Apokatastasis in the Bible

[St. SteVen]

It was not made for them,, It was made for satan and his angels..

So you admit that God created hell. Now we are getting somewhere.

 

[St. SteVen]

It al;so says no one has an excuse.. that is everyone (romans 1)

No excuse for what?
For not acknowledging the creator in creation. Nothing to do with salvation.
Where is the gospel message in creation? What's to reject?

 

[Episkopos]

Well epi has a false gospel. He thinks he will make himself righteous and earn heaven. so that is my beef with him.

This is false and backwards. The only people that I see claiming to be righteous are the modern indoctrinated believers. It wouldn't dawn on unbelievers to claim that. And I am the one pointing out the self-righteousness in those who think their beliefs about Jesus somehow justifies them without any say-so from God. It is all assuming and presuming...just like the Pharisees did who claimed they were followers of Moses.

My worry with you is you keep thinking people believe it is God who torments people forever and ever. when in reality God gave them and out and they passed

Isn't it your position that people who don't believe as you do are eternally tortured by God. Are you not following the status quo religious theories? If not, what happens to unbelievers? What happens to unfaithful believers? Hypocrites?

St. SteVen is a universalist. That means no one gets tortured forever. Didn't you get the memo on that? ;)

 

[St. SteVen]

Again, Your argument falls apart when God died for them

You can;t blame God for people being in hell for eternity when they sent themselves their by refusing to recieve the offer of forgiveness.

We seem to be at an impasse.
Thanks for your participation in the discussion.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen is a universalist. That means no one gets tortured forever. Didn't you get the memo on that? ;)

LOL
My bad. I'll add him to my distribution list.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No excuse for what?
For not acknowledging the creator in creation. Nothing to do with salvation.
Where is the gospel message in creation? What's to reject?

In case you missed it.

Hebrews 11:3-7
By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Do you hear that? According to the Bible, a person cannot receive salvation from God unless they believe in his existence and acknowledge him as someone who rewards those who seek him. For the Gospel message to be comprehensible, one must understand it within this worldview. It seems that you do not possess the appropriate perspective.

 

[St. SteVen]

Here's a related topic for anyone interested. (shameless promotion)

Apokatastasis in the early church

When many hear about Apokatastasis (the restoration of all things), Universalism, Christian Universalism, Universal Restoration, Universal Reconciliation, Ultimate Redemption, Ultimate Reconciliation, UR... There is an assumption that this is a new idea. Something modern liberal theologians...

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[Eternally Grateful]

St. SteVen said:

Doesn't this assume that every individual in every nation, tribe and tongue has had the opportunity?
From my perspective, that's where the argument falls apart.

I'm claiming that not every individual in every nation, tribe and tongue has had the opportunity.
To claim otherwise seems preposterous.

So God is not able to speak to people internally? no matter where they are?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Seriously?
Who created hell?

As I understand it, the Christian hell is the most sadistic torture imaginable.
That God would create a place where humans with full conscious awareness are
in a fire that tortures but does not kill them. And that they remain there for all
eternity with no hope of escape. Cruel and sadistic on a magnitude that
no earthly tyrant has ever come close to.

And this is punishment for not receiving a free gift?
The offer sounds more like extortion to me. Believe or burn.

being seperated from God forever is the most painful punishment ever, because you have no one to blame but yourself. You get to spend eternity thinking about why you said no to God.

Hell was not created for mankind..

once again,

Hell was not created for mankind

 

[St. SteVen]

So God is not able to speak to people internally? no matter where they are?

Well of course, and he does. It's called our God-given human conscience.
Which means @Episkopos is correct. (Romans 2:14-16)

 

[St. SteVen]

being seperated from God forever is the most painful punishment ever, because you have no one to blame but yourself. You get to spend eternity thinking about why you said no to God.

I think the vast majority would be asking, "Who is this Jesus person, and why did he put us here?"

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I don't know of anyone who has rejected what Christ did when he paid the death penalty for our sin.

really? The NT is full of people who rejected him..

What they have rejected is the institutional church that demands payment for the "free gift" of eternal life.

The free gift was paid for by the cross. God himself made payment

If they reject that, They reject God.

In fact, I don't even think it is possible to reject what Christ has done for us. How is that done exactly?
The work of the Atonement was a complete work on our behalf. There is no way to undo that.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Is the "free gift" of salvation really free? - Honestly?

This is the evangelical bait-and-switch. Where's the ethics in that? Should people be tricked into the kingdom? Do we lead someone to Christ and then cut them loose? Nope. They need to be discipled, right? So we pile on the expectations. - Daily Bible reading and prayer. - Regular church...

www.christianityboard.com

How is it done?

God: You are a sinner, Because of your sin, we are separated. yet I have paid your penalty for you on the cross. If you revive me you will live

if you do not you will remain dead

person 1 - I am not a sinner,
Person 2. God is not mean he will not punish me, I am not that bad
Person 3. Thank you God, But I will prove to you I am worthy of being saved by how good I am and all the works I do

all three of these people have rejected Christ.

andf there are many more ways people reject the gospel

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No excuse for what?
For not acknowledging the creator in creation. Nothing to do with salvation.
Where is the gospel message in creation? What's to reject?

No excuse for rejecting God.

when they stand in front of God. they can not say, I did not know you were real. i did not know I was a sinner. I did nto know I deserved to be punished for my sin

 

[St. SteVen]

Hell was not created for mankind

Then why are you pretending to send humankind there?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is false and backwards.

Yes, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God is also the author of life. Both temporal and eternal. We live a temporal life in order to ascertain whether we are suited or allow ourselves to be suited...for an everlasting life.

Your own words condemn you

The only people that I see claiming to be righteous are the modern indoctrinated believers. It wouldn't dawn on unbelievers to claim that. And I am the one pointing out the self-righteousness in those who think their beliefs about Jesus somehow justifies them without any say-so from God. It is all assuming and presuming...just like the Pharisees did who claimed they were followers of Moses.

Yet you claim you are righteous.. come on man.. Stop lieing to yourself

Isn't it your position that people who don't believe as you do are eternally tortured by God. Are you not following the status quo religious theories? If not, what happens to unbelievers? What happens to unfaithful believers? Hypocrites?

My view is what God said.

I am the way the truth and the life, no one enters except through me

What you and others do is your own business..

St. SteVen is a universalist. That means no one gets tortured forever. Didn't you get the memo on that? ;)

I know he is.

but that does not excuse you from leading people down a wrong path

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well of course, and he does. It's called our God-given human conscience.
Which means @Episkopos is correct. (Romans 2:14-16)

No

Human conscious comes from the human spirit

God consciousness comes from a God given spirit.. through many areas, Being spoken to By God himself. through the mediation of others. and through his creation.

And no. Epi is not correct.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Then why are you pretending to send humankind there?

who said I am sending them there?

what kind of Game is this?

 

[St. SteVen]

No excuse for rejecting God.

when they stand in front of God. they can not say, I did not know you were real. i did not know I was a sinner. I did nto know I deserved to be punished for my sin

Is that your final answer?

How would a Muslim, a Hindu, and a Buddhist answer those questions?
Did they know God was real? Did not know they were sinners?
Did they know they needed to be punished for their sin?
If so, they would be saved, right?

 

[St. SteVen]

Human conscious comes from the human spirit

Not as I understand it.

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law,
they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts
sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

[St. SteVen]

who said I am sending them there?

You are claiming that hell was not created for humankind,
but they will send themselves there for refusing a "free" gift. ???