Apokatastasis in the early church

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Lambano

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I especially like this one. What does "age-during" mean?
Like I said before (in case anybody missed it in all the ruckus), in Jewish thought, there are only two ages: This age and the age to come. The age to come has no end; there is no subsequent age after that. The concept of aions cycling through over and over comes from Stoic philosophy. The last time I checked, Jesus was Jewish, and the term He used was "the age to come".

For that reason, I regard expressions like "age-during", "ages of ages", and "the teleos of the ages" to be colloquialisms used in the Greek world of the time. Though I suppose one could regard their use in the Bible as an endorsement of certain aspects of Stoic philosophy.
 
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St. SteVen

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Like I said before (in case anybody missed it in all the ruckus), in Jewish thought, there are only two ages: This age and the age to come. The age to come has no end; there is no subsequent age after that. The concept of aions cycling through over and over comes from Stoic philosophy. The last time I checked, Jesus was Jewish, and the term He used was "the age to come".

For that reason, I regard expressions like "age-during", "ages of ages", and "the teleos of the ages" to be colloquialisms used in the Greek world of the time. Though I suppose one could regard their use in the Bible as an endorsement of certain aspects of Stoic philosophy.
Very informative, yet again, thanks.

Question: How many ages are contained in the current age?

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Wick Stick

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I don't take the term "IT IS WRITTEN" as an indication that something is prophetic.
It's an appeal to authority.

Do you think Peter and the apostles appealed to David's writings as authoritative because they are inspired, or because they are written by David, a known prophet?

I know how the modern church would answer... we have made inspiration and authority virtually synonymous. But I don't think that Peter would agree... or Paul... or Jesus for that matter.

It looks to me like the apostles gave a strong preference to the Prophets. When I did that study of places where the NT quotes the OT, that was the takeaway. The NT authors mostly ignore the books of history (Joshua - Job), but they are very keen on Isaiah, Jeremiah, and the minor prophets, as well as Psalms and Deuteronomy.

Pretty sure you won't let me off that easily. - LOL
I might! I mostly agree with you! A good general rule of thumb in interpreting the Bible is to let it explain itself. Does the passage claim to be inspired? Believe it. Is it framed as a history? Read it as a history.

I guess what I'd like to do is re-frame the argument a little, and talk about the authority of Scripture in terms of more than just inspiration. It really does appear to me that some books were regarded as more authoritative than others by the Lord and his disciples.
 
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Wick Stick

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Like I said before (in case anybody missed it in all the ruckus), in Jewish thought, there are only two ages: This age and the age to come. The age to come has no end; there is no subsequent age after that. The concept of aions cycling through over and over comes from Stoic philosophy. The last time I checked, Jesus was Jewish, and the term He used was "the age to come".
Stoicism, you say? I'm a little skeptical... :Laughingoutloud:

Several Jewish writings contain enumerations of "weeks" of generations. Those "weeks" answer pretty well to the idea of ages, though they don't cycle eternally. For instance, the Book of Enoch gives us 10 "weeks" - the first 9 contain seven generations each, and the last one lasts forever. The Book of Jubilees uses the same concept as a framework to re-tell all of Jewish history.

Obviously, those aren't in the Bible, but they definitely fall into the category of Jewish thought.

For that reason, I regard expressions like "age-during", "ages of ages", and "the teleos of the ages" to be colloquialisms used in the Greek world of the time. Though I suppose one could regard their use in the Bible as an endorsement of certain aspects of Stoic philosophy.
Stoicism seems to agree with the Bible on a lot of things, especially in their condemnation of Epicureanism.
 
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Hobie

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There may be some question about who these church fathers were, and their credibility.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Apostolic Fathers were Christian theologians who lived in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD, who are believed to have personally known some of the Twelve Apostles, or to have been significantly influenced by them.[5] Their writings, though popular in Early Christianity, were ultimately not included in the canon of the New Testament once it reached its final form. Many of the writings derive from the same time period and geographical location as other works of early Christian literature that did come to be part of the New Testament, and some of the writings found among the Apostolic Fathers' seem to have been just as highly regarded as some of the writings that became the New Testament.

Clement of Alexandria​

Main article: Clement of Alexandria

Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215) was the first member of the church of Alexandria whose writings have survived, and was one of its most distinguished teachers. He saw wisdom in Greek philosophy and sought to harmonize it with Christian doctrine. Clement opposed Gnosticism, and yet used some of its terminology; for instance, he valued gnosis that with communion for all people could be held by common Christians. He developed a Christian Platonism[6] and has been described by scholars as "the founder of what was to become the great tradition of Christian philosophical theology."[19] Due to his teaching on salvation and divine judgement in passages such as Paedagogus 1.8 and Stromata 7.2, Clement is often regarded as one of the first Christian universalists.[20] Like Origen, he arose from the Catechetical School of Alexandria and was well-versed in pagan and biblical literature.[6]


Origen of Alexandria​

Main article: Origen

Origen, or Origen Adamantius (c. 185 – c. 254) was a scholar and theologian. According to tradition, he was an Egyptian[21] who taught in Alexandria, reviving the Catechetical School where Clement had taught. The patriarch of Alexandria at first supported Origen but later expelled him for being ordained without the patriarch's permission. He relocated to Caesarea Maritima and died there[22] after being tortured during a persecution. He later became a controversial figure and some of his writings were condemned as heretical. Using his knowledge of Hebrew, he produced a corrected Septuagint.[6] He wrote commentaries on all the books of the Bible.[6] In Peri Archon (First Principles), he articulated a systematic philosophical exposition of Christian doctrine.[6] He at times employed an allegorical hermeneutic in his interpretation of the Old Testament, and was partly influenced by Stoic, Neo-Pythagorean, and Platonist thought.[6] Like Plotinus, he has been thought to believe that the soul passes through successive stages before incarnation as a human and after death, eventually reaching God.[6] However, more recent scholarship has concluded that Origen actually denied the preexistence of disembodied souls, and simply taught the preexistence of individuals' logoi in the mind of God.[23] Yet Origen did suggest, based on 1 Corinthians 15:22-28, that all creatures, possibly including even the fallen angels, will eventually be restored and reunited to God when evil is finally eradicated. For Origen, God was the First Principle, and Christ, the Logos[6] through whom salvation is accomplished. Origen's various writings were interpreted by some to imply a hierarchical structure in the Trinity, the temporality of matter, "the fabulous preexistence of souls", and "the monstrous restoration which follows from it." These alleged "Origenist errors" were declared anathema by a council in 553, three centuries after Origen had died in the peace of the church.[24][25]
You do know both had Gnostic teachings not just 'errors'.
 

St. SteVen

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I guess what I'd like to do is re-frame the argument a little, and talk about the authority of Scripture in terms of more than just inspiration. It really does appear to me that some books were regarded as more authoritative than others by the Lord and his disciples.
Yes, please proceed. Thanks.

I seem to remember that some books were quoted that were not canonical.
Would that make them authoritative, or not?

What determines whether a book was considered authoritative?
Those who collected the canons had a view on this.
But WAY after the fact. (you are referencing)

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Wick Stick

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I seem to remember that some books were quoted that were not canonical.
Would that make them authoritative, or not?
It depends on context. Are they being appealed to as authoritative? When it says "IT IS WRITTEN" the answer is probably yes, because the word written in that formula is the same as the word Scripture when we peek under the hood into Greek. IT IS SCRIPTURE...

Jude 1 cites The Book of Enoch in a way that looks authoritative - "Enoch prophesied, saying" - but isn't the usual formula mentioned above. Enoch seems to be the weird outside case, though... a genuinely lost book that the later church simply didn't even consider for canonization because they just didn't even have a copy.

What determines whether a book was considered authoritative?
I need someone who is authoritative to treat it that way. If Jesus or Peter or Paul calls something Scripture, that'll do it.
 
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St. SteVen

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Jude 1 cites The Book of Enoch in a way that looks authoritative - "Enoch prophesied, saying" - but isn't the usual formula mentioned above. Enoch seems to be the weird outside case, though... a genuinely lost book that the later church simply didn't even consider for canonization because they just didn't even have a copy.
I hope it wasn't a library book.
Imagine the fine they have racked up by now.

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Ronald David Bruno

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I especially like this one. What does "age-during" mean?
Aionion, aionios have variable meanings When applied to our physical realm, that is temporal and will pass away, it means age-during or age-lasting, ages, lifetime, generation. When applied to God, His domain and our salvation, it means eternal. Sometimes you'll see everlasting and eternal used interchangeably, but there is a difference. In John 3:16 most translations use eternal, but KJV uses everlasting, which YLT breaks that down to age-during.
The truth is, we have already entered into eternal life, we don't have to wait for it. So it happened during this life/age.

I think the translators of the KJV knew that this word, aionion, had variable meanings in this very important verse where this word is used twice:
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. KJV
*age-during used in YLT.

Why did I bring this up? Because this word is used to describe mountains in scripture, " everlasting mountains"( Hab. 3:6) Mountains are not eternal, they are temporal, so age-during or age-lasting is obviously different. And any other time this term is used to describe temporal things it means it has a temporal time period. Hades is part of the underworld and the earth will someday be destroyed along with Hades so it is not eternal.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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Now there's something we can agree on.
That was discernment on your part ... I think? I posted 29 versions of John 3:16, one of the most popular and cherished a scriptures. My point was that they all pretty much said the same thing, they gave you God's truth. Your comment puzzles me though. You agree that there is truth in that scripture. Yet I am not sure you understand what it means?
Our Heavenly Father sacrificed His Son for "whoever (anyone who in their lifetime) believes in Him will not perish but will have eternal life".
How can a Universalist agree with that truth? Those who believe are saved for eternity and those who do not, perish/die.
 
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St. SteVen

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That was discernment on your part ... I think? I posted 29 versions of John 3:16, one of the most popular and cherished a scriptures. My point was that they all pretty much said the same thing, they gave you God's truth. Your comment puzzles me though. You agree that there is truth in that scripture. Yet I am not sure you understand what it means?
Our Heavenly Father sacrificed His Son for "whoever (anyone who in their lifetime) believes in Him will not perish but will have eternal life".
How can a Universalist agree with that truth? Those who believe are saved for eternity and those who do not, perish/die.
"How can a Universalist agree with that truth?"
That's a great question, thanks.

Take another look at the parenthetical statement you added to the verse. "(anyone who in their lifetime)"
Obviously, that is not part of the scripture. You added it. (to clarify your reading of it)

If you remove the presumption, what could the verse mean? (in the broadest sense)

You also wrote: "Those who believe are saved for eternity and those who do not, perish/die."
If this means God will give everyone the choice, then obviously God needs to give everyone the choice.
I'm trying to explain this in terms you can grasp. (based on your presumptions)

Countless billions have gone into the afterlife with no knowledge of this whatsoever.
When will they have the opportunity (from your perspective) to choose?

Four things to consider:
1) When does this event described in the scripture below take place?
2) Why would anyone in heaven need to "acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord"?
3) What does the term "under the earth" mean? (the realm of the dead)
4) Will anyone fail to "choose"? (from your perspective)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

/ @Hillsage
 

Ronald David Bruno

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You also wrote: "Those who believe are saved for eternity and those who do not, perish/die."
If this means God will give everyone the choice, then obviously God needs to give everyone the choice.
Given humans do not really know who will be saved in the future or not, so with that perspective, this scripture is just a statement of fact, an idenity marker of who will have eternal life and who will not.
If you are given the gift, then you will be in that group, the elect.
It appears that salvation is open to all, but it is not -- only His sheep hear His voice. Jesus made that clear to the Pharisees and unbelievers during His ministry, they did not believe because they weren't His sheep. Many branches were cut off so that we could be grafted into the VINE.
In God's perspective it is not a choice for man, He chooses those whom He will save and those whom He will not. We are His "elect". Let me be clear, I am not a Calvinist, but predestination is scriptural.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."
Ephesians 1:3-6

"For whom He foreknew, He also
predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." Romans 8:29-30

"For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. "Romans 9:15



"What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,"
Romans 9:22-23


"In Him also we have obtained an inheritance,
being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will," Ephesians 1:11


But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed
it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Romans 9:20-21




Countless billions have gone into the afterlife with no knowledge of this whatsoever.
When will they have the opportunity (from your perspective) to choose?
Romans 1:19-20 makes it clear that man is without excuse.
"because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse."
Four things to consider:
1) When does this event described in the scripture below take place?
2) Why would anyone in heaven need to "acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord"?
3) What does the term "under the earth" mean? (the realm of the dead)
4) Will anyone fail to "choose"? (from your perspective)
Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
1. After the Great Tribulation, when Jesus returns and destroys all the unbelievers. Hence only Chrisrians will be left on earth to bow the knee!!
2. Worship and praise goes on in heaven too ... or have you not figured that out?
3. At the time this is written and even now, the dead "in Christ" were buried under the earth. They will be resurrected to life joined with their spirits, given a new resurrected, eternal body ( multi-dimensional) like Jesus has.
4. Again God choose, therefore the elect do not fail, God sees to it that His purpose and will be done. We are given the gift of life, enabled to seek God, given spiritual sight and persuaded by the Word and also by His inner calling, His Spirit, Who confirms His presense and guides us to all truth.
All who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slaughtered. Rev. 13:8
 

St. SteVen

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Given humans do not really know who will be saved in the future or not, so with that perspective, this scripture is just a statement of fact, an idenity marker of who will have eternal life and who will not.
If you are given the gift, then you will be in that group, the elect.
That means God predestined one group to life and the rest to destruction.
How would you feel about that if God had predestined you to destruction?

It appears that salvation is open to all, but it is not -- only His sheep hear His voice. Jesus made that clear to the Pharisees and unbelievers during His ministry, they did not believe because they weren't His sheep. Many branches were cut off so that we could be grafted into the VINE.
In God's perspective it is not a choice for man, He chooses those whom He will save and those whom He will not. We are His "elect". Let me be clear, I am not a Calvinist, but predestination is scriptural.
There it is in gory detail. Thanks.
Disgusting.

/
 

St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
Countless billions have gone into the afterlife with no knowledge of this whatsoever.
When will they have the opportunity (from your perspective) to choose?
Romans 1:19-20 makes it clear that man is without excuse.
"because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse."
Are you claiming that salvation is a result of the acknowledgement of the creator in creation?
That scripture won't support anything beyond that. Not about salvation at all.

/
 

St. SteVen

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Four things to consider:
1) When does this event described in the scripture below take place?
2) Why would anyone in heaven need to "acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord"?
3) What does the term "under the earth" mean? (the realm of the dead)
4) Will anyone fail to "choose"? (from your perspective)
Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
1. After the Great Tribulation, when Jesus returns and destroys all the unbelievers. Hence only Chrisrians will be left on earth to bow the knee!!
2. Worship and praise goes on in heaven too ... or have you not figured that out?
3. At the time this is written and even now, the dead "in Christ" were buried under the earth. They will be resurrected to life joined with their spirits, given a new resurrected, eternal body ( multi-dimensional) like Jesus has.
4. Again God choose, therefore the elect do not fail, God sees to it that His purpose and will be done. We are given the gift of life, enabled to seek God, given spiritual sight and persuaded by the Word and also by His inner calling, His Spirit, Who confirms His presense and guides us to all truth.
All who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slaughtered. Rev. 13:8
1. Jesus will destroy those who acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord?
2. Right. Glad you got one correct. - LOL
3. Buried under the earth? Where was Jesus for three days after his crucifixion?
4. Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

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Ronald David Bruno

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That means God predestined one group to life and the rest to destruction.
How would you feel about that if God had predestined you to destruction?
I wouldn't know, I'd be blind. Dying and then being ushered into Hades would be a shock. But you would immediately know why you were there as the Rich man did in Luke 16.
Are you claiming that salvation is a result of the acknowledgement of the creator in creation?
That scripture won't support anything beyond that. Not about salvation at all.
Romans 1 discusses the state of fallen man.
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

We are saved by Grace through faith.
>>> Vs. 17 " ...the just shall love by faith".
Jesus sacrifice is imputed to those who lived by faith (who never heard of the Savior, a Messiah long before Christ was born.
Job is supposed be the oldest book on the Bible and he knew of His Redeemer.
For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth; Job 19:25
OT saints were not the only people who knew of a Messiah/Savior. But scholars would even claim Adam and Eve knew (Gen.3:15) and so this knowledge of God and a Savior was passed down through the generations. Obviously Noah's family repopulated the earth and they lived by faith and so there was no secret that there was a Creator and no excuse.


Jesus will destroy those who acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord?
Wow, you don't get the concepts of life and death, salvation and judgment.
Buried under the earth? Where was Jesus for three days after his crucifixion?
His body was in a tomb, but His spirit elsewhere.
Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below
Absolutely, whosoever believes is given eternal life the rest perish.
 

St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
Buried under the earth? Where was Jesus for three days after his crucifixion?
His body was in a tomb, but His spirit elsewhere.
Where was he?

Matthew 12:40 NIV
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish,
so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

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Ronald David Bruno

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St. SteVen said:
Buried under the earth? Where was Jesus for three days after his crucifixion?

Where was he?

Matthew 12:40 NIV
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish,
so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

/
Right, there were two locations, Hades and Paradise. Hades was yet divided into another deeper location, Tartarus, reserved for fallen angels were separate from ungodly souls.
>> Many don't realize that Jonah died quickly - he wasn't kept alive for three days! Otherwise, his experience would not be compared to Jesus' death.
Jonah 2: 1-7 > describes Jonah crying out from the "depth of Sheol". The belly of the whale was not a grave. No, Jonah died and cried out to God. "Water encompassed me to the point of death ... I descended to the roots of the mountains, the earth with its bars (gates) was around me forever, but You have brought up my life FROM THE PIT, O LORD my God."
So Jonah saw the Gates of Hades - but God brought him back to life.


The story of Jonah is perplexing. How did he convince a corrupt ruler and 150k godless people of Ninevah to repent? He just strolled into town -- a nobody and told them God was going to destroy them in 40 days. Why did the ruler heed his warning? Maybe he sent out word to that ship to Tarshish to verify his story? That would have taken some time. Still, they believed him, fear and panick spread -- just like that?
The Israelites stoned their prophets and had a hard time accepting what they had to say. These were Gentiles, worldly, ungodly Assyrians who did not ever receive commandments or messages from God from a foreign so-called Prophet. Prophets had to prove themselves to the Israelites. This is one of the reasons why people had faith and believed: they witnessed miracles and prophesied events unfold exactly how the Prophet said they would. But the Bible is silent about how Jonah convinced them, validated himself, his story and his message from God. I am sure they heard of the stories told of miracles performed among the Israelites, but was that enough?
I submit this frightening scenario. What happens to food when it sits in a stomach's hydrochloric acid? It digests. We can imagine that when Jonah was spit out of the fish's mouth, after being in there for three days, he looked like a half bleached burned corpse from Hell. They saw this horror of a man strolling into town and threatening God's judgment and were scared to death ... enough to believe his story and repent.

This is just speculation though.