Apologetics about Substitutionary Atonement

[Pancho Frijoles]

So, what about Isaiah 53 specifically? I'll write about it at some point during the weekend, my friends.
So far, we have seen that

• Isaiah knew God didn't need blood to forgive, because he himself had been forgiven with a totally different symbol: fire.
• Jesus did not choose Isaiah 53 to state his mission, but Isaiah 61. His mission was to preach, heal, deliver.

 

[GTW27]

Who has believed what we have heard? And to whom has the arm of The Lord been revealed? For He grew up before Him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; He had no form or comeliness that we would look at Him, and no beauty that we would desire Him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.
Surely He has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions,and He was bruised for our iniquities; upon Him was the chastisement that made us whole, with His stripes we are healed. And we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and The Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth; like a Lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so He opened not His mouth. By oppression and judgement He was taken away; and as for His generation, who considered that He was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of My people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man at His death, although He had done no violence, and there was no deceit in His mouth.
Yet it was the will of The Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief; when He makes Himself an offering for sin, He shall see His offspring, He shall prolong his days; and the will of The Lord shall prosper in His Hand; He shall see the fruit of the travail of His soul and be satisfied; By His knowledge shall the righteous One, My servant, made many to be accounted righteous; and He shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong; because He poured out His soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors, yet He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I had never thought in the anti-thesis of the Good News, and yours is, again, a very enlightening post.
Now, it seems to me that, through all the Old Testament, Israelites didn't seem to be worried by "the eternal consequence of sin", (bad news #4). God's prophets, in turn, did not bother about preaching "eternal life".

In fact, the term "eternal life" does not appear throughout the Old Testament. It is exclusive of the NT.
Was God not interested in promising eternal life to Israelites?

I think this is worthy of some thinking, because we are not talking here about a secondary doctrine or knowledge, but about an element that you consider a main aspect of the "Bad News" (and in consequence, a main aspect that Good News will address).

Although the term "eternal life" isn't found in the OT, I wonder if the concept is. The idea of resurrection is also found in the OT, and I wonder where Mary and Martha learned about it. (Review the account of the raising of Lazarus.)

My video.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Dear GTW7 and friends all:

It is now time to examine Isaiah 53, to discover if God requires blood substitutionary atonement in able to forgive sins.

First of all, it is important to recognize that Israel (Jacob) is the God's Servant mentioned in chapter 53, This is an indisputable truth, because in the preceding chapters, God repeatedly calls Israel (Jacob) "My Servant".

41:8,9
But you, Israel, are My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, My friend. You whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called from its remotest parts, and said to you, “You are My servant; I have chosen you and have not rejected you.”

43:1,10
But now, thus says the Lord ho created you, O Jacob, and He who formed you, O Israel:
Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name; you are Mine....
You are My witnesses, says the Lord, and My servant whom I have chosen that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He.

44:1
Yet now listen, O Jacob, My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen. Thus says the Lord who made you, and formed you from the womb, who will help you: Do not fear, O Jacob, My servant, and you, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.

44:21
Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are My servant; I have formed you; you are My servant; O Israel, you shall not be forgotten by Me.

45:4
For Jacob My servant’s sake and Israel My chosen one, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.

48:12
...say, “The Lord has redeemed His servant Jacob.”

49:3
He said to me, “You are My servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”

In second place, we need to discover who is speaking in Isaiah 53. Who is saying things about "The Servant" (Israel). To know that, let's start with the opening verse, which is not 53:1 but 52:15 (the immediately preceding verse).

My servant will make nations worthy to worship me; kings will be silent as they bow in wonder.​

They will see and think about things they have never seen or thought about before.​

"Has anyone believed us or seen the mighty power of the Lord in action?​

Like a young plant or a root that sprouts in dry ground, the servant grew up obeying the Lord.​

He wasn't some handsome king. Nothing about the way he looked made him attractive to us.​

He was hated and rejected; his life was filled with sorrow and terrible suffering.​

No one wanted to look at him. We despised him and said, “He is a nobody!... etc."​

​

The nations, the Gentile nations, are speaking about the success of Israel, that tiny, despised, insignificant nation which suffered so much.
The nations, the Gentile nations, will come to recognize that Israel served God's purpose for them.
I'll continue on next post.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Let's come to the verses that many Christians use to support the need of Jesus' blood as a substitutionary atonement:

Surely he has borne our grief and carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities;
the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his stripes we are healed.

What the nations and kings of these nations are saying here, is that they understand that Israel suffered and endured great pain throughout history so that they could know God, and be healed from their sins. Jesus said that "salvation comes from Jews".
It is important to note that verse 11 says that God's Servant (Israel) would bear the iniquities of nations through "his knowledge". Which knowledge? Israel had a knowledge of God other people didn't have as developed.

By his knowledge My righteous servant shall justify the many, for he shall bear their iniquities.

 

[GTW27]

Who has believed what we have heard? And to whom has the arm of The Lord been revealed? For He grew up before Him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; He had no form or comeliness that we would look at Him, and no beauty that we would desire Him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.
Surely He has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions,and He was bruised for our iniquities; upon Him was the chastisement that made us whole, with His stripes we are healed. And we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and The Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth; like a Lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so He opened not His mouth. By oppression and judgement He was taken away; and as for His generation, who considered that He was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of My people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man at His death, although He had done no violence, and there was no deceit in His mouth.
Yet it was the will of The Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief; when He makes Himself an offering for sin, He shall see His offspring, He shall prolong his days; and the will of The Lord shall prosper in His Hand; He shall see the fruit of the travail of His soul and be satisfied; By His knowledge shall the righteous One, My servant, made many to be accounted righteous; and He shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong; because He poured out His soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors, yet He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Although the term "eternal life" isn't found in the OT, I wonder if the concept is. The idea of resurrection is also found in the OT, and I wonder where Mary and Martha learned about it. (Review the account of the raising of Lazarus.)

My video.

Hello CadyandZoe

What happens in the afterlife is s topic rarely, very rarely mentioned in the Tanakh.
The promises God made to Israel were specific, tangible blessings to be enjoyed in this earth… in this life.
Let’s read them in Deuteronomy 28:1-13( Contemporary English Version)

Today I am giving you the laws and teachings of the Lord your God. Always obey them, and the Lord will make Israel the most famous and important nation on earth, and he will bless you in many ways.​

​

The Lord will make your businesses and your farms successful.​

You will have many children. You will harvest large crops, and your herds of cattle and flocks of sheep and goats will produce many young.​

You will have plenty of bread to eat.​

The Lord will make you successful in your daily work.​

The Lord will help you defeat your enemies and make them scatter in all directions.​

The Lord your God is giving you the land, and he will make sure you are successful in everything you do. Your harvests will be so large that your storehouses will be full.​

​

If you follow and obey the Lord, he will make you his own special people, just as he promised. Then everyone on earth will know that you belong to the Lord, and they will be afraid of you.​

The Lord will give you a lot of children and make sure that your animals give birth to many young. The Lordpromised your ancestors that this land would be yours, and he will make it produce large crops for you.​

​

The Lord will open the storehouses of the skies where he keeps the rain, and he will send rain on your land at just the right times. He will make you successful in everything you do. You will have plenty of money to lend to other nations, but you won't need to borrow any yourself.​

​

Obey the laws and teachings that I'm giving you today, and the Lord your God will make Israel a leader among the nations, and not a follower. Israel will be wealthy and powerful, not poor and weak. 14 But you must not reject any of his laws and teachings or worship other gods.​

 

[GTW27]

Who has believed what we have heard? And to whom has the arm of The Lord been revealed? For He grew up before Him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; He had no form or comeliness that we would look at Him, and no beauty that we would desire Him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.
Surely He has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions,and He was bruised for our iniquities; upon Him was the chastisement that made us whole, with His stripes we are healed. And we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and The Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth; like a Lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so He opened not His mouth. By oppression and judgement He was taken away; and as for His generation, who considered that He was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of My people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man at His death, although He had done no violence, and there was no deceit in His mouth.
Yet it was the will of The Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief; when He makes Himself an offering for sin, He shall see His offspring, He shall prolong his days; and the will of The Lord shall prosper in His Hand; He shall see the fruit of the travail of His soul and be satisfied; By His knowledge shall the righteous One, My servant, made many to be accounted righteous; and He shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong; because He poured out His soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors, yet He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man at His death,
When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea , named Joseph,who was also a disciple of Jesus. He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Matthew 27 verse 57-58

Beautiful words in Isaiah 53 don't you think Pancho. See how they flow like a river. Never doubt the words of a true prophet of The Lord Pancho as they will come to pass.

 

[ElieG12]

Paul was not the "inventor" of the atonement doctrine.

John talked about it:

1 John 2:2 And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s.
... 4:10 The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins.

Peter talked about it:

1 Pet. 1:18 For you know that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, that you were set free from your futile way of life handed down to you by your forefathers. 19 But it was with precious blood, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, that of Christ.
... 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his own body on the stake, so that we might die to sins and live to righteousness. And “by his wounds you were healed.”

But most importantly, Jesus himself taught it:

Matt. 20:28 Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

But most importantly, Jesus himself taught it:

Matt. 20:28 Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.

Who/what keeps man as slave, so that somebody has to pay a ransom to free him?
Is it God? Does God keep us as his prisoners? Did Christ pay a ransom to His Father becoming a salve of his Fahter (taking our place)? Of course not.

It is our sins, our flesh who kept us slave.
Jesus came into the world, lived and died to teach the truth, and it is this truth which set us free from the prison of sin..
“You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32)
The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life. [John 6:63)
For this reason I was born, and for this reason I came into the world, to bear witness to the truth. (John 18:37)

So, the verse you’ve quoted has nothing to do with a blood substitutionary atonement.
It has to do with Jesus mission, which is to bear witness of the truth that set us free.
The ransom is his Message, his Truth… a Message that he lived for and died for.
No substitution.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Peter talked about it:

1 Pet. 1:18 For you know that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, that you were set free from your futile way of life handed down to you by your forefathers. 19 But it was with precious blood, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, that of Christ.
... 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his own body on the stake, so that we might die to sins and live to righteousness. And “by his wounds you were healed.”

Exactly. It is clear in 1 Pet 2:24
As I have said, my brother, Christ’s life and sacrifice on the cross had one purpose: to transform us into persons who abandon our bad ways (“die to sins”) and do good deeds (“live to righteousness”).
This happens when we honor his life and death by following his teachings, his words, his example.
There is no blood substitutionary atonement here as a requisite for being forgiven.

 

[ElieG12]

I don't see how anything you say is any refutation that Peter, John and Jesus himself, taught about the atonement.

It isn't true what you said that Paul invented that doctrine as a didactic something.

Why are you lying?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I don't see how anything you say is any refutation that Peter, John and Jesus himself, taught about the atonement.

It isn't true what you said that Paul invented that doctrine as a didactic something.

Why are you lying?

Hi ElieG12

I have been addressing one specific view of atonement : the belief that, in order to forgive a sin, God makes a requirement: that the sinner believe that Jesus took his place, receiving the punishment the sinner deserved.
That belief I find at odds with the abundant evidence in Scripture that God forgives because He is merciful and compassionate towards the person who comes to Him with a broken, contrite heart.

Of course the Bible refers metaphorically, symbolically, to the atonement both in the Old and New Testament.
In the OT in association with the sacrifice of animals, and in the NT with the sacrifice of Jesus.
But blood has never been the “price” of anything. The mercy of God has never been on sale.

That’s why God can forgive Dr Steinmann,, the Jewish dentist of the scenario I brought to the thread.
Please refer to that story. I would like to know your opinion.

 

[Wrangler]

Science and reason, however, reveal that all plants and animals die. All bacteria die. And none of them has committed a sin.

indeed, such theology cannot explain why babies, who haven't sinned, die all the same.

These posts and others by @CadyandZoe show a complete lack of understanding of Original Sin.

It did not merely bring death to 2 individuals who ate fruit; it brought pain, suffering and death into the natural and physical world - for all life from that point on.

This past week I was at the Ark Encounter and Creation Museum in Kentucky. It points out there are 2 types of science, observational and historical. One cannot use one type of science to grasp the other. Observational science presumes incorrectly that processes today also occurred in the past and at the same rate.

For instance, the Law of Heating and Cooling shows that over time a body asymptotically approaches equilibrium, I.e., the rate is not the same over time.

 

[Wrangler]

I have been addressing one specific view of atonement : the belief that, in order to forgive a sin, God makes a requirement: that the sinner believe that Jesus took his place, receiving the punishment the sinner deserved.
That belief I find at odds with the abundant evidence in Scripture that God forgives because He is merciful and compassionate towards the person who comes to Him with a broken, contrite heart.

Then you are not understanding Scripture at all. Original Sin reveals our sin nature. For centuries, the Hebrews practiced ritual sacrifice for the ongoing sins of the people.

The only purpose for Christs ministry and death was to stop this cycle by redeeming our sin nature, replacing it with divine nature. Although this is a free gift, we have to accept it.

Proof the Hebrews obeyed was to literally put lamb’s blood on the frame of the doorway so that the Angel of Death would pass over them. Do you think the lamb gave up this blood without sacrifice?

 

[ElieG12]

Hi ElieG12

I have been addressing one specific view of atonement : the belief that, in order to forgive a sin, God makes a requirement: that the sinner believe that Jesus took his place, receiving the punishment the sinner deserved.
That belief I find at odds with the abundant evidence in Scripture that God forgives because He is merciful and compassionate towards the person who comes to Him with a broken, contrite heart.

Of course the Bible refers metaphorically, symbolically, to the atonement both in the Old and New Testament.
In the OT in association with the sacrifice of animals, and in the NT with the sacrifice of Jesus.
But blood has never been the “price” of anything. The mercy of God has never been on sale.

That’s why God can forgive Dr Steinmann,, the Jewish dentist of the scenario I brought to the thread.
Please refer to that story. I would like to know your opinion.

Well, that you're negating is what Peter, John and Jesus taught.

Jesus is called "the Lamb of God" for a reason.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Then you are not understanding Scripture at all. Original Sin reveals our sin nature. For centuries, the Hebrews practiced ritual sacrifice for the ongoing sins of the people.

Wasn't God interested in all those centuries in changing the sinful nature of the Hebrews?
The Old Testament is full of references to righteous, God-fearing people. How did these people achieve that status?

The only purpose for Christs ministry and death was to stop this cycle by redeeming our sin nature, replacing it with divine nature.

I agree. The point is how is this achieved? How does our sinful nature is replaced with divine nature?
For sure, it does not happen by adopting a doctrinal view.
When you say that you accept Jesus as your personal savior, it means something deeper. What is it?

Proof the Hebrews obeyed was to literally put lamb’s blood on the frame of the doorway so that the Angel of Death would pass over them. Do you think the lamb gave up this blood without sacrifice?

The lamb of the Passover needed to be sacrificed, for sure.
Now, did the blood that a Hebrew sprinkled over his door, give his family forgiveness of sins?
And what about the Egyptian family living next door? Did it need to sacrifice a lamb and sprinkle its blood over their won door in order to get God’s forgiveness?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Well, that you're negating is what Peter, John and Jesus taught.

Jesus is called "the Lamb of God" for a reason.

Certainly. He has made unnecessary to follow the ritual of lamb sacrifice. He has given it a spiritual meaning. God has to be worshiped in spirit and in truth. No need to go to the Temple, or to a mountain in Samaria, or to any specific place.
Instead, we must come to God as He taught us in the parable of the Prodigal Son, the King who forgave the debt of his subject, and the tax collector and the Pharisee. We must come to God as he taught us in the Lord's Prayer. That's what Jesus taught over and over and over.

Please consider this:
If Jesus had been sent to die, as his primary and most important mission on earth, why didn't he die earlier, without having to preach, to heal, to set an example?
The soldiers who looked for a baby in Bethlehem, under the orders of King Herod, could have found the baby Jesus and killed him. Would that have accomplished his mission?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

By His knowledge shall the righteous One, My servant, made many to be accounted righteous; and He shall bear their iniquities.

Israel, the servant of God, shared its knowledge of God so that other nations be accounted as righteous. They suffered more than any other nation. There were despised more than any other nation. This is the primary meaning of the verse when it was written.
Then, centuries later, we apply it also to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ, the servant of God, shared his knowledge of God so that people could be accounted as righteous. It is his Message, his Gospel (or more specifically, living that Gospel) which makes God account us as righteous.

 

[ElieG12]

There's a real meaning, not spiritual. Jesus was really murdered because he had to be the ultimate sacrifice on behalf of humans.

We were out of chance to be again part of the perfect family of God. Jesus gave us that chance back.

Psal. 49:7  None of them can ever redeem a brother
Or give to God a ransom for him,
8 (The ransom price for their life is so precious
That it is always beyond their reach);
9 That he should live forever and not see the pit.

That is not metaphorical nor symbolical. The family of God is required to be clean and perfect, because nothing defective is from God. Our original parents violated a perfect law and transmitted defect to their descendants. For a time the Creator allowed the blood of animals as payment to bring us closer to Him, but animal sacrifices were not completely effective, so a corresponding payment had to be made on behalf of all of humanity.

Jesus was that payment, and so we can legally draw closer to God while things are set right and human perfection is restored. And there you are:

John 3:16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

Bahais want to see everything metaphorical, because they don't accept the Scriptures or the sacrifice of Jesus, and they think human problems will be solve by humans, not by God's kingdom.