Am I the only one on the planet who understands Romans 7?

[CadyandZoe]

That’s sad to hear about those committing suicide, I always have believed that it’s God in us who achieves the victory?

Agreed. God is the one who achieves the victory. :)

Suicides took place in cult groups that teach "The Higher Life," "Deeper Christian life," or "Entire Sanctification." Some who found that God did not, in fact, endow them with a "second work" eventually developed a profound sense of guilt and Isolation. In a sense, Christianity "didn't work" and some were too ashamed to admit it. No matter how hard they tried, yielding to the Holy Spirit by means of various techniques didn't produce the expected results. Such people were told that they need more faith, or that their faith wasn't strong enough. Eventually, in a profound sense of isolation and loneliness, they took their own life.

As you say, God is at work in us. The Christian life is not a matter of learning the proper techniques or employing the Holy Spirit as if the Holy Spirit were the "force" of Star Wars. True spirituality is NOT about what we do with the Spirit; it is what the Spirit does to us.

 

[Wrangler]

We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands.

With all do respect, I think you are confusing things.

We live by many things; speaking the English (21st century American); drive on RH;, diet & exercise; work and rest; stand by my family, friends and neighbors; follow laws at local, state, national and international laws and regulations; Employer policies; house rules, various philosophies, code of ethics and principles, e.g., early to bed, early to rise ... You get the point.

Regarding righteousness, few would say if I murdered, raped, and stole I'd be righteous.

Now, salvation is a different matter entirely. Ths is a function solely of my lord and savior.

 

[Peterlag]

With all do respect, I think you are confusing things.

We live by many things; speaking the English (21st century American); drive on RH;, diet & exercise; work and rest; stand by my family, friends and neighbors; follow laws at local, state, national and international laws and regulations; Employer policies; house rules, various philosophies, code of ethics and principles, e.g., early to bed, early to rise ... You get the point.

Regarding righteousness, few would say if I murdered, raped, and stole I'd be righteous.

Now, salvation is a different matter entirely. Ths is a function solely of my lord and savior.

The written laws are Israels Law also know as the Mosaic Law. I did not think I had to mention it.

 

[Peterlag]

Everyone knows this.

You really should re read romans 8.

I doubt everyone knows that since the person I wrote it to said they think "in Christ" and "Christ in" are the same.

 

[Peterlag]

So much of this is wrong.
You think you are a bible expert, and yet you er on the trinity , the old nature, and the gentile bride.

So Paul picked up bis cross daily for nothing because he misunderstood that he had no old nature and his spirit was innocent when he did sin.
When you yourself sin, you sin spirit, soul, and body.

I would respond to this if I knew what you're saying other than I'm wrong.

 

[Peterlag]

Yes, I intend to disagree with your position because it is wrong and dangerous. Your claim that we no longer have a sinful nature is unsupported by the scriptures. In fact, according to Paul, our sinful nature is located at the core of our being. He teaches you this in Romans 7. I say dangerous because some Christians, living under this doctrine committed suicide in despair of not achieving "victory."

You have no idea what you are talking about.

I do not believe Paul teaches what you say in Romans 7 because I don't think Paul is addressing the Christian in Romans 7. And I think I stated that very clear. But it's not understood because so many Christians don't know who the Scriptures are talking to. They think Jews, Gentiles, and Christians are all the same and everything applies to everyone and I don't know why they think like that.

 

[Peterlag]

Listen, I can only be taught by the Holy Spirit, as he’s a Living Spirit, who lives in my heart/spirit.

I am being made into the image of Jesus, therefore I walk in the Spirit daily, now, that’s not to say I won’t walk in my old mindset at times, sometimes as I’m sure you know, self can take over?

In the most basic sense, to walk in the Spirit means to live a life that depends on the Spirit's power to (1) grow in godliness, (2) obey God's commands, and (3) experience increasing intimacy with God.

Now, please tell me, how do you walk in the Spirit daily?

Do you experience the power of God at work within you?

I 100% know his power has been transforming me..to become more humble, more patient, more careful with my words to others...he can and does correct us through others, you know in your heart when he does this.

I get real close to the Christ. I use his authority and his faith. At the same time I get real close to God because it's His spirit.

 

[Wrangler]

The written laws are Israels Law also know as the Mosaic Law. I did not think I had to mention it.

You didn’t have to mention it. The point still stands; the relationship between righteousness and the law - as demonstrated in general terms, also applies to the specific application.

 

[Peterlag]

You didn’t have to mention it. The point still stands; the relationship between righteousness and the law - as demonstrated in general terms, also applies to the specific application.

You lost me and I like you so I want to understand what you are saying. Is it that we are still under the Law? Is Romans 3:20 not translated properly?

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I do not believe Paul teaches what you say in Romans 7 because I don't think Paul is addressing the Christian in Romans 7. And I think I stated that very clear. But it's not understood because so many Christians don't know who the Scriptures are talking to. They think Jews, Gentiles, and Christians are all the same and everything applies to everyone and I don't know why they think like that.

Whom Paul addresses has little bearing on the subject because he is giving personal testimony about his own condition. Paul is defending the Gospel against those who claim that obeying the Law is the only means to find favor with God. According to Paul, one can never gain God's favor through obedience because one can never avoid coveting. Paul presents autobiographical information as proof that all human beings, left to themselves, are sinners at the core of their being.

He contrasts the position he held prior to the moment when the Law "came" to the position he held after the Law "came." He says that before the Law "came," he was alive, but after the Law "came," he died. When he says the Law "came," he speaks of an epiphany he had concerning the commandment against coveting. His new enlightened position came about after he allowed himself to come to an honest self-assessment. He admits, in all honesty, that he was coveting all the time.

We have nothing in his writing to suggest that he overcame his coveting or how to overcome it.

Luke 8:15 But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

"Honesty is a crucial quality for those who want to maintain their faith. In Romans 7, Paul displays his honesty and concludes with the gospel by saying, 'Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand, I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.' Paul honestly assesses himself as someone who subjectively serves the Law of God but objectively serves the law of sin. Nevertheless, he has placed his hope in Jesus Christ, who he believes will free him from his body of death."

 

[Scott Downey]

You lost me and I like you so I want to understand what you are saying. Is it that we are still under the Law? Is Romans 3:20 not translated properly?

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Believers in Christ are not under the Law, as in the law of Moses contained in commandments and ordinances, and regulations.
Galatians 4:21

Two Covenants​

21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?

22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are [g]the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

***************************************************************************************

Galatians 5:17-19 New King James Version
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: [a]adultery,
******************************************************************************************

Galatians 3:10

The Law Brings a Curse​

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

 

[Scott Downey]

The fruits of the Spirit is what is important, all must bear good fruit to God. This shows the working and care of God in your life.
The law was all about duty and obligation as in our performance according to commandments, do this, don't do that and the letter of that law kills, as no one can keep the whole law perfectly. So, it was a ministry of condemnation.

Romans 7:4
Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Galatians 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

Galatians 3:13
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”),

 

[Scott Downey]

Ah, the wonderful Abrahamic covenant, righteousness by faith, believing what God has promised, came 430 years before the LAW of commandments written on stone. The LAW was our tutor to bring us to Christ and we are longer under a tutor.
Abraham is the father of us all...

Galatians 3

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The Changeless Promise​

15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God [e]in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Purpose of the Law​

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, [f]kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our [g]tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

 

[Scott Downey]

2 Corinthians 3, says the ministry of condemnation had glory, but the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.
And the glory of that ministry of DEATH, ministry of condemnation passed away. It is no longer in effect, that Old Covenant, it is gone forever.


1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? 2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

The Spirit, Not the Letter​

4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the [a]Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Glory of the New Covenant​

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as [b]by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Romans 7 tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to those who are into or know the law. And then the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about Israel and their Law and how they toy with their flesh. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

1.) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
He's writing to Israel who knew the Law.

2.) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
He's talking about the Jewish women under the Law.

4.) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
He's telling Israel they are now dead to their Law.

5.) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
By the Law he says. He's talking to Israel.

6.) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
He's telling Israel they are delivered from the Law.

7.) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Is the Law sin? Israel had the Law.

8.) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
By the commandment... the Law. He's talking to Israel.

9.) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
The Law and the commandment... Israel.

12.) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Law and commandment. Still about Israel.

13.) ...by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
By the commandment. It's the Jewish Law he's still talking about.

14.) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
The Law... Israel's.

16.) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Still talking about the Law.

17.) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Under the Law.

18.) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Under the Law.

25.) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The flesh was under the Law.

1.) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
No more flesh... Hello!!!

2.) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
No more Law of sin and death. Can you see he has now stopped talking about Israel?

3.) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The Law was weak through the flesh. Why am I the only one who sees this?

4.) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Bingo.

9.) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you...

Hi bro,

Yes, I teach the same understanding as you have given in the OP.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

That is not so much about Israel and the law. It is more about himself and the law. It is very much his own personal experience and what the law means to the individual. Verses 8&9 specifically deal with his introduction to the law and his own sin once he became aware of the law and its meaning.

9.) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

He is talking about himself, not Israel. He was once spiritually alive before he was old enough and mature enough to understand the law. But when the commandment came, that is, when he learned and understood, sin came alive and he died. Hie sinned and he died. He is anthropomorphizing both law and sin.

Paul was not the only Jew under the law. All Israel was under the Ten Commandments until Jesus died for us and was resurrected, then launched His Church of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost.

 

[Wrangler]

You lost me and I like you so I want to understand what you are saying. Is it that we are still under the Law? Is Romans 3:20 not translated properly?

Thanks Peter for giving me the chance to explain myself better. The mosaic law never applied to us Gentiles.

‘Under the law’ is a loaded phrase, a bit esoteric. Compare to the common expression ‘under arrest.’ Although we may not be always ‘under arrest’ the potential is always there.

Generally speaking, to be a Godly man means to do God’s will. OT expression of God’s will is following the law but that only applied to Hebrews. NT expression of God’s will applies to all and is to accept the blood of Christ for the remission of sins. You cannot believe Christ died so we may violate God’s will (aka, commonly,the law - murder, rape perjury) with impunity.

Romans 3:20 is properly translated. I’m sure you are familiar with converses. To say we are not made right by doing what the law commands does not mean we are wrong to not murder, not rape and not commit perjury. Simply put, it is always right to follow God’s will and we cannot be righteous by violating his will (which generally includes following the common moral law - don’t murder, rape or commit perjury)

Romans 3:20

New Living Translation

​

20 For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.

 

[Peterlag]

Thanks Peter for giving me the chance to explain myself better. The mosaic law never applied to us Gentiles.

‘Under the law’ is a loaded phrase, a bit esoteric. Compare to the common expression ‘under arrest.’ Although we may not be always ‘under arrest’ the potential is always there.

Generally speaking, to be a Godly man means to do God’s will. OT expression of God’s will is following the law but that only applied to Hebrews. NT expression of God’s will applies to all and is to accept the blood of Christ for the remission of sins. You cannot believe Christ died so we may violate God’s will (aka, commonly,the law - murder, rape perjury) with impunity.

Romans 3:20 is properly translated. I’m sure you are familiar with converses. To say we are not made right by doing what the law commands does not mean we are wrong to not murder, not rape and not commit perjury. Simply put, it is always right to follow God’s will and we cannot be righteous by violating his will (which generally includes following the common moral law - don’t murder, rape or commit perjury)

Romans 3:20​

​

New Living Translation​

​

​

20 For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.

When I'm writing about Romans 7 I'm writing about the Mosaic Law because I believe Paul is addressing Israel in that chapter. I'm not writing about common laws like don't murder or rape which do not apply to me because it's impossible for a Christian to do such things when they are walking in Christ.

 

[Peterlag]

Whom Paul addresses has little bearing on the subject because he is giving personal testimony about his own condition. Paul is defending the Gospel against those who claim that obeying the Law is the only means to find favor with God. According to Paul, one can never gain God's favor through obedience because one can never avoid coveting. Paul presents autobiographical information as proof that all human beings, left to themselves, are sinners at the core of their being.

He contrasts the position he held prior to the moment when the Law "came" to the position he held after the Law "came." He says that before the Law "came," he was alive, but after the Law "came," he died. When he says the Law "came," he speaks of an epiphany he had concerning the commandment against coveting. His new enlightened position came about after he allowed himself to come to an honest self-assessment. He admits, in all honesty, that he was coveting all the time.

We have nothing in his writing to suggest that he overcame his coveting or how to overcome it.

Luke 8:15 But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

"Honesty is a crucial quality for those who want to maintain their faith. In Romans 7, Paul displays his honesty and concludes with the gospel by saying, 'Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand, I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.' Paul honestly assesses himself as someone who subjectively serves the Law of God but objectively serves the law of sin. Nevertheless, he has placed his hope in Jesus Christ, who he believes will free him from his body of death."

I do not believe Paul is addressing Romans 7 to everyone and yeah it does matter because you think Paul is talking to everyone and I don't. I do not believe we are all sinners. It's Israel in Romans 7 that he's referring to and Israel are not Christians so he's not talking about us.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I do not believe Paul is addressing Romans 7 to everyone and yeah it does matter because you think Paul is talking to everyone and I don't. I do not believe we are all sinners. It's Israel in Romans 7 that he's referring to and Israel are not Christians so he's not talking about us.

Paul doesn't mention Israel in Romans 7. He is talking to "those who know the Law," which is true whether Paul is talking to Jews, Gentiles, or both. Anyone can know the Law, whether Jew or Gentile; if they have access to and read the scriptures. I am a Gentile, and I know about the Law concerning marriage. Even if I didn't know about it, Paul specifies the particular law he has in mind, and he explains it to his readers.

Just because Paul refers to the Law doesn't mean his point is about the Law. In this particular case it isn't. Paul's point concerns justification, i.e. God's favor. According to Paul's objectors, obedience to the Law is the only means to gain justification. Paul argues that Justification is by faith in Jesus Christ and is impossible to attain through obedience to the Law.

His point is not limited to the Jewish people or Israel. His point is universal to all those who seek to gain God's favor through ritual praxis. This includes Christians who think that baptism, prayer, tithing, church attendance, meditation, teaching, giving money to the poor, or any other religious practice will gain God's favor.

This goes for the sacraments also. God is not impressed by those who keep the sacraments. Practicing or keeping the sacraments does not gain God's favor or bring grace or blessing from God.

This goes for the spiritual disciplines also. God is not impressed with the practice of spiritual disciplines. Practicing or keeping the spiritual disciplines does not gain God's favor or bring grace or blessing from God.

This goes for teaching the Bible also. God is not impressed with those who teach the Bible. Teaching the Bible does not gain God's favor or blessing or any other good thing from God.

We are sinners at the core of our being. And those who admit this are being led by the Holy Spirit. Those who refuse to admit this are not being led by the Holy Spirit.