Apokatastasis in the early church

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St. SteVen

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This is succinct and coherent. But I think there's something wrong with it.

If a body doesn't have a spirit in it, it can't be alive. If you've stopped breathing, you're a corpse.

The New Testament talks about people being dead in a figurative manner, sometimes. But figurative is not the same thing as spiritual.
Good point/question.
I believe the physically dead have a spiritual body.

The physical body gives up a spirit. ("give up the ghost")
I think our soul is our individuality, which includes our mind, will and emotions.

The soul accompanies the physical body until physical death.
Then it departs with the spirit into a spiritual body headed for the afterlife.

/
 

amigo de christo

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Didn't YOU read my response? Even the devils believe....but they are not saved are they?

The scriptures you brought do not say that anyone will be saved after this life is over. The whole entire bible warns about God's wrath and judgment, and about dying in one's sins and apart from Christ. If you know of any scriptures that teach that people will be saved after they die then please bring them. So far you haven't. Scriptures throughout the whole bible teach the opposite. It is appointed unto man but once to die and then the judgment.

The entire bible both warns of judgment and offers the only Way to be saved from it at the same time. It simply isn't teaching to avoid dying in your sins no matter what it costs you, but that you really don't need to be too concerned about it in this life because you will be saved after dying in your sins anyhow, at the same time! That's an oxymoron.

Honestly I think the church in general has been too soft in avoiding talking about judgment in recent decades, and I'm guilty of this as well. It is a warning that goes hand in hand with the gospel. That's the reason the gospel is good news, because it saves us from the judgment and wrath of God. There are people who need to hear that for their good. The church has lost the fear of the Lord and society in general as well is casting off restraint.
JESUS made it real clear as to what we were to believe and very clear as to what would occur on the day of the Lord
UNTO all who denied Him . The church has not only been too soft in avoiding talking about judgement
its become the leader of JUDGE NOT , correct not , live and let live do and let do . Once leaven knocks upon the door
and one opens the door to leaven , SHE GONNA BRING LOTS OF BUDDIES
with her .
The parable of the lady of leaven .
There once was a man who kept the door to the house .
Who had been given wise instruction as to what was to be allowed to enter into that house .
And if within that house lady leaven was spotted she was to be removed .
So the man kept the charge of the doorway and did monitor the hallways and did inspections daily
upon all within the house .
The man was quick to remind them , BE SURE and keep your beds good and clean and tidy and in order .
In the process of time
the man began to become a bit slothful in his duty and had become rather concerned with the INCOME UPKEEP
of his house . He began to let things slip within the house in order to keep the people paying every month .
In the process of more time MISS LADY INQUITY and her sister LADY leaven came to call .
She knocked upon the door . The man opened the door
And behold The twin ladies stood before him . He thought within himself
and said OH NO this is lady leaven and her sister lady inquity . BUT quickly became ENAMOURED
with all the treasures she had of monies with her .
SO he decided , okay this will i do . I will not allow her nor her sister to get out of control
but for sake of income i will let them in so as i can keep my montly wage .
The man soon noticed a few complaints from the tenants . The tenants of the building
were noticing certain influences beginning to occur within the house .
They told the man , SINCE lady leaven and her sister did enter
she has been telling certain tenants from within that its no big deal . You dont need to keep your bed so neat and tidy and your
rooms so clean . They have been heeding her .
To which the man then went to lady leaven and her sister and said , Since you two have arrived
the peoples are not keeping clean their rooms as they once did . to which the sisters said
ALAS since we arrived HAVE YOU LACKED income . To which the man then said , WELL NO , INCOME has never
been better . THIS , said they , IS OUR DOING . Now you cannot be so harsh on them nor judge them
ye must simply let GOD correct . ITS Not your job to correct them .
SO the man said , WELL said ladys . TO which he called a meeting of the house
and said before all , IT IS NOT OUR DUTY , nor our call to JUDGE . We must simply try and love them
in the right direction .
The process of time continued on .........
and it was not long before many knocks were coming upon that house . But much noise and uncleanliness they did bring .
A few tenants within said , ITS IMPOSSIBLE for us to live here . we are leaving . you do nothing to try and correct these people .
SO then the man said , alas , let me go again and talk to lady leaven and her sister on this matter .
SO again he went and talked to the two ladies .
He said , ladies , look i am having the threat of some leaving here , can you please tone down the leaven .
TO which again they did reply . SURE you might lose a few , but LOOK at all the numbers you are gaining
Your INCOME , remember YOUR INCOME . IT WILL GROW and you will have larger numbers .
TO which the man said , ALAS you ladies are brilliant . I will get more numbers , so more numbers means more souls
will be saved AND more money too . YOU SO WISE ladies .
SO he went back to the few who did warn him and said , YOU ALL can either find common ground with these ladies
and people or YOU can get out .
IN the process of time the building had began to wear down . the upkeep had been left off .
And in a night and in an hour known to no man , THE ENTIRE BUILDING CRASHED DOWN , KILLING ALL WITHIN IT .
JUST a friendly parable to remind us all about what happens when leaven is let into the doors
what is happening and WHAT WILL HAPPEN ON THE DAY OF THE LORD .
 

amigo de christo

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Gen 3:1-5

Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden;
“but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”
Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

And did they? Think we better just heed the warnings that God gave us for our good. The same old devil comes around with the same old lies.
exactly sister . the lambs gonna BELIEVE what JESUS said , not what inclusive universalists say .
SPOT ON RIGHT sister . POINT TO JESUS CHRIST to the last breath utters out of those lungs .
 

CadyandZoe

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I had to grapple with this issue early on when I rejected the forever burning hell doctrine.
The definition of aonios as an age (aeon) , does not limit eternity. Every age is followed by another age.
Only God is eternal.

/
It does when speaking about a specific age known as "the age of ages." There is coming a final age, the age to end all ages.
 
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quietthinker

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Apokatastasis in the early church​

I s'pose pockets for stashing have always been used. :contemplate:
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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First you say "word for word", then you say "400 words in question". Which is it?
Word for word accuracy would be for certain in the original copy. That does not negate whether later copies weren't exactly copies!
Copies of the New Testament may include 400 words in question. The Old Testament, maybe more? The Dead Sea Scrolls revealed a complete copy of the book of Isaiah, word for word. Those scrolls were written before Christ and the earliest copy was around 1000 AD. So evidently the scribes were accurate with that book and likely the rest as well. Once again, the All Mighty God is at work preserving His Word - don't you think?

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus – Textual Criticism 101​


"It shouldn’t come as a surprise, but we don’t have the original documents that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, and other New Testament writers wrote. They were originally written on either papyrus (essentially paper) or possibly parchment (animal skins) which have long since degraded with time and use. However, the originals were copied many, many times. Those copies were copied, which were copied, which were copied, which were
Yes, but we have hundreds of copies made within 100 years of the originals.

>Compared with other books of antiquity, the Bible is regarded as most reliable:

Author / Original - 1st copy /#manuscripts
Plato / 1,200 yrs. / 7;
Herodotus / 1,300 yrs . / 8;
Thucydides. / 1,300 yrs. / 8;
Aristotle. / 1,400 yrs. / 49;
Josephus. / 1,000 yrs. / 120;
Homer (Iliad) / 500 yrs. / 643;
4 Gospels / 100 yrs. / 1700;
Paul’s Epistles / 110- 150 / 800;
Acts. / 200. / 650;
Epistles. / 150-200 / 600;

Revelation. / 150-200 / 300

5800 Greek NT manuscripts include fragments (Sinaiticus, Alexanderinus, etc)
10000 Latin (Vaticanus)
9300 in other languages

These scribes took the Word of God very seriously: With prayer, a special room, undisturbed. I've read they would identify the center letter of a particular word _ by count _ of the entire New Testament _ and if it was off, they would trash it. Honestly, do you think you can copy a letter from your Mommy accurately word for word without any mistakes? These guys were experts. Textual critics reveals insignificant errors: misspelled words, flip flops phrases, nothing that effects the message.
Why would we consider anything beyond what we know was a direct quote from God through a Prophet to be scripture?
That is the point. How much if the Bible do YOU consider to be from God?
The first stone we need to build this belief system starts with a trustworthy historical account. If we don't have that, then we don't have much to base our faith on.
Once we accept the trustworthiness of the Bible, that has been tested archeological for it accuracy over and over, then we can begin to believe. Even of the WORD wasn't inherent or infallible, at least we could get an idea of who Jesus was and what He did.
Then the skeptic may ask, Who was He? What did He say? What did He do?
Was He a Prophet or a false Proohet?
A prophet speaks from God. . If there were any problems with their reliability, He would have said so. He prophesied about the TRUTH. Jesus confirms the Old Testament scriptures as the WORD of GOD. He spoke of things to come and concerning the WORD: " ...till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." Matt. 5:18

So the question to YOU is: If the scriptures aren't reliable, what is your belief based on? How can you be sure who Jesus is, what he did if as you say, scripture was man-made, collected and put together by men hundreds of years later?

True Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God, Savior and Lord because our faith comes by the Word. We trust it to be true.

Skeptics have created this tension within themselves, having doubts about the reliability of scripture, hence they lack faith and argue over what is and what is not truth.
 
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St. SteVen

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Word for word accuracy would be for certain in the original copy.
You mean the original autograph. (manuscript) Too bad we don't have one.

That does not negate whether later copies weren't exactly copies!
Compared to what?
Textual variants are found across the board.
Leading to three different approaches to Textual Criticism.
In order to arrive at our best guess of what the original autographs may have said.
And then we have different methods of translation and doctrinal bias to contend with.
It gets messy.

Copies of the New Testament may include 400 words in question. The Old Testament, maybe more?
So much for biblical inerrancy.

The Dead Sea Scrolls revealed a complete copy of the book of Isaiah, word for word.
Compared to what?

Those scrolls were written before Christ and the earliest copy was around 1000 AD.
LOL
I'm guessing you meant BC, not AD.

'
 

St. SteVen

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Yes, but we have hundreds of copies made within 100 years of the originals.
Can you cite your source?

These scribes took the Word of God very seriously: With prayer, a special room, undisturbed. I've read they would identify the center letter of a particular word _ by count _ of the entire New Testament _ and if it was off, they would trash it. Honestly, do you think you can copy a letter from your Mommy accurately word for word without any mistakes? These guys were experts.
Citation needed.
I think you are confusing the NT and OT scribes work.
Plus there are more than one canon of scripture. Both NT and OT.
Which one is "God's word"?

Textual critics reveals insignificant errors: misspelled words, flip flops phrases, nothing that effects the message.
Some textual variants were quite significant.
Check the extensive footnotes on the New English Translation. (NET)

/
 

St. SteVen

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That is the point. How much if the Bible do YOU consider to be from God?
The first stone we need to build this belief system starts with a trustworthy historical account. If we don't have that, then we don't have much to base our faith on.
That sounds like Bibliolatry to me. We should worship the author, not the book.


/
 
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St. SteVen

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So the question to YOU is: If the scriptures aren't reliable, what is your belief based on? How can you be sure who Jesus is, what he did if as you say, scripture was man-made, collected and put together by men hundreds of years later?
That's a good question actually. Thank you.

My belief is based on a realistic evaluation of where our Bible came from and a relationship with the author.
If I had to choose between the two, I would stick with the author and let the book go.

The scriptures were indeed "man-made, collected and put together by men hundreds of years later", as you say.

/ @Chadrho
 
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CadyandZoe

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You mean the original autograph. (manuscript) Too bad we don't have one.
Perhaps not. But we have enough copies that a faithful replica can be assembled.
Compared to what?
Textual variants are found across the board.
Leading to three different approaches to Textual Criticism.
In order to arrive at our best guess of what the original autographs may have said.
And then we have different methods of translation and doctrinal bias to contend with.
It gets messy.
It's messy but possible.
So much for biblical inerrancy.
Jesus believed that the Bible was without error. So do I.
 
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Wick Stick

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So the question to YOU is: If the scriptures aren't reliable, what is your belief based on? How can you be sure who Jesus is, what he did if as you say, scripture was man-made, collected and put together by men hundreds of years later?
Ooh.. I want a crack at that one, too.

It's only Protestants whose cornerstone is the Bible, and that has only been the case since the Reformation.

Catholics and Orthodox have the Church as their foundation, and the Bible's credibility is inherited from the Church.

For Messianic Jews, tradition is the base, and the Bible is credible because it is part of tradition.

Christian Deists base themselves on their belief in God, and are more-or-less credulous of Bible because it is the revelation of that God that is most available or most plausible.

And then there are rogue Christians who base themselves on a relationship and personal communication with God. For them, the Bible is a tool to double-check their revelations against.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Ooh.. I want a crack at that one, too.

It's only Protestants whose cornerstone is the Bible, and that has only been the case since the Reformation.

Catholics and Orthodox have the Church as their foundation, and the Bible's credibility is inherited from the Church.

For Messianic Jews, tradition is the base, and the Bible is credible because it is part of tradition.

Christian Deists base themselves on their belief in God, and are more-or-less credulous of Bible because it is the revelation of that God that is most available or most plausible.

And then there are rogue Christians who base themselves on a relationship and personal communication with God. For them, the Bible is a tool to double-check their revelations against.
What is your view based on - was the question.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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I agree.
But how much of the Bible are written words quoted from God?

/
I have and use about seven English translations and they all get the message across. For instance, concerning Romans 1:24-28, all versions give the same message.
I use Biblegateway.com and can pull up 60 versions and examine each scripture. There's a lot of scholarship devoted to each one. I actually got saved after reading a paraphrased version " The Living Bible". I didn't know which one to get some 33 years ago. So it wasn't word for word yet I received the truth, was led to Christ, forgiveness and salvation. Then of course I got a KJV, NKJV, NASB, and other versions over the years.