Apokatastasis in the early church

[CadyandZoe]

I don't know.
You'll have to ask them. - LOL

I think the questions are MORE important than the answers.
The Jesus of the Bible understands this.

Luke 10:26 NIV
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

/

It seems that your questions are not aimed at gathering information, but rather at creating doubt to support the opposite viewpoint. The current thread is a clear example of this. You seem to be trying to raise uncertainty about the reliability of the scriptures to suggest that they should not be trusted.

What you practice is "raising doubt propaganda." Raising doubt propaganda is a type of propaganda technique that heightens anxiety and/or raises doubt, making it harder to think rationally and easier to draw conclusions that might be counter to logic or common sense.

Your argument can be summarized as follows: worshipping anyone or anything other than God is considered as idolatry. Additionally, studying and trusting solely in the Bible can be viewed as worshipping the Bible. Therefore, the conclusion that can be drawn from this is that one should not rely solely on studying or trusting the Bible.

An example of "raising doubt propaganda" is found in the opening chapters of Genesis.

Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?”

 

[Lizbeth]

N

So the church was a house of cards that collapsed in the next generation?

/

No, because God always keeps for Himself a remnant. In the meantime wolves and error is all allowed by God.....we are tested by such things and when we are younger in the Lord are prone to being blown around by every wind of doctrine.....but we need to grow out of depending on 'mother church' and learn to rely on God. "Whom does He teach knowledge...them that are weaned from the breast."

 

[marks]

Why do people feel the need to make a big deal out of asking questions?

Hubris, I think.

Much love!

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Is that a fact? - LOL
Jesus taught you not to fall for this line of reasoning? How so?

I take issue with your approach to discussion, which begins with leading questions intended to cause doubt and uncertainty, especially about the existence of God, the nature of God, the reliability of the scriptures, and the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ.

That doesn't explain your claim that Jesus taught you not to fall for this line of reasoning.
Sounds more like a personal problem.

Not sure why you object to me asking questions. You don't answer them anyway.
What difference does it make to you?

/

 

[St. SteVen]

You attack me and those like me who believe what the Bible says as written, because the Bible describes God as a God of wrath.

My intention is to challenge your thinking. Attack is more your style. IMHO

You stubbornly refuse to accept or acknowledge the fact that the one true living God is a god of wrath and that he will punish and destroy those who practice unrighteousness.

Maybe the god of your making is just in need of some anger management therapy?
I thought patience was an aspect of the Fruit of the Spirit.
Should be an abundant supply. What went wrong?

Yes, God's love is perfect. But so is his justice. He will repay his adversaries with wrath...

Anyone who claims they hate God hasn't met him yet.
This issue is easily solved by any reasonable being, There is no need to incinerate them.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

It seems that your questions are not aimed at gathering information...

It's called a discussion. Something you seem to lack the skills for.
If you actually had answers, the questions wouldn't be so daunting.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

No, because God always keeps for Himself a remnant.

Another ugly aspect of predestination doctrine.
As if God's masterful plan for humankind created in his image
was to hand select a few undeserving souls from the countless billions
that he would rescue while he incinerates the rest.

As that how the remnant works?

/

 

[Wick Stick]

Although I haven't read much of Aristotle's works myself, I've read a few papers on his philosophy by Stanford scholars. Yesterday, I searched the internet for comparisons between Aristotle and Paul, and I realized how little is known about Paul's teachings, beliefs, mindset, and worldview. These scholars may be well-versed in Aristotle's philosophy, but they have limited knowledge about Paul.

I love the fact that you went and looked it up. That's awesome.

Aristotle and Paul had contrasting viewpoints. Aristotle's main emphasis was on analyzing the existing reality and comprehending its essence. In contrast, Paul discusses a future event in 1 Corinthians 15, where he portrays a profound transformation in human nature. It's worth noting that Paul didn't derive this idea from Aristotle. Instead, he claims that he received it directly from God himself.

I agree that Aristotle doesn't write anything about resurrection... the Greeks believed in transmigration, which is similar but different from resurrection, in important ways.

It is important to note that Paul does not assign the transformation "we shall all be changed" to all of humanity as a general statement, despite what was said earlier. In other parts of his writing, Paul identifies the chosen as those who are "in Christ" and who will be raised with him. Speaking about those people who are "in Christ", Paul outlines their inheritance in Ephesians chapter 1.

Ephesians 1:11-14

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.​

As we see here, salvation is not granted universally to all human beings, but only to those who have been predestined according to his purpose. He is granting salvation to those who have been sealed with the Holy Spirit as an earnest or a pledge of their inheritance.

I think you might be talking to St Steven here rather than myself... I don't hold any strong beliefs about universal salvation or eternal punishment. I lean towards annihilation, but I'm not dogmatic about it.

Anyway, Paul doesn't borrow doctrine directly from Aristotle. But he does weigh in on the question of motives, and whether they come from the psyche/soul or pneuma/spirit... and that question was originally framed by Aristotle. To put it succinctly, Paul uses Aristotle, but he doesn't plagiarize Aristotle.

 

[CadyandZoe]

My intention is to challenge your thinking. Attack is more your style. IMHO

Yes, that is exactly what I am doing. I am just simply attacking your position. I noticed that you initiated a discussion in the Bible study section of a forum that is exclusively meant for Christians. However, you have publicly stated that you do not believe in the God of the Bible and have also expressed your lack of faith in the reliability of the Bible. Given these circumstances, I am not sure why this post was not relocated to a non-Christian discussion forum.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It's called a discussion. Something you seem to lack the skills for.
If you actually had answers, the questions wouldn't be so daunting.

I disagree. Your thread is not a discussion. It's propaganda disguised as a discussion. The questions you ask are deliberately chosen as the means to dissuade others from placing hope in Jesus Christ, confidence in the reliability of the scriptures, and the fear of God.

 

[marks]

I disagree. Your thread is not a discussion. It's propaganda disguised as a discussion. The questions you ask are deliberately chosen as the means to dissuade others from placing hope in Jesus Christ, confidence in the reliability of the scriptures, and the fear of God.

Just so.

Much love!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The argument in support of the ECF's reliability is based on the assumption that they are trustworthy sources of information due to their proximity in time and location to the Apostles. However, I disagree with this assumption since the New Testament epistles were written to people who were even closer in time and location than the ECF's, yet these earlier Christians still required Apostolic correction. Therefore, proximity alone cannot guarantee reliability.

I believe that the Early Church Fathers (ECF) made mistakes because they interpreted the Apostolic writings based on the philosophy of Greek philosophers like Plato and Philo. Today, we still struggle with the consequences of those mistakes as we work hard to undo the false doctrines passed down from the ECFs.

I have found that It is easier and less work to study the writings of the Apostles myself and learn directly from them.

The so-called Early Church Fathers weren't actually Fathers and these men have nothing to offer me.

Yes. First and foremost we need to learn from SCripture. We filter all pastors and writers through the lens of Scripture.

There is much to learn from the early church fathers, but we must remember as you pointed out, they are but men. We all make mistakes. some are based on lack of knowledge, some out of arrogance or some based on our own personal biases and worldview on a subject.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Another ugly aspect of predestination doctrine.
As if God's masterful plan for humankind created in his image
was to hand select a few undeserving souls from the countless billions
that he would rescue while he incinerates the rest.

As that how the remnant works?

/

What's wrong with that? What is your actual objection? Why can't you simply argue your point? Yes, it is true. God hand-selected a few undeserving souls from the countless billions to rescue them while he incinerates the rest. Does that bother you? Why does it bother you? Do you know why it bothers you? I suspect I know why. But do you?

 

[Lizbeth]

Another ugly aspect of predestination doctrine.
As if God's masterful plan for humankind created in his image
was to hand select a few undeserving souls from the countless billions
that he would rescue while he incinerates the rest.

As that how the remnant works?

/

We shouldn't try to think and reason these things like a man when God's ways and thoughts are higher than man's. Man's thoughts and reasonings are man-centred and puts man at the pinnacle and centre of everything where only God should be. It's why man essentially accuses God of being unrighteous for judging justly.

We only know in part, but the scripture does say we are elect according to His FOREKNOWLEDGE. He saves those who are FOREKNOWN by Him. And who are we "oh men to talk back to God" anyhow....doesn't He have the right to make vessels for various uses as He sees fit - some to honour and some to dishonour? The wonder and great mercy to me is that He saves any at all. What is man that He is mindful of us? One thing about man being made in God's image means He is the only one with the ability and right to properly judge man, it doesn't obligate Him to save every man. Salvation and eternal life has always really only been about the relative few. A great King chooses His bride out from among all the potential candidates. Everyone has been given a gift of life on this earth for a little while like the beasts of the earth, and most apparently will die like them too without inheriting eternal life. It's God's perogative to create and do what He wills with what He has created. The Lord God Almighty doesn't exist for man, man exists and was made for God.

When we are infants and children we are self-centred but as we grow we need to start realizing that we are not the end all and be all and that this isn't all about us after all, and stop believing that man is entitled.

 

[St. SteVen]

Thanks for your response.
You bring all the expected apologetics that whitewash the horrible view we have of God.

We shouldn't try to think and reason these things like a man when God's ways and thoughts are higher than man's. Man's thoughts and reasonings are man-centred and puts man at the pinnacle and centre of everything where only God should be.

God gave us a conscience to know right from wrong.
This should tell us that view of God we are being offered is dead wrong,
We pacify ourselves by saying his ways are higher than our ways, beyond our understanding...
When we know full well that if a human acted this way we would lock them up and throw away the key!

We only know in part, but the scripture does say we are elect according to His FOREKNOWLEDGE. He saves those who are FOREKNOWN by Him. And who are we "oh men to talk back to God"

Right. Shut up and bow to the tyrant before he incinerates you.
A god like that is NOT to be trusted.

anyhow....doesn't He have the right to make vessels for various uses as He sees fit - some to honour and some to dishonour? The wonder and great mercy to me is that He saves any at all. What is man that He is mindful of us?

Another pacifying thought. Which is not pacifying at all except to those who believe they are safe from such a horrible fate.
I got mine. To hell with everyone else.

One thing about man being made in God's image means He is the only one with the ability and right to properly judge man, it doesn't obligate Him to save every man.

If we have the ability to judge men, we certainly have the ability to evaluate the view of God given to us that doesn't even meet God;s standard for humankind.

Salvation and eternal life has always really only been about the relative few. A great King chooses His bride out from among all the potential candidates.

We take a stand in politics to protect the innocent, but then believe in a God who cares not for all of human life.
What becomes of the brides that the king rejects? Does he incinerate them?

Everyone has been given a gift of life on this earth for a little while like the beasts of the earth, and most apparently will die like them too without inheriting eternal life.

Thus reducing humankind created in God's image to a beast of the field?

It's God's perogative to create and do what He wills with what He has created. The Lord God Almighty doesn't exist for man, man exists and was made for God.

Sounds like the playground bully of the universe. He can do what ever he wants. None can stop him.

When we are infants and children we are self-centred but as we grow we need to start realizing that we are not the end all and be all and that this isn't all about us after all, and stop believing that man is entitled.

No regard for human rights? Entitled to nothing?

/

 

[Lizbeth]

Thanks for your response.
You bring all the expected apologetics that whitewash the horrible view we have of God.

God gave us a conscience to know right from wrong.
This should tell us that view of God we are being offered is dead wrong,
We pacify ourselves by saying his ways are higher than our ways, beyond our understanding...
When we know full well that if a human acted this way we would lock them up and throw away the key!


Right. Shut up and bow to the tyrant before he incinerates you.
A god like that is NOT to be trusted.


Another pacifying thought. Which is not pacifying at all except to those who believe they are safe from such a horrible fate.
I got mine. To hell with everyone else.


If we have the ability to judge men, we certainly have the ability to evaluate the view of God given to us that doesn't even meet God;s standard for humankind.


We take a stand in politics to protect the innocent, but then believe in a God who cares not for all of human life.
What becomes of the brides that the king rejects? Does he incinerate them?


Thus reducing humankind created in God's image to a beast of the field?


Sounds like the playground bully of the universe. He can do what ever he wants. None can stop him.


No regard for human rights? Entitled to nothing?

/

I believe we badly need to honour the Lord as God. That is where we need to start.

Scripture says this:

Psa 49:6-15


They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;

None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

(For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever)

That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption.

For he seeth that wise men die, likewise the fool and the brutish person perish, and leave their wealth to others.

Their inward thought is, that their houses shall continue for ever, and their dwelling places to all generations; they call their lands after their own names.

Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.

This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah.

Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.

But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.



Psa 49:16-20


Be not thou afraid when one is made rich, when the glory of his house is increased;

For when he dieth he shall carry nothing away: his glory shall not descend after him.

Though while he lived he blessed his soul: and men will praise thee, when thou doest well to thyself.

He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light.

Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.


2Pe 2:12

But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

What does it mean to perish? Because according to Jesus and the whole bible, both old and new testaments, that is what awaits those who don't know Him and who He doesn't know. The wages of sin is death. I can't see any way around that, other than wishful thinking from a human perspective. It's not my wish to that anyone would perish, nor the Lord's......yet the word clearly says many will perish. That's why He has provided the Way of salvation for whosoever will, and that's why many are willing to lay down their lives to preach the gospel. Sadly we know that not everyone will accept and receive it though.

 

[St. SteVen]

What does it mean to perish?

Everything will perish. The perishable will take the imperishable.

What does it mean to perish? Because according to Jesus and the whole bible, both old and new testaments, that is what awaits those who don't know Him and who He doesn't know.

The omniscient one knows everyone. Did he not know each one in the womb?

The wages of sin is death. I can't see any way around that, other than wishful thinking from a human perspective.

Jesus paid the death penalty for all of humankind.

It's not my wish to that anyone would perish, nor the Lord's......yet the word clearly says many will perish.

May his will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. The will of humankind cannot thwart the will of God.
There is nothing we can do to undo what only God could do in the first place.

That's why He has provided the Way of salvation for whosoever will, and that's why many are willing to lay down their lives to preach the gospel.

Countless billions have never heard. Are they damned?

Sadly we know that not everyone will accept and receive it though.

Not everyone had a chance. Nothing is left to chance.
Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge Jesus as Lord,
on earth, in heaven and under the earth. (in the realm of the dead)

/

 

[Lizbeth]

Everything will perish. The perishable will take the imperishable.


The omniscient one knows everyone. Did he not know each one in the womb?

Jesus paid the death penalty for all of humankind.

May his will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. The will of humankind cannot thwart the will of God.
There is nothing we can do to undo what only God could do in the first place.


Countless billions have never heard. Are they damned?


Not everyone had a chance. Nothing is left to chance.
Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge Jesus as Lord,
on earth, in heaven and under the earth. (in the realm of the dead)

/

You are ignoring and not addressing the point of my post and the scriptures I brought. What does it mean to perish like the beasts? It means no eternal life, like animals aren't given eternal life.

Everything will perish. The perishable will take the imperishable.

Only for those who are granted eternal life - that is how our bodies are redeemed (of those who are redeemed from among men).

The omniscient one knows everyone. Did he not know each one in the womb?

There is more than one sense of "knowing". Are you even being honest at all, or are you spiritually blind to what the scriptures teach? Jesus said many are going to hear, "Away from me I never knew you" on the day of the Lord.

Jesus paid the death penalty for all of humankind.

Yes He did. He built the ark but not all are willing to get aboard sadly. And do you know that not all are "appointed to eternal life" therefore? Have a read of these scriptures:

Act 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained (appointed) to eternal life believed.

1Th 5:9-10
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

1Pe 2:8
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

May his will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. The will of humankind cannot thwart the will of God.
There is nothing we can do to undo what only God could do in the first place.

And yet the apostle wrote that God is willing to make His wrath known and that He has created some to be vessels of His wrath. Go figure. Based on His foreknowledge of who would reject His Son or be willing to receive Him, I believe. The Lord is omniscient and sovereign over everything - He knows the end from the beginning and has taken it all into account and "gone before" as it were. That is how I understand it up to now at least, though we only know in part.

Countless billions have never heard. Are they damned?

First of all the apostle wrote that men are without excuse. Because what may be known of God has been made known to them. It is written in creation itself. And God's arm is not too short to save those He foreknows. In places that are unreached with the gospel He saves people without a human messenger, through dreams, visions etc. There are many testimonies of this. No one who is appointed to salvation will be left out.

Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge Jesus as Lord,
on earth, in heaven and under the earth. (in the realm of the dead)

Yes, but many to their shame and regret when it is too late, sadly! Weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[amigo de christo]

Its pretty obvious that all things are not restored.

Notice that you are in a body that is going to die?
So, is that "the restoration of all things"

Notice that unbelievers are still sinning, the world is still EVIL..... and unbelievers are still going to hell, every day.....

"restoration of all things"?

Not quite.

Me thinks many folks forget its all things IN CHRIST . not that which is outside . that will be destroyed .
folks often use phrases they know nothing about in order to justify THEIR OWN TEACHING or mindset .
Paul once wrote and said for ALL MEN have not faith . so by their intrepation this would mean NO MAN HAS FAITH .
when in truth paul is simpley saying , NOT EVERYONE has faith . See .
Many folks believe in many things and they will use the scrips to verify what they believed or believe to be truth .
THUS they wrest the scrips unto only their own destruction . Exactly my friend .
example . many teach the scrips from the universialist view . THAT is bad news .
or others read it from the PROSPIERTY point of view , again bad news .
We should have just read them and believed and let GOD FORM the TRUTH in us , rather than
the many who formed the TRUTH into what they wanted or beleived it to be . IT WONT bode well for those who did the latter .
But thanks for exposing this my friend .

 

[amigo de christo]

You are ignoring and not addressing the point of my post and the scriptures I brought. What does it mean to perish like the beasts? It means no eternal life, like animals aren't given eternal life.


Only for those who are granted eternal life - that is how our bodies are redeemed (of those who are redeemed from among men).


There is more than one sense of "knowing". Are you even being honest at all, or are you spiritually blind to what the scriptures teach? Jesus said many are going to hear, "Away from me I never knew you" on the day of the Lord.


Yes He did. He built the ark but not all are willing to get aboard sadly. And do you know that not all are "appointed to eternal life" therefore? Have a read of these scriptures:

Act 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained (appointed) to eternal life believed.

1Th 5:9-10
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

1Pe 2:8
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.


And yet the apostle wrote that God is willing to make His wrath known and that He has created some to be vessels of His wrath. Go figure. Based on His foreknowledge of who would reject His Son or be willing to receive Him, I believe. The Lord is omniscient and sovereign over everything - He knows the end from the beginning and has taken it all into account and "gone before" as it were. That is how I understand it up to now at least, though we only know in part.


First of all the apostle wrote that men are without excuse. Because what may be known of God has been made known to them. It is written in creation itself. And God's arm is not too short to save those He foreknows. In places that are unreached with the gospel He saves people without a human messenger, through dreams, visions etc. There are many testimonies of this. No one who is appointed to salvation will be left out.


Yes, but many to their shame and regret when it is too late, sadly! Weeping and gnashing of teeth.

There is that which seemes right unto a man but the end thereof is death . Slippery slopes indeed my dear sister .
You do realize what the problem is ...............
When one learns the scriptures through ANOTHER LENS , a desire to make the scrips fit their own teaching or idea of what
THEY want to beleive as truth , BAD NEWS .
Many read the scrips through the views of what THEY wanted TO BELEIVE was the TRUTH
rather than to simply LEARN TRUTH , they twist and fit the scrips to suit THEIR OWN BELIEF of what THEY wanted truth to be .
THAT WONT BODE WELL at all either .
example . many run to Universalism inclusivism and that is how they learned . BAD NEWS .
When we read the scrips through the lenses of men who gave us our own desires and made for us own our truth
ITS ALL BAD NEWS . the end of that is the second death .
But many love a lie and do reject the truth . They form from twisted scriptures their own golden bull o truth to be their god .
BUT that bull cannot save . and all who danced to that bull will find only the grave . We need to simply learn
the bible for ourselves . cause as you already have known , MY GOODNESS its a PRETZEL MADHOUSE of twisted doctrines
ALL Over christendom now .