Apokatastasis in the early church

[St. SteVen]

What does it mean to perish like the beasts? It means no eternal life, like animals aren't given eternal life.

That's an assumption. What was Jesus riding in Revelation?

Only for those who are granted eternal life - that is how our bodies are redeemed (of those who are redeemed from among men).

Everyone will have spiritual bodies.

There is more than one sense of "knowing". Are you even being honest at all, or are you spiritually blind to what the scriptures teach? Jesus said many are going to hear, "Away from me I never knew you" on the day of the Lord.

"Away from me..." Doesn't mean they can't back when they are ready.

He built the ark but not all are willing to get aboard sadly.

There was no offer to humankind outside of Noah's family. The beasts of the field were welcome though.

First of all the apostle wrote that men are without excuse.

A favorite apologetic that doesn't hold water. Is there salvation in acknowledging a creator in creation?
Try again. What about the countless billions that have never heard?

Weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Right. Like when you repented. - LOL
We all will need a tune-up.

/

 

[Lizbeth]

That's an assumption. What was Jesus riding in Revelation?

Goodness, are you thinking that is a literal horse? He speaks to us in parables.

Everyone will have spiritual bodies.

We are warned to fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell/Hades.

"Away from me..." Doesn't mean they can't back when they are ready.

Luk 13:25

When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are

There was no offer to humankind outside of Noah's family. The beasts of the field were welcome though.

Bible says Noah sure did preach to that generation. And those animals were a parable too.

A favorite apologetic that doesn't hold water. Is there salvation in acknowledging a creator in creation?
Try again. What about the countless billions that have never heard?

You try telling the Lord God Almighty that His word doesn't hold water. I already answered your argument about those who haven't been reached with the gospel by human messengers.

Right. Like when you repented. - LOL
We all will need a tune-up.

Weeping and gnashing of teeth signifies regret beyond words, knowing that it is too late. When we come to the Lord we may be weeping with joy and sorrowing over our sinful past, but not gnashing our teeth in regret because we're too busy being happy and grateful. Never in my life have I heard a testimony of anyone gnashing their teeth in regret or banging their head against the wall when coming to the Lord. It's always a happy occasion....kiss and make up time!

We're being tuned up in the here and now that we may partake of His holiness, but our final tune up comes when immortality swallows up mortality.

You keep bringing human arguments while me and others here bring the word of God. Either you don't know the Lord (yet) or you are in complete denial and blind as to what the word of God says. How about bringing SCRIPTURES that teach unbelievers and wicked will be tuned up or rehabilitated after death. I only see a second death awaiting them sadly and there is no mention at all in the bible about a third resurrection. Not a good thing to be giving people a false hope when they need to be warned for their own good.

Me in my own emotional humanity would rather all souls be saved, but I am only human and not the Almighty. We need to see things from HIS perspective. He is God and we are not, and we trust that He is righteous and just and does all things well.

 

[amigo de christo]

You are ignoring and not addressing the point of my post and the scriptures I brought. What does it mean to perish like the beasts? It means no eternal life, like animals aren't given eternal life.


Only for those who are granted eternal life - that is how our bodies are redeemed (of those who are redeemed from among men).


There is more than one sense of "knowing". Are you even being honest at all, or are you spiritually blind to what the scriptures teach? Jesus said many are going to hear, "Away from me I never knew you" on the day of the Lord.


Yes He did. He built the ark but not all are willing to get aboard sadly. And do you know that not all are "appointed to eternal life" therefore? Have a read of these scriptures:

Act 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained (appointed) to eternal life believed.

1Th 5:9-10
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

1Pe 2:8
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.


And yet the apostle wrote that God is willing to make His wrath known and that He has created some to be vessels of His wrath. Go figure. Based on His foreknowledge of who would reject His Son or be willing to receive Him, I believe. The Lord is omniscient and sovereign over everything - He knows the end from the beginning and has taken it all into account and "gone before" as it were. That is how I understand it up to now at least, though we only know in part.


First of all the apostle wrote that men are without excuse. Because what may be known of God has been made known to them. It is written in creation itself. And God's arm is not too short to save those He foreknows. In places that are unreached with the gospel He saves people without a human messenger, through dreams, visions etc. There are many testimonies of this. No one who is appointed to salvation will be left out.


Yes, but many to their shame and regret when it is too late, sadly! Weeping and gnashing of teeth.

He reads the scrips through the view of carnal mens wisdom , of universalism .
Forgetting quickly many things which speak directly against what he desires and desired to believe to be truth .
It is GODS desire for men to be saved . THIS HOWEVER Dont mean those who deny will be saved .
universalism is deadly dangerous . He sees the bible and all that is written therein through the wrong lens ,
and not rather through the lens of truth , of GOD .
GOD himself chose , DECIDED , pre determined HOW to save . And it wasnt through the idea
of universalism but rather through the PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL .

 

[amigo de christo]

Goodness, are you thinking that is a literal horse? He speaks to us in parables.


We are warned to fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell/Hades.



Luk 13:25

When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are


Bible says Noah sure did preach to that generation. And those animals were a parable too.


You try telling the Lord God Almighty that His word doesn't hold water. I already answered your argument about those who haven't been reached with the gospel by human messengers.


Weeping and gnashing of teeth signifies regret beyond words, knowing that it is too late. When we come to the Lord we may be weeping with joy and sorrowing over our sinful past, but not gnashing our teeth in regret because we're too busy being happy and grateful. Never in my life have I heard a testimony of anyone gnashing their teeth in regret or banging their head against the wall when coming to the Lord. It's always a happy occasion....kiss and make up time!

We're being tuned up in the here and now that we may partake of His holiness, but our final tune up comes when immortality swallows up mortality.

You keep bringing human arguments while me and others here bring the word of God. Either you don't know the Lord (yet) or you are in complete denial and blind as to what the word of God says. How about bringing SCRIPTURES that teach unbelievers and wicked will be tuned up or rehabilitated after death. I only see a second death awaiting them sadly and there is no mention at all in the bible about a third resurrection. Not a good thing to be giving people a false hope when they need to be warned for their own good.

Me in my own emotional humanity would rather all souls be saved, but I am only human and not the Almighty. We need to see things from HIS perspective. He is God and we are not, and we trust that He is righteous and just and does all things well.

We need to see things through WHOSE perspective . exactly sister . how can a man see through the lens of men .
OH WAIT HE CANT . WE ALL would love to see ALL of humanity saved . AS DOES GOD .
THUS we gonna POINT TO BELIEVING IN HE WHO DOES SAVE , AS GOD DID HIMSELF , CAUSE GOD HIMSELF
TESTIFIED and by the SPIRIT STILL TESTIFIES of HOW to be saved . YEAH , ITS JESUS PREACHING TIME .
GOD CHOSE how to do , how to save . but apparently men must think they to be GOD
as they offer up FALSE HOPES that will not save SQUAT .
UNIVERSALISM saves not but offers up false hope . THE PREACHING OF THE DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST
which GOD CHOSE TO DO , now that DO SAVE if one DO BELIEVE .
THE SAME SAVOIR , THE SAME ONE , that VERY ONE , who was before all were , MADE IT QUITE CLEAR
preach the gospel to all , he who believes will be saved , he who believes not will be damned .
HE NEVER SAID OH WELL , if they dont beleive , EVENTUALLY THEY WILL and all will be well .
HE SAID DAMNED . GOD DO as HE DO . THIS POT aint gonna question my creator as to why HE DO
THIS POT is simply gonna embrace HE WHO DOES SAVE and PREACH THAT NAME and offer up NO OTHER HOPE .

 

[St. SteVen]

Goodness, are you thinking that is a literal horse? He speaks to us in parables.

Not in this case. If so, where is the interpretation?

We are warned to fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell/Hades.

That proves my point that we will all have spiritual bodies.
Otherwise, what is to destroy?

Bible says Noah sure did preach to that generation. And those animals were a parable too.

That's a flannel board lie from Sunday School. (children's books)
I see no indication of that in the Flood narrative.

The animals were a parable? Where did all the animals come from after the flood then?
Or do you believe the Flood was a parable too.

You try telling the Lord God Almighty that His word doesn't hold water.

It's the apologetic that doesn't hold water.
The claim made in Romans is that there is no excuse to not recognize God as creator.
Nothing to do with salvation.

How about bringing SCRIPTURES that teach unbelievers and wicked will be tuned up or rehabilitated after death.

I thought you would never ask. - LOL
I won't give you everything I have all at once. But this is a good start.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

/

 

[Lizbeth]

Not in this case. If so, where is the interpretation?

Well for one thing, horses in scripture signify war.....battle horse. Jesus came the first time riding a donkey, signifying that He came in a spirit of peace and reconciliation and meekness. But not so when He comes again to judge the world...this time He comes to make war against His enemies.

That's a flannel board lie from Sunday School. (children's books)
I see no indication of that in the Flood narrative.

The animals were a parable? Where did all the animals come from after the flood then?
Or do you believe the Flood was a parable too.

New testament says Noah was a preacher of righteousness. 2 Peter 2:5

The account of Noah did happen literally, but it also speaks spiritual lessons to the church in a parable. It wasn't just written down to give us a history lesson. The scriptures weren't written to be a history book, though things did happen historically, but we are to compare spiritual with spiritual.

I thought you would never ask. - LOL
I won't give you everything I have all at once. But this is a good start.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

That's just more wishful thinking and reasoning.

The bible says even the devils believe, and tremble. (James 2:19) Think it would be blasphemous to suggest that demons have the Holy Spirit and that they are saved.

Our God is a consuming fire....in the end He will "consume" everything that is not hidden in the cleft of the Rock that is Christ, and that therefore can't withstand the fire and shaking and "remain". I mean, isn't that what the scriptures show? Whereas believers go through fire and flood in this life now and are to endure it patiently.....judgment begins with His house..... but we are being forged and purified in it (because Christ is with us in in it), rather than destroyed. The entire bible warns the human race and speaks over and over again of the coming judgment and wrath.....this is kind of oozing from every pore of the bible. Why go to all that trouble to warn and shout and cajole and chastise if in the end it won't matter anyhow....? I mean really...? So many of God's people down through the ages spending and laying down their lives and subjecting themselves to untold suffering to faithfully prophesy and warn of judgment and preach the gospel when in the end it turns out that the gospel isn't needed in the end anyhow? Really?

Rev 3:10-11
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

It strikes me as kind of interesting how the people of the earth will be crying out for the rocks of the earth to cover and hide them from the wrath of the Lamb, after rejecting "the Rock" to be hidden in....?

 

[St. SteVen]

That's just more wishful thinking and reasoning.

Very dismissive response.

I gave you a detailed AND scriptural explanation of my position. AS REQUESTED! !!!
And you just blew it off. Did you even bother to read it? ???

At least answer a few questions based on my presentation. Please.

- What does under the earth mean in Phil.2:10? (provided below)
- Does the Strong's definition of "acknowledge" mean willingly. or unwillingly? See bottom of post.
- Can anyone say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit? see 1Cor.12:3 (provided below)
- According to Rom.10:9, If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” will you will be saved?
- Did Christ die and return to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living? See Rom.14:9

Here's what you wrote. (followed by my response)

How about bringing SCRIPTURES that teach unbelievers and wicked will be tuned up or rehabilitated after death.

I thought you would never ask. - LOL
I won't give you everything I have all at once. But this is a good start.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

/ @Hillsage

 

[Lizbeth]

Very dismissive response.

I gave you a detailed AND scriptural explanation of my position. AS REQUESTED! !!!
And you just blew it off. Did you even bother to read it? ???

At least answer a few questions based on my presentation. Please.

- What does under the earth mean in Phil.2:10? (provided below)
- Does the Strong's definition of "acknowledge" mean willingly. or unwillingly? See bottom of post.
- Can anyone say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit? see 1Cor.12:3 (provided below)
- According to Rom.10:9, If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” will you will be saved?
- Did Christ die and return to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living? See Rom.14:9

Here's what you wrote. (followed by my response)

I thought you would never ask. - LOL
I won't give you everything I have all at once. But this is a good start.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

/ @Hillsage

Didn't YOU read my response? Even the devils believe....but they are not saved are they?

The scriptures you brought do not say that anyone will be saved after this life is over. The whole entire bible warns about God's wrath and judgment, and about dying in one's sins and apart from Christ. If you know of any scriptures that teach that people will be saved after they die then please bring them. So far you haven't. Scriptures throughout the whole bible teach the opposite. It is appointed unto man but once to die and then the judgment.

The entire bible both warns of judgment and offers the only Way to be saved from it at the same time. It simply isn't teaching to avoid dying in your sins no matter what it costs you, but that you really don't need to be too concerned about it in this life because you will be saved after dying in your sins anyhow, at the same time! That's an oxymoron.

Honestly I think the church in general has been too soft in avoiding talking about judgment in recent decades, and I'm guilty of this as well. It is a warning that goes hand in hand with the gospel. That's the reason the gospel is good news, because it saves us from the judgment and wrath of God. There are people who need to hear that for their good. The church has lost the fear of the Lord and society in general as well is casting off restraint.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Here are just a few quotes by the early church fathers, compiled by Gary Amirault’s diligent work, that discuss their beliefs about punishment and restoration in the afterlife:

The mass of men (Christians) say there is to be an end to punishment and to those who are punished.—St. Basil the Great

There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments. — Augustine (354-430 A.D.)

For the wicked there are punishments, not perpetural, however, lest the immortality prepared for them should be a disadvantage, but they are to be purified for a brief period according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness having no end awaits them…the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave sins are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed to them. –Diodore of Tarsus, 320-394 A.D.

And God showed great kindness to man, in this, that He did not suffer him to continue being in sin forever; but as it were, by a kind of banishement, cast him out of paradise in order that, having punishment expiated within an appointed time, and having been disciplined, he should afterwards be recalled…just as a vessel, when one being fashioned it has some flaw, is remoulded or remade that it may become new and entire; so also it happens to man by death. For he is broken up by force, that in the resurrection he may be found whole; I mean spotless, righteous and immortal. –Theophilus of Antioch (168 A.D.)

Wherefore also he drove him out of paradise and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some dare assert, but because He pitied him and desired that he should not be immortal and the evil interminable and irremediable. –Iraneaus of Lyons (182 A.D.)

These, if they will, may go Christ’s way, but if not let them go their way. In another place perhaps they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism, which is not only painful, but enduring also; which eats up, as if it were hay, all defiled matter, and consumes all vanity and vice. –Gregory of Nazianzeu, Bishop of Constantinople. (330 to 390 A.D.) Oracles 39:19

The Word seems to me to lay down the doctrine of the perfect obliteration of wickedness, for if God shall be in all things that are, obviously wickedness shall not be in them. For it is necessary that at some time evil should be removed utterly and entirely from the realm of being.—St. Macrina the Blessed

In the end and consummation of the Universe all are to be restored into their original harmonious state, and we all shall be made one body and be united once more into a perfect man and the prayer of our Savior shall be fulfilled that all may be one. –St. Jerome, 331-420

For it is evident that God will in truth be all in all when there shall be no evil in existence, when every created being is at harmony with iteself and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; when every creature shall have been made one body. –Gregory of Nyssa, 335-390

The wicked who have committed evil the whole period of their lives shall be punished till they learn that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when, by this means, they shall have been brought to fear God, and to regard Him with good will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of His grace. –Theodore of Mopsuestia, 350-428

We can set no limits to the agency of the Redeemer to redeem, to rescue, to discipline in his work, and so will he continue to operate after this life. –Clement of Alexandria

Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless eons (apeirou aionas) in Tartarus. Very properly, the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. But we say that the soul is punished for an aionion period (aionios) calling its life and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon. –Olnmpiodorus (AD 550)

Wherefore, that at the same time liberty of free-will should be left to nature and yet the evil be purged away, the wisdom of God discovered this plan; to suffer man to do what he would, that having tasted the evil which he desired, and learning by experience for what wretchedness he had bartered away the blessings he had, he might of his own will hasten back with desire to the first blessedness …either being purged in this life through prayer and discipline, or after his departure hence through the furnace of cleansing fire.–Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.)

That in the world to come, those who have done evil all their life long, will be made worthy of the sweetness of the Divine bounty. For never would Christ have said, “You will never get out until you hqave paid the last penny” unless it were possible for us to get cleansed when we paid the debt. –Peter Chrysologus, 435

I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures. –St. Jerome

“In the end or consummation of things, all shall be restored to their original state, and be again united in one body. We cannot be ignorant that Christ’s blood benefited the angels and those who are in hell; though we know not the manner in which it produced such effects. The apostate angels shall become such as they were created; and man, who has been cast out of paradise, shall be restored thither again. And this shall be accomplished in such a way, that all shall be united together by mutual charity, so that the members will delight in each other, and rejoice in each other’s promotion. The apostate angels, and the prince of this world, though now ungovernable, plunging themselves into the depths of sin, shall, in the end, embrace the happy dominion of Christ and His saints.” – COMMENTARY ON THE NEW TESTAMENT – Jerome (347-420 A.D.)

Our Lord is the One who delivers man [all men], and who heals the inventor of evil himself. — Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church

While the devil thought to kill One [Christ], he is deprived of all those cast out of hades, and he [the devil] sitting by the gates, sees all fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Saviour.–Athanasius, the Great Father of Orthodoxy

Our Lord descends, and was shut up in the eternal bars, in order that He might set free all who had been shut up… The Lord descended to the place of punishment and torment, in which was the rich man, in order to liberate the prisoners. –Jerome

In the liberation of all no one remains a captive! At the time of the Lord’s passion the devil alone was injured by losing all the of the captives he was keeping. –Didymus, 370 AD

While the devil imagined that he got a hold of Christ, he really lost all of those he was keeping. –St. Chrysostom, 398 AD

Nice try, wrong again!
In Acts 3:21, The period of restoration of all things - Peter is not saying all souls will be restored or saved as is taught in the false doctrine of Universalism.
All souls "in Christ" have been regenerated and given eternal life.
Listen to what Jesus said, Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
John 8:24

Death is the judgment, physical destruction ( which we all suffer from) and spiritual destruction (which we are saved from -- that is those who believe - "in Christ").

The period of restoration ( restitution) of all things is a reference to the future earthly reign of Christ, the Millennial Kingdom. The kingdom will be marked by peace, joy, holiness, the revelation of God's glory, comfort, justice, knowledge of the Lord, health, prosperity, and freedom from oppression.

This is consummation of the ages and the return of Christ, all things will be "restored" to their original perfection as in the Garden of Eden in the Millennial Kingdom, when Evil is finally put down.
In other words, a theocratic restoration and physical restoration -- Paradise reborn.
Realize that we are actually saved from death! If death on the end was canceled out completely, what are we saved from?
Universalism is a false doctrine!
Jesus is the Savior of those who believe in Him, not for anyone else. He said it numerous times.


Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting (age-lasting or age-during) fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[St. SteVen]

Didn't YOU read my response? Even the devils believe....but they are not saved are they?

Do they have tongues to speak? Do they have knees to bow? Every knee and every tongue!
The ultimate triumph of grace. God forgives his enemies. All his enemies.
Which doesn't mean they get off scot-free. Everyone will answer for their deeds.
Even those who slander our loving God.

The scriptures you brought do not say that anyone will be saved after this life is over.

On the contrary.
What part of "every" don't you understand? Every knee and every tongue!
On earth and in heaven and under the earth. Who did we miss?

You didn't answer the questions. (because you can't?)

- What does under the earth mean in Phil.2:10? (provided below)
- Does the Strong's definition of "acknowledge" mean willingly. or unwillingly? See bottom of post.
- Can anyone say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit? see 1Cor.12:3 (provided below)
- According to Rom.10:9, If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” will you will be saved?
- Did Christ die and return to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living? See Rom.14:9

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting (age-lasting or age-during) fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Check out this new topic. Thanks.

Kolasis - William Barclay

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting (age-lasting or age-during) fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

I'm glad that you at least understand that aionios does not mean eternal. (age-lasting or age-during) as you wrote.
Now if you can understand that kolasis doesn't mean punishment, all the pieces of UR will fit together better.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Death is the judgment, physical destruction ( which we all suffer from) and spiritual destruction (which we are saved from -- that is those who believe - "in Christ").

I like this description. (scripture below)
Does a refiner's fire destroy the precious metal?
Does the launderer's soap destroy the garment?

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

/

 

[amigo de christo]

Well for one thing, horses in scripture signify war.....battle horse. Jesus came the first time riding a donkey, signifying that He came in a spirit of peace and reconciliation and meekness. But not so when He comes again to judge the world...this time He comes to make war against His enemies.


New testament says Noah was a preacher of righteousness. 2 Peter 2:5

The account of Noah did happen literally, but it also speaks spiritual lessons to the church in a parable. It wasn't just written down to give us a history lesson. The scriptures weren't written to be a history book, though things did happen historically, but we are to compare spiritual with spiritual.



That's just more wishful thinking and reasoning.

The bible says even the devils believe, and tremble. (James 2:19) Think it would be blasphemous to suggest that demons have the Holy Spirit and that they are saved.

Our God is a consuming fire....in the end He will "consume" everything that is not hidden in the cleft of the Rock that is Christ, and that therefore can't withstand the fire and shaking and "remain". I mean, isn't that what the scriptures show? Whereas believers go through fire and flood in this life now and are to endure it patiently.....judgment begins with His house..... but we are being forged and purified in it (because Christ is with us in in it), rather than destroyed. The entire bible warns the human race and speaks over and over again of the coming judgment and wrath.....this is kind of oozing from every pore of the bible. Why go to all that trouble to warn and shout and cajole and chastise if in the end it won't matter anyhow....? I mean really...? So many of God's people down through the ages spending and laying down their lives and subjecting themselves to untold suffering to faithfully prophesy and warn of judgment and preach the gospel when in the end it turns out that the gospel isn't needed in the end anyhow? Really?

Rev 3:10-11
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

It strikes me as kind of interesting how the people of the earth will be crying out for the rocks of the earth to cover and hide them from the wrath of the Lamb, after rejecting "the Rock" to be hidden in....?

Seen that my dear sister . MOSES had to be hidden and even then while in the flesh could not SEE the face of GOD .
WHAT was moses hidden in , the cleft of the ROCK . ever wonder why paul says certain things concerning
that ROCK they did drink of , even though at that time the depth of what was coming to those who would later
RECIEVE the DEEP and the depth of that ROCK which at that time was not yet revealed to those at that time .
A great glory was coming . THAT CLEFT moses was hidden within ...............and yet .............though such a glory
though such a glory that it lit up the face of moses , STILL the veil had to be ON HIS FACE while as yet ......
while as yet the WORD had not yet been manifest . STILL the veil remains even with the reading of the law
unto those who still hear not and see not , BUT THE VEIL WILL BE REMOVED when ONE COMETH TO THE AUTHOR
to the ONE who first revealed but a whisp of glory to MOSES . which veil is done away IN CHRIST .
IT SEEMS MANY things POINT TO JESUS . DONT IT . a far greater glory than that which was first revealed .
Ever wonder why FIRST GOD said to MOSES , TELL THEM I AM SENT THEE
and that was THE NAME GOD USED . and yet later JESUS said before abraham was IAM
and NOTICE JESUS says , I HAVE REVEALED , MANIFESTED , YOUR NAME UNTO THEM . YOUR NAME . WHOSE NAME
GODS NAME . a far greater glory was coming than that which even moses , the law showed .
IN FACT the very law , the very glory of that was to one day be done away IN CHRIST . YET THESE TURKEYS
want to point us TO UNIVERSALISM . when even the law , MOSES and the prophets POINTED TO JESUS CHRIST .
THIS LAMB STAYINGGLUED TO THE GLORY OF GOD .
WHO IS the GLORY OF GOD one might ask . GOD HIMSELF says MY GLORY will i not give to another .
WHO IS THIS GLORY I SPEAK OF ..........as well as did the law, moses and the prophets . WELL IT SURE AS HECK wasnt FALSE UNIVERSALISM .TO THE BIBLE WE GO FOR THE ANSWER .
AND GOD DID LIGHTEN IT . AND THE LIGHT IS THE GLORY OF GOD . JESUS IS THE GLORY OF GOD .
JESUS IS THE GLORY OF GOD . universalism and mens false hopes WILL NEVER BE THE GLORY OF GOD
WILL NEVER BRING OR GIVE GLORY TO GOD . POINTING TO JESUS GLORIFIES GOD . BINGO . BINGO . WE GONNA
POINT TO JESUS SISTER , these other folks can keep their false universalism that honors not , glorifies not
BUT RATHER TRODS UNDER FOOT THE GLORY OF GOD . WHICH IS JESUS CHRIST .

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Now if you can understand that kolasis doesn't mean punishment, all the pieces of UR will fit together better.

I don't think kolasis in Matthew 25:41 means punishment in the sense that a lesson is learned. I think it is a severe judgment where death of both body and soul is given. So it means destroyed.
He says, "Depart from me, you accursed, INTO THE FIRE ..." Does that sound like a a slap on the hand. What is He saying, "Just stick you hand in the fire for a hot second ... you bad boy ... that will teach ya!"
I don't think you understand what death is. Universalism seems to imply there is no such thing as death ... really ... just temporal punishment ... maybe you think Hades is a Purgatory of sorts. I wouldn't have a problem with that view if the Bible actually claimed that.
No, I think the problem you have is with sin, likely in the arena of the LGBT, since you have defended that lifestyle numerous times. And so if Universalism is true, then you're good to go and live however. You really need to make sure though with all these repeated threads and posts. Tou want to get everyone else on board, but they the won't budge. Only 2-3% if Christianity

I like this description. (scripture below)
Does a refiner's fire destroy the precious metal?
Does the launderer's soap destroy the garment?

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

/

He'll refine the Jews and all who endure the Great Tribulation, but death is real - just as it is the end of physical life, so shall it be thr end of the soul and spirit for many.

 

[St. SteVen]

I don't think kolasis in Matthew 25:41 means punishment in the sense that a lesson is learned. I think it is a severe judgment where death of both body and soul is given. So it means destroyed.
He says, "Depart from me, you accursed, INTO THE FIRE ..." Does that sound like a a slap on the hand. What is He saying, "Just stick you hand in the fire for a hot second ... you bad boy ... that will teach ya!"

What do you make of this?

1 Corinthians 3:15 NIV
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

I don't think you understand what death is. Universalism seems to imply there is no such thing as death ... really ... just temporal punishment ... maybe you think Hades is a Purgatory of sorts. I wouldn't have a problem with that view if the Bible actually claimed that.

There are two kinds of death. Physical death and spiritual death.
The wages of sin is death. Jesus paid the death penalty for all of humankind on the cross.
Do you disagree?

No, I think the problem you have is with sin, likely in the arena of the LGBT, since you have defended that lifestyle numerous times.

Seriously? Defended the LGBT lifestyle? I did no such thing.
My problem was with the way the church is handling the LGBT issue.

And so if Universalism is true, then you're good to go and live however. You really need to make sure though with all these repeated threads and posts. Tou want to get everyone else on board, but they the won't budge. Only 2-3% if Christianity

No, that is not what UR teaches. There are consequences for the way we live.
Most supporters of UR are afraid to be public about it for fear of Christians that respond the way you do.
So, you should multiply your 2-3% x 10 = 20-30% Unless you have some reliable statistics.

I have seen a lot fence riding lately with a push toward Annihilationism AWAY from Damnationism.
Annihilationism of course, is the gateway drug to full-blown Universalism. - LOL

/

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

What do you make of this?

1 Corinthians 3:15

Back up a few verses.

If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

This passage is talking about our works being tested with fire, NOT our souls. The chapter begins addressing young immature Christians who are still living worldly. So a rebuke is needed. Their worldly ways will be burned up.
Ask yourself this:
What rewards will we receive in heaven?
Anything that was done on earth that was spiritually motivated to further God's purpose. Spiritual things, acts of love inspired by God, His works through us, not worldly things that will all burn.

There are two kinds of death. Physical death and spiritual death.
The wages of sin is death. Jesus paid the death penalty for all of humankind on the cross.
Do you disagree?

No, there is a theme of good and evil that is a fabric of human history. The two will be separated some day soon. The same theme reflects believers and unbelievers; the two will be divided by Jesus when He comes. Jesus clearly makes this claim, you are in denial of it. Believers are saved from death, separation from God. Unbelievers will be destroyed, banished from His presence.

Seriously? Defended the LGBT lifestyle? I did no such thing.
My problem was with the way the church is handling the LGBT issue

Is the ability to procreate the only requirement for the "model" marriage?

Can you even imagine how many books we'd need to write the names if every person born? The common sense answer is that Adam and Eve had many children. They were healthy and lived a long time. They likely could have had well over 100 children. Don't forget, they also had Seth after Abel was...

www.christianityboard.com

Other threads: WWJD with LGBT (that was your thread) and "Homosexuality: Wrong or Right" >> of which you contributed 119 posts!
I'd say you feel quite strongly in favor of their movement.

Liberalism is one of the most destructive forces that leads to all sorts of sin. It is this sense of freedom from restraints, God's laws, morality. That I think is a major component of rebelliousness, this pushing away from God's order and laws. Today we see very liberal movements, lawlessness to the point that good means evil and evil means good.
Gov. DeSantis held up a map of San Francisco's human feces that covered the whole city.
San Francisco is just one of the many cities, examples of how destructive liberalism is and where this country is headed.

 

[St. SteVen]

Believers are saved from death, separation from God. Unbelievers will be destroyed, banished from His presence.

Countless billions have never heard the name of Jesus. Yet you have condemned them.
Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Other threads: WWJD with LGBT (that was your thread) and "Homosexuality: Wrong or Right" >> of which you contributed 119 posts!
I'd say you feel quite strongly in favor of their movement.

You counted my posts? - LOL

I can contribute to any topic I choose.
You have failed to prove your slanderous lies against me.
You falsely claimed that I defended the LGBT lifestyle.

/

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Countless billions have never heard the name of Jesus. Yet you have condemned them.
Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Countless billions have been created for a purpose, some for life and some for death. The knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL had unavoidable consequences that God found necessary. Sin needs to be judged.
Get rid of police and penalties for breaking the laws of the land and see what happens.
Liberals like to view God as LOVE only, not as a God of justice and judgment.
YOU STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT DEATH IS, WHAT WE ARE SAVED FROM.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Apparently you are in denial that there are two destinations: Heaven and Hell.
Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.”
Matt. 7:13-14
So yes, billions do not enter into the narrow gate.
I don't judge and condemn people, the One who sits on the Great White Throne will as He has since the beginning. Did you think the Flood of Noah that destroyed hundreds of millions was real or just a myth?

You counted my posts? - LOL

Just to make a point of your passionate efforts for the LGBT cause, which is tied to your hopeful illusion of Universalism, that everyone is eventually forgiven. That makes Grace cheap and devalued if everyone is saved. That makes the thousands of years and lives dedicated to and many martyred for the spreading of the gospel meaningless, devalued as well. What's the point? If everyone gets saved then any or no religion is okay ... believe what you want and live how you want. And a relationship with God in this life ... ah don't worry about it, God forgives all in the end. That is the mindset, it accommodates for any and all kinds of sin, any belief system, any which way you want to go as if all roads lead to Heaven. And apparently, Hades and the Lake of Fire are not really that bad - a re-education camp, Purgatory, a reform school, a second chance.

I can contribute to any topic I choose.
You have failed to pfrove your slanderous lies against me.
You falsely claimed that I defended the LGBT lifestyle.

You made those numerous defensive claims in those threads that others are aware of and can easily be looked up. What, you want to deny your own points of view? People dig their own holes. When they are cornered, they deny -- a typical liberal defense tactic right out of their play book.
Jesus said we have one life, one death and then the Judgment. We can be certain that our opportunity to reconcile with God occurs in this life only.

Read Romans 1:24-28. These are reprobates. There is no recourse for them. To be fair, GOD gives a person ample opportunities to get with the program - this particular group is judged long before they even die. "He gives them over" ( let's them go, washes His hands of them) to do whatever they chose.
His elect sheep may resist and rebel, but He eventually gets their attention before they die. But certain people are judged severely long before death as an example. Stephen Hawkins was one example. A gifted genius who never acknowledged God and spent his life trying to disprove God and the necessity of God with his theories. He led many astray. God confounds the intellects, the arrogant and prideful.

 

[amigo de christo]

Back up a few verses.

If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

This passage is talking about our works being tested with fire,ot our souls. The chapter begins addressing young immature Christians who are still loving worldly. So a rebuke is needed. Their worldly ways will be burned up.
Ask yourself this:
What rewards will we receive in heaven?
Anything that was done on earth that was spiritually motivated to further God's purpose. Spiritual things, acts of love inspired by God, His works through us, not worldly things that will all burn.

No, there is a theme of good and evil that is a fabric the human history. The two will be separated some day soon. The same theme reflects believers and unbelievers; the two will be divided by Jesus when He comes. Jesus clearly makes this claim, you are in denial of it. Believers are saved from death, separation from God. Unbelievers will be destroyed, banished from His presence.

Is the ability to procreate the only requirement for the "model" marriage?

Can you even imagine how many books we'd need to write the names if every person born? The common sense answer is that Adam and Eve had many children. They were healthy and lived a long time. They likely could have had well over 100 children. Don't forget, they also had Seth after Abel was...

www.christianityboard.com

Other threads: WWJD with LGBT (that was your thread) and "Homosexuality: Wrong or Right" >> of which you contributed 119 posts!
I'd say you feel quite strongly in favor of their movement.

Liberalism is one of the most destructive forces that leads to all sorts of sin. It is this sense of freedom from restraints, God's laws, morality. That I think is a major component of rebelliousness, this pushing away from God's order and laws. Today we see very liberal movements, lawlessness to the point that good means evil and evil means good.
Gov. DeSantis held up a map of San Francisco's human feces that covered the whole city.
San Francisco is just one of the many cities, examples of how destructive liberalism is and where this country is headed.

The man sees things through the lens of universalism . if we read the scrips through the lens of any other gospel
WE WONT SEE nor truly understand. This man you are speaking too , is as many now are
they are at best going through scriptures , picking and choosing parts and then TRYING to use them parts
to then JUSTIFY a lie . WE SHOULD HAVE STUCK TO PREACHING THE TRUE GOSPEL
and all things JESUS did . IF we see and learn scrips through men whose beliefs are in teachings and ideals
that omit the very warnings of CHRIST about damanation and perdition to those who hear and beleived not ,
But rather sit under men who teach things that OMIT things JESUS taught . THEN FOLKS DONT MAKE IT . NO LIE can save .
NO matter how good the lie might seem , ,no matter how caring the lie might seem
No matter how much hope it seems to offer up , A LIE CANNOT SAVE . BUT JESUS CAN . SO HE IS WHO WE POINT TOO
with the constant reminder of BELIEVE YE IN HIM .