Any body in Heaven ?

[epostle1]

Really? Cultic? I can accept that, as Luther did, as others:

Luther accepted life after death the same as all the early reformers.

It has a bad history; it was introduced by the serpent in Eden, and springs from a heathen philosophy; it is not found in Jewish belief; is a compromise with Platonism; adopted and authenticated by the Church of Rome.

That is a pile of tuarus excretum. "Rome" did not authenticate Original Sin, nor Adam and Eve. They brought PHYSICAL death and disease when they Fell. "innate immortality" was, and is now, a tenent of Judaism. Any Jewish site will verify this. They pray the Kaddish prayers for dead family members for a reason. "Rome" teaches the truth about Original Sin, and the truth about life after death. Romans 5 teaches Original Sin. "Rome" teaches Romans 5. The evidence is there for anyone who wishes to see it. For "Dr." Phelps to claim to have a doctorate, he is not very smart.

It is at variance with the scriptural account of man's creation.

Genesis doesn't give scriptural accounts, it paints scriptural portraits. There is no variance with man's creation whatsoever. Adam and Eve were created by God. They physically died and we inherited the consequences called Original Sin. It is not committed by a conscious choice, therefore it can be removed without a conscious choice.

It clashes with the Bible statement of man's fall.

The Bible statement according to an "infallible" apostate/heretic.

It is opposed to the scriptural doctrine of death.

This looks a lot like John Calvin's confusion of physical death and spiritual death. He mixed them up the same way. What does "doctrine of death" look like?? You don't need doctrines when you are dead.

It is equally opposed to the physiological facts.

see above

Immortality is nowhere ascribed to man in his present state of existance.

This is a logical fallacy. Immortality occurs at conception. The human soul is created by God. Mommy and daddy do their part. The physical body dies, it is the fate of all of us. The soul cannot die because God created it at conception. and it does not go to bed for a zillion years (or until the Second Coming). The statement is analogous to:
"Gasoline is nowhere ascribed to cars in their present state of existence.

It supersedes the necessity of the resurrection.

Another logical fallacy. After we die, we, hopefully, are resurrected BECAUSE CHRIST ROSE FROM THE DEAD

It reduces the judgment scene to a solemn farce.

Am I supposed to believe this "Dr." knows what his judgement scene looks like??? Did he see it or did he just read about it and make mathematical calculations???

subverts the bible doctrine of Christ's second coming.

Then so does baptism. If it were not for the Catholic Church that this "Dr" despises, there would be no "bible doctrine" of anything.

It is a prolific source of error -Mohammedanism, Shakerism, Swedenborgianism, Spiritualism, Purgatory, Mariolatry, Universalism, Eternal-Tormentism.” -

Modernism is the synthesis of all heresies. Purgatory was rejected by the so called reformers for political reasons as a consequence of the misguided "faith alone" doctrine. Mariolatry means Mary worship, Mariology is the study of Mary. Mariolatry has been condemned by the Church and is a heresy. Please don't use the term, it's highly insulting and it reflects the epitome of ignorance and anti-Catholic bigotry.

 

[Triumph1300]

Soul Sleep is another cultic doctrine. No saint sleeps in the dust of the earth. Only his body becomes dust. His soul and spirit go to be with the Lord immediately. (And since Moses was very much awake and alive at the Transfiguration, you got that one wrong also).

But the evidence of Stephen going to Heaven immediately upon his demise is right there. In fact Scripture plainly says THE HEAVENS OPENED.

And that sums it up.

People can twist and turn and argue as much as they want and waste time on it with long "teaching posts",
but it's plain and simple.......being absent from the body is to be with the Lord.

Satan does not like it and uses many people to tell a different story.
I say: "Get behind me satan!"

 

[twinc]

And that sums it up.

People can twist and turn and argue as much as they want and waste time on it with long "teaching posts",
but it's plain and simple.......being absent from the body is to be with the Lord.

Satan does not like it and uses many people to tell a different story.
I say: "Get behind me satan!"

lets forget all the clever claptrap and just simply simply answer 'is there somebody or nobody in heaven - twinc

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

lets forget all the clever claptrap and just simply simply answer 'is there somebody or nobody in heaven - twinc

Yes:

Revelation 12:12 KJB Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.​

[1] God the Father
[2] The Son of God the Father (Jesus)
[3] the many hosts of Heaven (that travel from heaven to earth) (also includes 24 Elders (leaders of the unfallen worlds), 4 Living Creatures (representing all the unfallen worlds), all the unfallen worlds and inhabitants, and the unfallen creatures therein)
[4] Enoch
[5] Moses
[6] Elijah
[7] the firstfruits (resurrected at Jesus own resurrection)
[8] Holy Ghost by omniscience (though He is down here on earth, having been sent)​

all other human beings are on earth, dead (sleeping, righteous and unrighteous) or alive (even if some are sleep walking, thus unrighteous, and the awake living, righteous/saints), and all the fallen angels, including Lucifer are down here on earth.

That's everyone.

 

[twinc]

Yes:

Revelation 12:12 KJB Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.​

[1] God the Father
[2] The Son of God the Father (Jesus)
[3] the many hosts of Heaven (that travel from heaven to earth) (also includes 24 Elders (leaders of the unfallen worlds), 4 Living Creatures (representing all the unfallen worlds), all the unfallen worlds and inhabitants, and the unfallen creatures therein)
[4] Enoch
[5] Moses
[6] Elijah
[7] the firstfruits (resurrected at Jesus own resurrection)
[8] Holy Ghost by omniscience (though He is down here on earth, having been sent)​

all other human beings are on earth, dead (sleeping, righteous and unrighteous) or alive (even if some are sleep walking, thus unrighteous, and the awake living, righteous/saints), and all the fallen angels, including Lucifer are down here on earth.

That's everyone.

I repeat again just simply simply answer is there any body or bodies in heaven - twinc

 

[twinc]

Yes:

Revelation 12:12 KJB Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.​

[1] God the Father
[2] The Son of God the Father (Jesus)
[3] the many hosts of Heaven (that travel from heaven to earth) (also includes 24 Elders (leaders of the unfallen worlds), 4 Living Creatures (representing all the unfallen worlds), all the unfallen worlds and inhabitants, and the unfallen creatures therein)
[4] Enoch
[5] Moses
[6] Elijah
[7] the firstfruits (resurrected at Jesus own resurrection)
[8] Holy Ghost by omniscience (though He is down here on earth, having been sent)​

all other human beings are on earth, dead (sleeping, righteous and unrighteous) or alive (even if some are sleep walking, thus unrighteous, and the awake living, righteous/saints), and all the fallen angels, including Lucifer are down here on earth.

That's everyone.

just simply simply answer is there any body or bodies in heaven - twinc

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Is there any body in heaven - twinc

twinc, we can't talk to you from up here
only those of us here can talk to each other
"Hey Nechbuchanezzar, how's it goin?.........."

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

What do you do with the scripture in the epistles (which are addressed directly to the Church of the body in this grace administration) that state that the dead are dead (asleep) until the return of Christ for the church of the body. …..

Did God contradict Himself?

If this is present tense as you stated (which it’s not ….because New Jerusalem does not take place until Revelation) then the Bible would have to contradict itself.

Keep in mind Hebrews was written to the Christian Jews of the dispersion and is not addressed to the church in the sense that we know the Church established on Pentecost. It is addressed to born again believers, but those who have never walked in the freedom of the new birth, those who are still zealous for the law.

Never heard this last statement before.
Care to elaborate?

 

[Enoch111]

None of this proves soul sleep. My refutation of soul sleep is found in the link in post #32.

Soul Sleep has always been the false doctrine of the cults.

 

[waterlilyoflife]

The scriptures say that the people "fall asleep" when they die, Jesus mentions the "Sabbath Rest." The sabbath rest could be compared to the peaceful sleep of a child in a perfect bedroom, with nothing scary, sweet and good, fun dreams. Or to the fairy tale of Sleeping Beauty, the princess sleeping on a luxurious bed in a castle with everyone Sleeping awaiting her Prince's kiss to wake her up, in this case that prince is the Prince of Peace and Prince of heaven.

Those in hell will be sleeping in a dirty ditch with nightmares. Scary, terrible nightmare dreams they can't wake up from.

Jesus promised we would have everlasting life is we put our trust, our love, our faith and hope in him. We must cast off the old self and be born again. The sleep and rest we get on earth should be pleasant with Jesus. Jesus promised us in His Father's house there are many rooms. He told a parable about a rich man living in luxury and not caring about the poor starving beggar at the gates of his mansion. They both died, the beggar, Lazarus, went to Abraham's bossom and the rich man went to Hades. While suffering torment torment in Hades, the rich man begged Lazarus to dip his finger in cool water and touch his tongue, for he was in great pain. Lazarus aid he could not because there was a vast separation between them. Then the rich man asked Lazarus to g to his house on earth and warn his five living brothers of the danger they were in because of their sins. Lazarus replied that they would not repent even if someone coming back from the dead came to warn them. I think Jesus might have been talking about himself when he said "if someone came back from the dead to warn them."

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

[Image of Jesuit Francis I, which says, "WHAT PART OF "CATHOLICS DON'T WORSHIP MARY" DID YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?]

This part:

“...the Most August Virgin Mary ... this Divine Mother... Yet our manner of praying to the Blessed Virgin has something in common with our worship of God, so that the Church even addresses to her the words with which we pray to God: "Have mercy on sinners." …

[so much for the so-called distinction between what they dogmatically call 'hyper-dulia' and 'latria'. Mental gymnastics of sin, the very rebellious carnal mind will do anything to justify itself, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can be ...]​

… the heavenly choirs, "above whom the Holy Mother of God is exalted." ...” [AUGUSTISSIMAE VIRGINIS MARIAE (August Virgin Mary); ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII ON THE CONFRATERNITY OF THE HOLY ROSARY; SEPTEMBER 12, 1897] - http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/l...2091897_augustissimae-virginis-mariae_en.html & http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13augus.htm​

 

[epostle1]

Misrepresentation is a big word. A half truth is still a lie. Sorry you find praying to God so disturbing. All prayer ends up going to God, and only God may or may not answer. Unfortunately, you cannot understand this because it's contrary to the preconceptions you wholeheartedly believe. You mock "for you know what you do."
If I believe half the lies you do about the CC, I would hate her twice as much as you.

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

Soul Sleep has always been the false doctrine of the cults.

We accept your label. Immortal soul/spirit theology has always been the doctrine of the serpent and pagan, greek, ancestral, animistic, occult and shamanistic religions. Do you accept yours?

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

just simply simply answer is there any body or bodies in heaven - twinc

There are glorified human "bodies" in heaven, of Enoch, Moses, Elijah, the Firstfruits and Jesus.

There is also the glorious body/form of the Father, and all the "celestial" and "glorious" "bodies" of all the Heavenly Hosts (Gabriel, Elders, etc) and those of the unfallen worlds.

Let's just take Jesus' "body" for example:

Philppians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1 Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

(Notice, "spiritual (not spirit) body". A body under the control of the Holy Ghost, submitted to the will of the Father.), for instance, Job said: Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
​

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Revelation 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Revelation 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

Revelation 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

​

Moses and Elijah also:

Luke 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Luke 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.​

Enoch also:

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.​

Angels, etc:

Daniel 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Mark 16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

Ezekiel 10:12 And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and their wings, and the wheels, were full of eyes round about, even the wheels that they four had.​

God the Father:

Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Daniel 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Job 13:8 Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God?

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
​

Then there is also the spiritual application of the "body" (of Christ), seated in the Heavens.

 

[epostle1]

There are glorified human "bodies" in heaven, of Enoch, Moses, Elijah, the Firstfruits and Jesus.

There is also the glorious body/form of the Father, and all the "celestial" and "glorious" "bodies" of all the Heavenly Hosts (Gabriel, Elders, etc) and those of the unfallen worlds.

Let's just take Jesus' "body" for example:

Philppians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1 Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

(Notice, "spiritual (not spirit) body". A body under the control of the Holy Ghost, submitted to the will of the Father.), for instance, Job said: Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
​

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Revelation 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Revelation 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

Revelation 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

​

Moses and Elijah also:

Luke 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Luke 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.​

Enoch also:

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.​

Angels, etc:

Daniel 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Mark 16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

Ezekiel 10:12 And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and their wings, and the wheels, were full of eyes round about, even the wheels that they four had.​

God the Father:

Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Daniel 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Job 13:8 Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God?

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
​

Then there is also the spiritual application of the "body" (of Christ), seated in the Heavens.

According to your way of thinking, and consistency in Ellen White's teaching and interpretation, the woman in Revelation 12:17 is the Whore of Babylon. The only way out of this dilemma is to flip from metaphoric, literal personifications, and/or symbolic, and/or metaphoric, or any combination thereof, all in the same verse. I call it reading the Bible with a chain saw.

Anybody that doesn't accept Ellen White's doctrines loses there salvation.
Even the Pope doesn't have that much authority.