Apologetics about Substitutionary Atonement

[Pancho Frijoles]

There's a real meaning, not spiritual. Jesus was really murdered because he had to be the ultimate sacrifice on behalf of humans.

We were out of chance to be again part of the perfect family of God. Jesus gave us that chance back.

Jesus reminded us about a chance that had been always there.
He preached repentance.

Remember: man never lost the chance to be again part of the perfect family of God. The chance was always there.
That's why people in the Old Testament (and in fact, in every civilization on earth) could repent and come back to God.

Psal. 49:7  None of them can ever redeem a brother
Or give to God a ransom for him,
8 (The ransom price for their life is so precious
That it is always beyond their reach);
9 That he should live forever and not see the pit.

Exactly.
In Judaism, there was no such a thing as believing that the death of another person (even the Messiah) was necessary to achieve forgiveness.
In Judaism, every person has to pay the consequences of his own sin, or appeal to the mercy of God, which extends this mercy without asking for any ransom.

Again, please review the parable of the king that forgives his subject a debt that he can't pay. Remember that Jesus Himself was the one explaining through this parable how God's mercy works.

Bahais want to see everything metaphorical, because they don't accept the Scriptures or the sacrifice of Jesus, and they think human problems will be solve by humans, not by God's kingdom.

No, my friend. We don't believe that.
We don't believe that human merits can solve problems. That's why we trust in God. From Him, and only from Him comes the Kingdom.
"Your kingdom come, your will be done, in earth as in heaven"

 

[ElieG12]

I don't think the Bahais are the ones to tell Christians what Jesus' sacrifice meant for humanity or explain to them what the Scriptures mean.

 

[CadyandZoe]

These posts and others by @CadyandZoe show a complete lack of understanding of Original Sin.

It did not merely bring death to 2 individuals who ate fruit; it brought pain, suffering and death into the natural and physical world - for all life from that point on.

This past week I was at the Ark Encounter and Creation Museum in Kentucky. It points out there are 2 types of science, observational and historical. One cannot use one type of science to grasp the other. Observational science presumes incorrectly that processes today also occurred in the past and at the same rate.

For instance, the Law of Heating and Cooling shows that over time a body asymptotically approaches equilibrium, I.e., the rate is not the same over time.

I don't believe in Original Sin.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I don't think the Bahais are the ones to tell Christians what Jesus' sacrifice meant for humanity or explain to them what the Scriptures mean.

Imagine that you are trying to share with a Jew your opinion on what Isaiah meant, and the Jew replies back: "I don't think Christians are the ones to tell us, Jews, what Isaiah meant. These are our Scriptures". What would you think of such reply?

 

[ElieG12]

Imagine that you are trying to share with a Jew your opinion on what Isaiah meant, and the Jew replies back: "I don't think Christians are the ones to tell us, Jews, what Isaiah meant. These are our Scriptures". What would you think of such reply?

First Christians were Jews.

First Bahais were Muslims, not Christians.

You've never been Christians; you don't mind the Scriptures; you don't mind Jesus.

Have an excellent day.

 

[Behold]

Jesus reminded us about a chance that had been always there.
He preached repentance.

Once the Cross of Christ birthed the New Testament Church.........the Gospel that Jesus gave to Paul that we believe and teach is "
""Grace through = FAITH"

"FAITH"... "Justification by Faith". "All that BELIEVE"... "As many as will BELIEVE".....

"without FAITH, it is impossible to please God"...

"FAITH, is counted by GOD, as (Christ's) righteousness", on behalf of the BELIEVER.

The only REPENTING that God will accept, since the Cross of Christ was raised, is.. To REPENT from UNBELIEF into FAITH in Christ.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Once the Cross of Christ birthed the New Testament Church.........the Gospel that Jesus gave to Paul that we believe and teach is "
""Grace through = FAITH"

"FAITH"... "Justification by Faith". "All that BELIEVE"... "As many as will BELIEVE".....

"without FAITH, it is impossible to please God"...

"FAITH, is counted by GOD, as (Christ's) righteousness", on behalf of the BELIEVER.

The only REPENTING that God will accept, since the Cross of Christ was raised, is.. To REPENT from UNBELIEF into FAITH in Christ.

Paul says that Abraham was acceptable to God because of his faith.
All righteous people in the Old Testament were righteous because of their faith. Their faith (trust in God) led them do the right things.

God promised Abraham and his descendants that he would give them the world. This promise wasn't made because Abraham had obeyed a law, but because his faith in God made him acceptable...​

Everything depends on having faith in God, so that God's promise is assured by his gift of undeserved grace. This promise isn't only for Abraham's descendants who have the Law. It is for all who are Abraham's descendants because they have faith, just as he did. Abraham is the ancestor of us all. (Romans 4:13,16)​

So, we should not think that after the cross God changed the conditions for salvation.
People have always been saved by the grace of God that is received by faith.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The only REPENTING that God will accept, since the Cross of Christ was raised, is.. To REPENT from UNBELIEF into FAITH in Christ.

So, in your opinion, God will not forgive your dentist, Dr Steinmann, even when you have forgiven him?
Are you more merciful than God?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Hello CadyandZoe

What happens in the afterlife is s topic rarely, very rarely mentioned in the Tanakh.
The promises God made to Israel were specific, tangible blessings to be enjoyed in this earth… in this life.
Let’s read them in Deuteronomy 28:1-13( Contemporary English Version)

Today I am giving you the laws and teachings of the Lord your God. Always obey them, and the Lord will make Israel the most famous and important nation on earth, and he will bless you in many ways.​

​

The Lord will make your businesses and your farms successful.​

You will have many children. You will harvest large crops, and your herds of cattle and flocks of sheep and goats will produce many young.​

You will have plenty of bread to eat.​

The Lord will make you successful in your daily work.​

The Lord will help you defeat your enemies and make them scatter in all directions.​

The Lord your God is giving you the land, and he will make sure you are successful in everything you do. Your harvests will be so large that your storehouses will be full.​

​

If you follow and obey the Lord, he will make you his own special people, just as he promised. Then everyone on earth will know that you belong to the Lord, and they will be afraid of you.​

The Lord will give you a lot of children and make sure that your animals give birth to many young. The Lordpromised your ancestors that this land would be yours, and he will make it produce large crops for you.​

​

The Lord will open the storehouses of the skies where he keeps the rain, and he will send rain on your land at just the right times. He will make you successful in everything you do. You will have plenty of money to lend to other nations, but you won't need to borrow any yourself.​

​

Obey the laws and teachings that I'm giving you today, and the Lord your God will make Israel a leader among the nations, and not a follower. Israel will be wealthy and powerful, not poor and weak. 14 But you must not reject any of his laws and teachings or worship other gods.​

Yes, I agree. However, mention of the afterlife is present in the Hebrew Scriptures. For instance, Gabriel tells Daniel, "But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age.” Daniel 12:13

And if I think about it, the promise you quoted from Deuteronomy invites the reader to speculate as to why God's promises are multigenerational. God makes promises to some people who will never see their fulfillment in their lifetime. Only those who love God and put trust in his faithfulness will find such prophecies to be interesting. For instance, God promised Abraham that he would be the father of many nations. And though God didn't fulfill that promise in Abraham's lifetime, Abraham believed God anyway.

 

[Wrangler]

Wasn't God interested in all those centuries in changing the sinful nature of the Hebrews?

No. Patiently allowed centuries for us to proof to ourselves that we cannot meet the divine standard on our own power.

The Old Testament is full of references to righteous, God-fearing people. How did these people achieve that status?

Good question. Before Christ, the Holy Spirit came to people only sporadically.

For sure, it does not happen by adopting a doctrinal view.
When you say that you accept Jesus as your personal savior, it means something deeper. What is it?

The saving doctrine is found in Romans 10:9. Coupled and more important than Savior is humbly accepting the Lordship over your life of God’s son.

Everyone wants to be saved. Few are willing to give up control over their life. Required is deep humility.

 

[Wrangler]

I don't believe in Original Sin.

What do you make of Romans 5:12?

When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.

 

[Wrangler]

Did it need to sacrifice a lamb and sprinkle its blood over their won door in order to get God’s forgiveness?

No. The blood protected them from Gods Judgment.

Not all sacrifice is for sin forgiveness.

 

[Wrangler]

Instead, we must come to God as He taught

No one goes to God but through Christ.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

No. The blood protected them from Gods Judgment.

Then, how did God forgive the sins of the Hebrews living in Egypt?
How did God forgive the sins of their Egyptian neighbors?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

No one goes to God but through Christ.

Going to God through Christ means going to God the way Christ taught us to go.

It is impossible to claim "I go to God through Christ" if we are not following Christ teachings on the matter.
And his teachings are clear:

• Be merciful with your brother, so that you can expect mercy from God.
• Don't come with arrogance and self-righteousness. Be humble and recognize your impotence.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Good question. Before Christ, the Holy Spirit came to people only sporadically.

It is indeed a good question, my brother, since the Old Testament takes for granted that righteous people existed. :)

I don't know what you mean by saying that the Holy Spirit came "only sporadically". Are you saying that after the cross there were more righteous people per 1000 inhabitants than before the cross?
To my knowledge, we can't make any statistical estimation of the frequency of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the life of people before vs. after the cross.

In any case, whatever you mean by "sporadically", you are accepting that the Holy Spirit could make a person righteous, without the need of Jesus having shed his blood on the cross. This proves that blood shedding is not mandatory for the grace of God to forgive and transform.

 

[Wrangler]

Then, how did God forgive the sins of the Hebrews living in Egypt?
How did God forgive the sins of their Egyptian neighbors?

Did he forgive them? What verse says that?

Not to humble to suppose you can figure out how the almighty achieves his will, is it?

 

[Wrangler]

I don't know what you mean by saying that the Holy Spirit came "only sporadically". Are you saying that after the cross there were more righteous people per 1000 inhabitants than before the cross?

Yes. There were also more righteous people per 1000 after the flood than before.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

No. Patiently allowed centuries for us to proof to ourselves that we cannot meet the divine standard on our own power.

Wrangler:

People already knew for centuries before Christ that they could not meet the divine standard with their own power.
Righteous people already existed, and no person can be declared righteous without the grace of God.

Therefore, God didn't need to await centuries to make us aware of that. The essence of salvation has always been known.

 

[Wrangler]

To my knowledge, we can't make any statistical assumption of the frequency of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the life of people before vs. after the cross.

Glad I could help!

For instance, Saul once had the Spirit of the Lord come to him and he prophecied. This righteousness did not last and his reign lost God’s favor.

There is no such example among the Apostles, including Judas, who did not rely on the lord but himself.