Amillennialism is an obsolete and outdated eschatological fabrication.

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh no, you are in error about that... God Himself put that 'blindness' upon them away from The Gospel...

Rom 11:7-8
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
KJV

Paul was quoting that about God having put the "spirit of deep sleep" upon the majority of Jews from here...

Isa 29:10
10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath He covered.
KJV

Why would God do that to them? Like Paul says in Rom.11:11, it was to provoke the Jews to jealousy, and so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles.

Rom 11:25
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
KJV

Then the above verse Paul is pointing to a mystery that in final, God is going to remove that blindness He put upon the majority of Jews.

Apostle Paul then explains further of how when the blindness is removed in final, then those unbelieving Jews will obtain mercy like the believing Gentiles have...

Rom 11:28-32
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.
KJV

That's actually a very beautiful idea by Apostle Paul. Through the majority of Jews rejecting The Gospel because God blinded the majority of them, by that The Gospel would be offered to the Gentiles with their thus having obtained mercy. And then in final when God removes the blindness He put upon the majority of Jews, they too then will obtain mercy.

Are you claiming that when God blinded the unbelieving Jews in Paul's day that their blindness was permanent in terms of them being blinded the rest of their lives? That seems like what you're saying, but that is not the case since Paul himself wanted to leave some of those who were blinded to salvation.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

You postpone the removal of the blindness of any Jews for at least 2,000 years when the reality is that some of those who were blinded in Paul's day had their blindness removed. So, you are looking at all of this from the wrong perspective.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So yes God wants all to be saved so why do you think He would purposely stand in the way of someone being saved? Scripture can't contradict itself.

It was only temporary so that salvation would then go to the Gentiles who, in turn, would provoke those Israelites to jealousy so that they too would want to be saved. And Paul wanted to lead some of those who were blinded to salvation, which shows that their blindness was not permanent.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

This was Paul talking about those who were blinded in his day and making it clear that they stumbled, but did not fall. They were blinded, but not permanently. They could still be saved. But, first, the gospel had to go to the Gentiles.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sounds like you are trying to reverse what The Bible actually says as written. Hagar represents the children of the bondwoman, per Apostle Paul in Galatians 4, that is clear. And just because unbelieving Jews still exist today who still reject Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah NEVER means they represent Hagar or her son Ishmael.

Instead... the children of Ishmael (Arabs) are jealous... of the Jews, even unbelieving Jews, simply because God's Birthright went through Abraham's son Isaac per HIS Promise, when Abraham's actual firstborn son was Ishmael. One can even still find Arab clerics today talking about that very thing on some of their websites (I just happened upon one of them one day.)

Per Apostle Paul in Romans 11, he showed that God has placed the "spirit of stupor" upon the majority of his brethren the unbelieving Jews so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. Paul then told those of us in Christ to not be conceited in wrongly thinking that God had cast those Jews away, because when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, God is going to remove that spiritual blindness against The Gospel that He put upon those Jews. That will only happen at Christ's future 2nd coming. So still, we are NOT to think of those unbelieving Jews as being 'cut off' just yet. And to think so Paul calls being conceited.

Look at you arguing with another Post-trib Premill again. Isn't that hilarious, Davy? Just like you find it to be funny when Amills argue about something?

 

[Davy]

In your view God the bible and Paul contradicted itself, so scripture can't be trusted and has no value.

That's a stupid statement, because all I'm doing is following what the actual Bible Scripture states, so it is not simply "my view", it is Apostle Paul's view.

So you can keep listening to MEN'S SILLY DOCTRINES, but I will listen to Christ through His servant Apostle Paul...

Rom 11:11-15
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
KJV

Rom 11:19-20
19 Thou wilt say then, "The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
KJV

Rom 11:23
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
KJV

Wow! Paul just said above that God is able to GRAFF THE UNBELIEVING JEWS IN AGAIN, "if they abide not still in unbelief"! When will that be?

Does that means that unbelieving Jews today that reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ-Messiah can be forgiven by God IF... they do not still abide in unbelief?? YEP! That's what Apostle Paul just said! And Paul continues to confirm that Biblical FACT in the following...

Rom 11:25-32
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.
KJV

 

[Marty fox]

That's a stupid statement, because all I'm doing is following what the actual Bible Scripture states, so it is not simply "my view", it is Apostle Paul's view.

So you can keep listening to MEN'S SILLY DOCTRINES, but I will listen to Christ through His servant Apostle Paul...

Rom 11:11-15
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
KJV

Rom 11:19-20
19 Thou wilt say then, "The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
KJV

Rom 11:23
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
KJV

Wow! Paul just said above that God is able to GRAFF THE UNBELIEVING JEWS IN AGAIN, "if they abide not still in unbelief"! When will that be?

Does that means that unbelieving Jews today that reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ-Messiah can be forgiven by God IF... they do not still abide in unbelief?? YEP! That's what Apostle Paul just said! And Paul continues to confirm that Biblical FACT in the following...

Rom 11:25-32
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.
KJV

Yes exactly if they abide in unbelief so Paul is putting it on them not God.

The point was that you were saying that God made them not believe. I was saying that they didn't want to believe so God stopped pursuing them. We know this because scripture states that God wants all to be saved so He wouldn't stop someone to be saved because scripture can't contradict itself.

Let the scriptures interpret the scriptures

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's a stupid statement, because all I'm doing is following what the actual Bible Scripture states, so it is not simply "my view", it is Apostle Paul's view.

So you can keep listening to MEN'S SILLY DOCTRINES, but I will listen to Christ through His servant Apostle Paul...

Rom 11:11-15
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
KJV

Rom 11:19-20
19 Thou wilt say then, "The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
KJV

Rom 11:23
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
KJV

Wow! Paul just said above that God is able to GRAFF THE UNBELIEVING JEWS IN AGAIN, "if they abide not still in unbelief"! When will that be?

It has been happening for almost 2,000 years now. Agree? Paul indicated that the ones who were blinded and cut off in his day could be grafted in again (saved) in his day. The gospel had to be preached to the Gentiles first and then the Gentiles would provoke the blinded and cut off Israelites to jealousy so that they too would want to be saved. And that has been happening ever since and will continue until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

The cut off Israelites that Paul led to salvation were grafted in to the olive tree again because they did not continue to abide in unbelief.

Does that means that unbelieving Jews today that reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ-Messiah can be forgiven by God IF... they do not still abide in unbelief?? YEP! That's what Apostle Paul just said! And Paul continues to confirm that Biblical FACT in the following...

Rom 11:25-32
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.
KJV

Right, and do you agree that this has been the case for the past almost 2,000 years up until today?

 

[Davy]

Yes exactly if they abide in unbelief so Paul is putting it on them not God.

The point was that you were saying that God made them not believe.

I DID say that, BECAUSE PAUL SAID IT! Don't you actually read all of people's posts, or do you just read a little and then judge people? Do you do the same... thing with Bible Scripture? Evidently you do! That's the working of a hypocrite, did you know that?

Now I just SHOWED YOU the Romans 11 Scripture where PAUL SAYS GOD BLINDED HIS JEWISH BRETHREN AWAY FROM THE GOSPEL, SO THE GOSPEL WOULD GO TO THE GENTILES! Here it is again, AREY YOU GOING TO READ IT, OR MUST RUN YOUR SILLY MOUTH IN MOCKING STILL?

Rom 11:7-11
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
KJV

 

[Davy]

The cut off Israelites that Paul led to salvation were grafted in to the olive tree again because they did not continue to abide in unbelief.


Right, and do you agree that this has been the case for the past almost 2,000 years up until today?

Nope! You are attempting... to put what Paul said about when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in as already PAST HISTORY, and even though the MAJORITY of Jews in the world today still... REJECT JESUS CHRIST as The Messiah! That's not a righteous game to be playing, trying to bail out your Jewish brethren when the majority of them have yet to convert to Christ Jesus, and won't until their 'blindness' is removed like Paul said...

Rom 11:25-32
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.
KJV

That "fulness of the Gentiles" is still yet to "come in" today.

And this is why Jesus showed about the children of the "Daughters of Jerusalem" in Luke 23 will wish for the mountains to, "Fall on us", and for the hills to, "Cover us", because of the shame they will be in when they see Christ coming in the clouds, and realize they had rejected... The True Messiah Jesus Christ. That will only happen on the day of Christ's future return to Jerusalem. The end of Zechariah 12 also shows the shame of the MAJORITY of orthodox Jews when they see Christ coming in the future, of how each Jewish family will mourn for Him.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nope! You are attempting... to put what Paul said about when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in as already PAST HISTORY, and even though the MAJORITY of Jews in the world today still... REJECT JESUS CHRIST as The Messiah!

No, no, no. No. That's not what I'm saying. I'm telling you, man, your reading comprehension skills are non-existent. It's kind of concerning, honestly. You may need to get checked out to see what causes that. I specifically said "Right, and do you agree that this has been the case for the past almost 2,000 years up until today?" so, how is that saying it is "already PAST HISTORY"? I'm saying it's been an ongoing reality and still is today, so how is that saying it is "already PAST HISTORY"?

Another example of your poor reading comprehension skills is that you said that Amills claim that Justin Martyr is an Amill when no Amill has ever claimed such a thing. How can you miss that we've said many times that he is a Premill who acknowledged that many true Christians disagreed with His Premill view?

What I'm saying about what Paul said is that even in his day some of those who were cut off were grafted back in (saved). But, that's not all I'm saying. Keep reading. He made it clear that some even in his day were grafted back in (I assume you understand that being grafted in is equivalent with being saved) when he said this:

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Paul said that those who were blinded and cut off in his day did not fall (God forbid) but instead stumbled. So, they did not fall beyond recovery. They did not fall to the extent where they could not be saved. That's why Paul said about his fellow Israelites living at that time: "I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them".

So, what I believe is that this process of Israelites being cut off and then having saved Gentiles provoke them to jealousy so that they too would want to be saved has continued since that time and will continue up until the future when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Okay? Can you see here that I do NOT say claim that "when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in as already PAST HISTORY"? It's ongoing history up until the future when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

That's not a righteous game to be playing, trying to bail out your Jewish brethren when the majority of them have yet to convert to Christ Jesus, and won't until their 'blindness' is removed like Paul said...

Why do you act as if none of them have had their blindness removed yet, when Paul said otherwise when he talked about leading some of those who were blinded in his day to salvation? Which means there's no reason to not think that more have had their blindness removed since then as well?

Rom 11:25-32
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.
KJV

That "fulness of the Gentiles" is still yet to "come in" today.

I agree. The Gentiles have been grafted in for a long time, but have not reached their fullness yet.

And this is why Jesus showed about the children of the "Daughters of Jerusalem" in Luke 23 will wish for the mountains to, "Fall on us", and for the hills to, "Cover us", because of the shame they will be in when they see Christ coming in the clouds, and realize they had rejected... The True Messiah Jesus Christ. That will only happen on the day of Christ's future return to Jerusalem. The end of Zechariah 12 also shows the shame of the MAJORITY of orthodox Jews when they see Christ coming in the future, of how each Jewish family will mourn for Him.

They will not be mourning for Him in terms of mourning His death, if that's what you mean. That's what Zechariah 12:10 refers to (Jesus quotes it in relation to people literally seeing Him when He was killed in John 19:37), so it has a different context than verses like Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7. They will be wailing in fear of His wrath (Revelation 6:12-17).

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.