Apokatastasis in the early church

[amigo de christo]

a lie cannot save .
no matter how good and caring it might seem to be , IT WILL NOT SAVE .
ADAM and EVE had been warned that in the day ye eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
YE SHALL SURELY DIE .
The serpent said , NAY ye shall NOT surely die............
the serpent made it sound so good and as though he cared for their souls and was there to help them .
HE LIED . they DIED .
I SUGGEST we read what JESUS had to say about those who DO BELEIVE and about those who BELIEVE NOT .
Cause IF JESUS said it , GOD said it . ITS TIME TO PREACH AGAIN the DIRE NECESSITY TO BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST .
let us not be as was the sepernt and try and find a way to OMIT that , cause it didnt bode well for ol adam
and eve or mankind when they too chose to heed and to believe the serpent and not RATHER what GOD had said .
Lets give ol univeralism a boot out the door . LET US do as did the early church who did as DID CHRIST .
TIME TO PREACH THE DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST
and remind them what occurs to those who hear and yet BELIEVED NOT . Never let a lie give one false hope .
RATHER GET YOUR HOPE FROM THE TRUTH , FROM THE CHRIST OF GOD . beleiving as children EVERY WORD HE DID TEACH
and later the apostels BY THE SPIRIT would teach . its real simple really .

 

[St. SteVen]

The man sees things through the lens of universalism

Interpretation is always through the lens of preconception.
We all do it. No reason to single me out. You do it too.

many now are
they are at best going through scriptures , picking and choosing part

That saw cuts both ways.

omit the very warnings of CHRIST

On the contrary.

No matter how much hope it seems to offer up

Hope should not disappoint us.

A LIE CANNOT SAVE . BUT JESUS CAN

Universalism (UR) claims nothing less and considerably more.
Actual Good News that is for ALL people.

/

 

[amigo de christo]

Countless billions have been created for a purpose, some for life and some for death. The knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL had unavoidable consequences that God found necessary. Sin needs to be judged.
Get rid of police and penalties for breaking the laws of the land and see what happens.
Liberals like to view God as LOVE only, not as a God of justice and judgment.
YOU STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT DEATH IS, WHAT WE ARE SAVED FROM.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Apparently you are in denial that there are two destinations: Heaven and Hell.
Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.”
Matt. 7:13-14
So yes, billions do not enter into the narrow gate.
I don't judge and condemn people, the One who sits on the Great White Throne will as He has since the beginning. Did you think the Flood of Noah that destroyed hundreds of millions was real or just a myth?

Just to make a point of your passionate efforts for the LGBT cause, which is tied to your hopeful illusion of Universalism, that everyone is eventually forgiven. That makes Grace cheap and devalued if everyone is saved. That makes the thousands of years and lifes dedicated to and many martyred for the spreading of the gospel meaningless, devalued as well. What's the point? If everyone gets saved then any or no religion is okay ... believe what you want and live hiw you want. And a relationship with God in this life ... ah don't worry about it, God forgives all in the end. That is the mindset, it accommodates for any and all kinds of sin, any belief system, any which way you want to go as if all roads lead to Heaven. And apparently, Hades and the Lake of Fire are not really that bad - a re-education camp, Purgatory, a reform school, a second chance.



You made those numerous defensive claims in those threads that others are aware of and can easily be looked up. What, you want to deny your own points of view? People dig their own holes. When they are cornered, they deny -- a typical liberal defense tactic right out of their play book.
Jesus said we have one life, one death and then the Judgment. We can be certain that our opportunity to reconcile with God occurs in this life only.

Read Romans 1:24-28. These are reprobates. There is no recourse for them. To be fair, GOD gives a person ample opportunities to get with the program - this particular group is judged long before they even die. "He gives them over" ( let's them go, washes His hands of them) to do whatever they chose.
His elect sheep may resist and rebel, but He eventually gets their attention before they die. But certain people are judged severely long before death as an example. Stephen Hawkins was one example. A gifted genius who never acknowledged God and spent his life trying to disprove God and the necessity of God with his theories. He led many astray. God confounds the intellects, the arrogant and prideful.

I gotta say , if these universalists had even a tenth of the zeal for actually preaching the dire need to believe on JESUS CHRIST
as they do for preaching contrary to the gospel , THEY COULD HAVE WON SOME SOULS .
I seem to notice men can have great zeal for things . BUT MARK My words well , IF THEIR ZEAL is for anything contrary
to GOD , CHRIST , to the GOSPEL HE TAUGHT , IT WONT BODE WELL for them .
I say let our ZEAL BE FOR GOD , FOR CHRIST , FOR HIS GOSPEL . cause THAT GOSPEL WILL SAVE if one BELIEVES .
this other thing , this other hope , WONT SAVE SQUAT , and it DOES TROD JESUS CHRIST right under foot too .
AND BELIEVE ME that is not gonna bode well at all for those who did such a thing . THEY bess get zealous and Repent of it
IS ALL i can say . TIME to preach JESUS CHRIST again , the DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE IN HE WHOM GOD DID SEND.

 

[Lizbeth]

I'm glad that you at least understand that aionios does not mean eternal. (age-lasting or age-during) as you wrote.
Now if you can understand that kolasis doesn't mean punishment, all the pieces of UR will fit together better.

/

If aonios doesn't mean eternal then God isn't eternal and eternal life isn't eternal. Need to do a word study on the word "everlasting" in both old and new testaments.

And maybe start with what Daniel wrote about the resurrection of the dead......some will rise to everlasting life and others to shame and everlasting contempt. Which cleanly and directly contradicts what one of your church "fathers" wrote. Dangerous to believe what men say over the word of God.

There is a reason we were warned about ear tickling messages and doctrines....such things please the flesh and draws in the many for that reason. Where someone rightly pointed out the verse that says the broad way leads to destruction which many find. And destruction means destruction. As does perish and perdition.

 

[St. SteVen]

Dangerous to believe what men say over the word of God.

Where does that leave us?

Humankind are the custodians of God's words.
How shall they hear... ??? (Romans 10:14)

God didn't write the Bible.
Humankind gathered a collection of man-made books in the fourth century.
And printed Bibles were not available to the public until the 1500s.

But don't believe me. - LOL

/

 

[St. SteVen]

If aonios doesn't mean eternal then God isn't eternal and eternal life isn't eternal.

I had to grapple with this issue early on when I rejected the forever burning hell doctrine.
The definition of aonios as an age (aeon) , does not limit eternity. Every age is followed by another age.
Only God is eternal.

/

 

[Lizbeth]

I had to grapple with this issue early on when I rejected the forever burning hell doctrine.
The definition of aonios as an age (aeon) , does not limit eternity. Every age is followed by another age.
Only God is eternal.

/

Gen 3:1-5

Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden;
“but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”
Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

And did they? Think we better just heed the warnings that God gave us for our good. The same old devil comes around with the same old lies.

 

[Lizbeth]

Where does that leave us?

Humankind are the custodians of God's words.
How shall they hear... ??? (Romans 10:14)

God didn't write the Bible.
Humankind gathered a collection of man-made books in the fourth century.
And printed Bibles were not available to the public until the 1500s.

But don't believe me. - LOL

/

Believe me, I don't believe you.

The scriptures are not man-made but were inspired by God and the truths they express are His.

2Pe 1:19-21

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The teachings/writings of the apostles are also of God....they form a solid and true foundation because they are built upon the cornerstone which is Christ.

 

[St. SteVen]

The same old devil comes around with the same old lies.

Did you somehow get the idea that I was claiming that we will never die?

/

 

[St. SteVen]

The scriptures are not man-made but were inspired by God and the truths they express are His.

2Pe 1:19-21

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Your "proof-text" proves my point.

"... no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. ... holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

- Who prophesied? (holy MEN)
- Who spoke? (holy MEN)
- Who was moved by the Holy Ghost? (holy MEN)

Holy men = man-made

/

 

[Lizbeth]

Did you somehow get the idea that I was claiming that we will never die?

/

Physical death is but a parable/picture/shadow/allegory of what awaits those who die in their iniquity.

 

[Lizbeth]

Your "proof-text" proves my point.

"... no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. ... holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

- Who prophesied? (holy MEN)
- Who spoke? (holy MEN)
- Who was moved by the Holy Ghost? (holy MEN)

Holy men = man-made

/

Men are but vessels for the Master's use. The word of God is not man-made, otherwise it wouldn't be GOD's word. Those words weren't the writers' own, but they came from God and the writers faithfully wrote them down.

Hmm, so now you want to make a case for what is man-made. Interesting. Sadly it leads to death. I asked the Lord one time what is it about so many churches that it brings the life of the Spirit to death? The answer came from Him forthwith. One word. "Artificial." ie, man-made. There is no life in what is man-made and His house is not built with hands of men. This is why it's so important to remain in the simplicity of Christ and allow HIM to be Head of His church by His Spirit.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

God didn't write the Bible.
Humankind gathered a collection of man-made books in the fourth century.

There is your problem! You pick and choose scripture that works for you, sounds logical and discard the rest. Why? Because you do not believe in the entire Bible.
>> You don't think it is reliable, passed down accurately and maybe partially inspired by God but much needs to be questioned. And so you set out to decipher what is acceptable to you or not.<<
This is another popular liberal mindset (the Bible was created by man ... has been changed ... is not reliable ... bla, bla, bla); and that not only discourages people from seeking God or at best lends itself to a half-hearted invitation but with a grain of salt, granting the individual the liberty to judge and decide which scriptures feel right, are logical, based on their own reasoning. Faith comes by the Word and so the faith of this individual will be weak at best, filled with doubts and confusion.

So here we are, the rest of us, who believe in the reliabity of scripture _ word for word and we argue over scriptures that you don't accept.

All Scripture is God breathed. It is inspired by God in such perfection as to communicate exactly word for word God's message.
>>Likely you Ihave not experienced anything like this, being filled with the Holy Spirit and speaking or writing exactly the thoughts of God without any interruption of your own to stop and interpret or add human reason or logic to the message.<<
No, I doubt it!
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation.
God gave prophecies to man of hundreds of events that happened in the future with hair-splitting accuracy. Man did not stop and analyze these things, question them. In many instances he did not understand what he was writing. It has been said that over 300 prophecies about Christ were fulfilled and some 300 more left to be fulfilled upon His return. Which ones will you doubt and question? Which ones will you distort or just discard? "Nah ... that isn't from God ... John must have had a weird dream or something?" Watch out for those demon locusts that torture people for five months!

These prophets and writers were empowered and I might go as far to say possessed by God for the task.
Ask yourself this: If God wanted to get an accurrate message to mankind and used us to do it, don't you think an all powerful God would also protect it, make sure it was passed down without errors? We can be certain that 99.99% has been passed down accurately with only 400 words in question that do not alter any doctrine whatsoever. Misspelled words or flip flop phrases don't really change the message.

The Biblical scriptures are reliable, cohesive, supportive, truth and life, behind which is the power of God.

 

[St. SteVen]

Physical death is but a parable/picture/shadow/allegory of what awaits those who die in their iniquity.

From my perspective, there are two kinds of life and two kinds of death.

- Physical life and physical death
- Spiritual life and spiritual death

We are all born physically alive and spiritually dead
Spiritual life comes to the Elect in this lifetime, and to everyone else in the afterlife.
No one can come to God until he draws them.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

So here we are, the rest of us, who believe in the reliabity of scripture _ word for word... ...
These prophets and writers were empowered and I might go as far to say possessed by God for the task.
Ask yourself this: If God wanted to get an accurrate message to mankind and used us to do it, don't you think an all powerful God would also protect it, make sure it was passed down without errors? We can be certain that 99.99% has been passed down accurately with only 400 words in question that do not alter any doctrine whatsoever. Misspelled words or flip flop phrases don't really change the message.

First you say "word for word", then you say "400 words in question". Which is it?

From:

Majority Text vs. Critical Text vs. Textus Receptus – Textual Criticism 101​

"It shouldn’t come as a surprise, but we don’t have the original documents that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, and other New Testament writers wrote. They were originally written on either papyrus (essentially paper) or possibly parchment (animal skins) which have long since degraded with time and use. However, the originals were copied many, many times. Those copies were copied, which were copied, which were copied, which were…

Well, you get the idea.

So what we have are copies of copies of the original (sometimes many generations of copying deep). Before Gutenberg invented the printing press in the early-mid 1400s, everything was copied by hand. Therefore, it should come as no surprise that the scribes who did the copying occasionally made some mistakes.

When two copies disagree with each other, you have a variant in the text between two documents: this is (unsurprisingly) called a “Textual Variant”."

Source

/

 

[St. SteVen]

All Scripture is God breathed. It is inspired by God in such perfection as to communicate exactly word for word God's message.

Wouldn't this also give us a solid definition of what is actually scripture and what isn't?
Why would we consider anything beyond what we know was a direct quote from God through a Prophet to be scripture?
Do you have a definition that covers the vast areas in the Bible that are not a "Thus saith the Lord..."?

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Men are but vessels for the Master's use. The word of God is not man-made, otherwise it wouldn't be GOD's word. Those words weren't the writers' own, but they came from God and the writers faithfully wrote them down.

More contradictory statements.

Since men were the vessels, the scriptures came from men. (the vessels)
A vessel is a carrier.

"... the writers faithfully wrote them down." = written by men.

/

 

[amigo de christo]

If aonios doesn't mean eternal then God isn't eternal and eternal life isn't eternal. Need to do a word study on the word "everlasting" in both old and new testaments.

And maybe start with what Daniel wrote about the resurrection of the dead......some will rise to everlasting life and others to shame and everlasting contempt. Which cleanly and directly contradicts what one of your church "fathers" wrote. Dangerous to believe what men say over the word of God.

There is a reason we were warned about ear tickling messages and doctrines....such things please the flesh and draws in the many for that reason. Where someone rightly pointed out the verse that says the broad way leads to destruction which many find. And destruction means destruction. As does perish and perdition.

BULLS EYE sister . you just proved all them great and mighty scholars DEAD WRONG TOO .
IF AONIOS. you see THEY SAYING they claiming IT MEANS this or that . I AM TELLING US ALL
THERE HAS BEEN an agenda at work TO TRANSFORM CHRISTANITY FROM WITHIN . THEY keep on pumping
the greek words , and their meanings unto the churches . YET THE BIBLE was translated CORRECTLY by those
true men whose desire was FOR THE PEOPLE TO KNOW THE WORD of GOD . THEY have LIED TO US ALL SISTER .
THEY have tried to make us believe that those men of old , men like tyndale , men like wycliff
men who even wrote the KJV did not understand the greek LIKE THEY DO TODAY . ITS ALL A HOAX.
YOU EXPOSED IT SISTER . Cause IF aonios dont mean eternal , BINGO . THEY LYING TO US sister .
They have been . THERE IS AN AGENDA at work TO UNIFY the world and religoins as one .
And they will do as they will do to make us to doubt the bible and to trust IN THEM . THIS LAMB AINT BUYING SQUAT they sell .
BUY THE TRUTH and SELL HER NOT I SAY , but i didnt say it first , but SAY IT I DO .

 

[Wick Stick]

From my perspective, there are two kinds of life and two kinds of death.

- Physical life and physical death
- Spiritual life and spiritual death

We are all born physically alive and spiritually dead
Spiritual life comes to the Elect in this lifetime, and to everyone else in the afterlife.
No one can come to God until he draws them.

This is succinct and coherent. But I think there's something wrong with it.

If a body doesn't have a spirit in it, it can't be alive. If you've stopped breathing, you're a corpse.

The New Testament talks about people being dead in a figurative manner, sometimes. But figurative is not the same thing as spiritual.

 

[amigo de christo]

Men are but vessels for the Master's use. The word of God is not man-made, otherwise it wouldn't be GOD's word. Those words weren't the writers' own, but they came from God and the writers faithfully wrote them down.

Hmm, so now you want to make a case for what is man-made. Interesting. Sadly it leads to death. I asked the Lord one time what is it about so many churches that it brings the life of the Spirit to death? The answer came from Him forthwith. One word. "Artificial." ie, man-made. There is no life in what is man-made and His house is not built with hands of men. This is why it's so important to remain in the simplicity of Christ and allow HIM to be Head of His church by His Spirit.

BINGO .
they chose rather to believe in these other concepts . TRUSTING IN THEM as though THEY the word of GOD .
and always down playing the bible they will do . AN AGENDA of all out darkness is now at work .
TO UNIFY the world , all not in the lambs book of life unto THE LIE .
The lie that will merge the religoins of the world and humanity to be as one under what it calls , IT CALLS and what IT CONSIDERS
LOVE . the devil is slick sister . YOU SEE preaching JESUS , the dire need to BELIEVE ON HIM TO be saved
IS IN THE WAY . IT gets in the way of THIS UNIFYING FORCE OF TOTAL DARKNESS .
Thus universalism and other concepts are to be taught . HAVING BUT ONE WAY and to have to BELIEVE IN that way
WELL IT GETS IN THEIR WAY . most folks got no idea what spirit they are of nor just who has been manipulating them all along .
But lambs know WHAT SPIRIT they are of and in the bible they do stay . Take note only one spirit was captilized .
AND GOOD reason for it too . many are now under influence of another spirit , another voice
another word , another love , anothers voice that has come to unify them all to be as one . AND IT AINT UNDER GOD , UNDER CHRIST
either .