do it and work. I'm going to ask a guy in our bible study. He works in a public school too and homeschools - or rather his kids do online school. I know the public school has online school but you'd still be in Common Core right?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

This is off-topic but can I ask how you manage to homeschool and work? I got emails from several different Christian organizations warning me to get children out of public school. I'm urging those I know to do this but one person asked how you can do it and work. I'm going to ask a guy in our bible study. He works in a public school too and homeschools - or rather his kids do online school. I know the public school has online school but you'd still be in Common Core right?

Good morning!

Most of the years I've home schooled, our family had a home business. Now, I work at home. But my girls are pretty much finished with school at this point. My youngest is finishing up with a few classes.

If God calls parents to home school, he will make a way. He always has for me, and I am so grateful for this! Knowing what I know about what the schools are doing, I could not in good conscience place a child in a public school. But every parent needs to seek God about what He would have them do. At the very least, parents can become informed about Common Core....
.

 

[Truth]

The thing that I wonder about is that if Christians too readily forgive that it a) emboldens a wrongdoer b) sees to it that the behavior is repeated.

There are some times when it is right to fight - I just have a hard time figuring out when. You know if your child does something wrong and you just forgive them without disciplining them they'll likely repeat the bad behavior. Sometimes I think it works that way with other adults.

If someone drives drunk you don't just give them a pass - they pay a heavy price. I just wonder if Christians may be actually harmful for not holding wrongdoers accountable.

And sometimes I think if the offense is so great then at times there is no choice but to terminate a relationship permanently.

I do not believe we need to go to the offender and blatantly verbally express that we forgive them!!!!!!!
Forgiveness take's place within US, now if the offender asks for or apologizes [ repents] You can then verbally express " I forgave you already" Love starts within.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Every time I caught myself starting the resentment cycle I would cut it short by crying to God for help

Yes. I have learned to do this. In that temptation to resentfully murder, He gives a way out. That way out is to see the temptation and to cry to Him that my feet are slipping.

 

[Soverign Grace]

Good morning!

Most of the years I've home schooled, our family had a home business. Now, I work at home. But my girls are pretty much finished with school at this point. My youngest is finishing up with a few classes.

If God calls parents to home school, he will make a way. He always has for me, and I am so grateful for this! Knowing what I know about what the schools are doing, I could not in good conscience place a child in a public school. But every parent needs to seek God about what He would have them do. At the very least, parents can become informed about Common Core....
.

Thank you for your response. Please join me in prayer - I see one being led astray in the public school system and I've been urging the parents to withdraw him from public school. I learned you cannot place a Christian child in a public school without consequence. I almost have the parents convinced. I will share what you've said. They formerly had a home business but not now. God will have to make a way.

Did you use a Christian online school or did you use your own curriculum? My friend's daughter homeschools using her own curriculum and meets with other homeschoolers. It's much more work however; but I imagine the rewards are greater.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Thank you for your response. Please join me in prayer - I see one being led astray in the public school system and I've been urging the parents to withdraw him from public school. I learned you cannot place a Christian child in a public school without consequence. I almost have the parents convinced. I will share what you've said. They formerly had a home business but not now. God will have to make a way.

Did you use a Christian online school or did you use your own curriculum? My friend's daughter homeschools using her own curriculum and meets with other homeschoolers. It's much more work however; but I imagine the rewards are greater.

My oldest did A Beka videos. Now A Beka does DVD's and streaming. I used Bob Jones Home Sat some, but they don't do satellite anymore. They stream over the Internet. I also used Switched-On Schoolhouse some in the earlier grades. It's pretty good through grade 6; then it gets horrible. We encountered things like math tests covering material that hadn't been covered in the curriculum yet.... There are some really good curriculums available that come complete with lesson plans. Since I had been a public school teacher, I can easily do my own lesson plans. But some parents need this.

State departments of education are offering online schools these days, but this means that the state controls the child's education. This is probably better than public schools, but parents need to be aware that they'll have some of the same problems. One of the biggest problems is the testing. Online state schools use the same state testing as public schools. These tests, now called assessments, generate psychological profiles on children. Parents have no control over what is done with the data....

Please, feel free to ask any other questions you may have. Blessings!

 

[Nancy]

But see, I think...I can be mannered outwardly, and I should be. And I can be honest. I can see when the temptation to seethe begins to pull me under and I can cry to Him for help and He helps me to not go under. And it works for the next time and the next time and the next, if I just see the temptation and cry to Him. But I also see that there's something in me that WANTS to go under and seethe and bathe in the resentment and revenge. And it makes me hate myself, but it also makes me cry to Him.

I can try for years, decades even, to not be that way, but I will always have that in me and be that way. The only relief I've ever got comes from crying out to Him, not from trying to not be this way or rehearsing all the reasons I should stop being this way

I think the realization has to come of what I am and that realization has to STAY. I feel I am moving toward somewhere, but at the same time, I begin moving away from that somewhere. I think the moving away happens when I forget what I am and begin to think I am maybe getting better.

I do the same thing and wonder also if this part of me is forever It is my thoughts towards certain people that start it all. I bring those thoughts down as quick as they come...mostly that works yet at times, it does not which, tells me that it is ME who has to make it happen? How does one conjure up good feeling toward someone we had nothing but bad experiences with? I always ask God, "God, what's wrong with me"? Why after years of begging you Father, do I still have this characteristic? Some days are way tougher than others. Please don't hate yourself, because that would make 2 of us on this forum with those self hatred feelings...we are who we are and, when He decides to change or totally rid us of this sensitivity...I guess we just have to look at it like a thorn in the side? My big thing is that I never want to compromise my faith by blowing my witness (of, the way I live, act and speak to others). Nor will I "fake it" around people who rub me the wrong way...I will be outwardly cordial but, will not engage conversation. Seems we are kind of in the same boat!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I do the same thing and wonder also if this part of me is forever It is my thoughts towards certain people that start it all. I bring those thoughts down as quick as they come...mostly that works yet at times, it does not which, tells me that it is ME who has to make it happen? How does one conjure up good feeling toward someone we had nothing but bad experiences with? I always ask God, "God, what's wrong with me"? Why after years of begging you Father, do I still have this characteristic? Some days are way tougher than others. Please don't hate yourself, because that would make 2 of us on this forum with those self hatred feelings...we are who we are and, when He decides to change or totally rid us of this sensitivity...I guess we just have to look at it like a thorn in the side? My big thing is that I never want to compromise my faith by blowing my witness (of, the way I live, act and speak to others). Nor will I "fake it" around people who rub me the wrong way...I will be outwardly cordial but, will not engage conversation. Seems we are kind of in the same boat!

When I say I hate myself, I don't mean it (at least not any longer) in a beaten down type of way...it's more of a...calm acceptance of fact. I think maybe that's the me that must die in order to find my life. So I've started to starve out that person, that life, by crying to God when she thrashes around.

But at the same time, I go back to coddling her at times...

 

[Nancy]

When I say I hate myself, I don't mean it (at least not any longer) in a beaten down type of way...it's more of a...calm acceptance of fact. I think maybe that's the me that must die in order to find my life. So I've started to starve out that person, that life, by crying to God when she thrashes around.

But at the same time, I go back to coddling her at times...

Hating ourselves...maybe I should have re phrased this to mean being so self conscience rather than Christ conscience can bring us down on ourselves, been working on this for awhile now. It is more that I HATE when the ugly rears it's head and, Satan will always want us to hate ourselves. I'm beginning to understand that the more His Holy Spirit shines His light into our hearts, the more we see of our sinfulness, and hence...the "hating" - because it is ugly. But when we are given an opportunity to turn away from those sins, I see this as striving... It has to be the sin we hate, and well we should!; and not ourselves. If Christ is in us then we have Christ life, yes? A new creature... I do not necessarily see "self" as a dirty word...we have a NEW self and, a little bit at a time, will one day believe the "new man" thoroughly.
"I think maybe that's the me that must die in order to find my life. <--- Yes! The OLD you that WAS you :)
So I've started to starve out that person,<---I love the way you put that ..."starve out that person." YES! The OLD man. ... that life, by crying to God when she thrashes around." <--- Lol, you have a way with words Jen :) When He shapes us, it hurts, I suppose depending on how long we have lived in our sin (Most of my life I tell ya!) the longer it will take to kill the old man?
xo

 

[quietthinker]

That was a powerful story. Especially the physical effect of the emotions. Was there a happy ending - did you meet someone else?

lol SG..... I'm a single man :)

 

[Nancy]

lol SG..... I'm a single man :)

That was a very powerful story @quietthinker , thank you for sharing.