All who are not taken up to meet the Lord in the air when He comes will be left behind and killed.

[Spiritual Israelite]

The following supports what I'm arguing that none of the unsaved dead can rise and be judged until all of the saved have risen and have been judged first.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


The above should be understood like such.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

and the time of the dead---And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life(John 5:29)--- that they should be judged---(Romans 14:10) and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great

and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail---(the timing is involving Revelation 16:17-21 and not Revelation 20:11-15 instead). That's how ch 11 ends. None of it, not even verse 18, has to do with Revelation 20:11-15. The vials of wrath are still taking place after the 7th trumpet has sounded. And verse 19 proves it by comparing to Revelation 16, not Revelation 20.

How can it be the time for involving the judging of the lost dead(Revelation 20:11-15) when the 7th trumpet sounds, when Revelation 11:19 does not support that?

You just go out of your way to deny the truth over and over again. Revelation 11:15-19 describes things related to the second coming of Christ, not 1,000+ years after the second coming of Christ.

In Revelation 11:18 the dead being judged is contrasted with believers being rewarded. The dead are judged in Revelation 20:11-15. Why deny something so obvious?

Revelation 11:15-19 is describing both the physical destruction that will occur when Christ returns at the seventh seal, trumpet and vial and the judgment that will occur right afterwards. There is no basis whatsoever for separating what is described in that passage with what is described in Revelation 20:11-15. Trying to turn the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18 into the judgment of the saved dead instead of the judgment of the lost dead is just completely unreasonable.

The Greek word translated as "judged" in Revelation 11:18 is krinō (Strong's G2919) and is the same word used in Revelation 20:12-13 to describe the judgment of the dead.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged (krino) out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged (krino) every man according to their works.

The same word is also used in the following verses to describe the condemnation of unbelievers:

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn (krino) the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned (krino) already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth (krino) him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge (krino) him in the last day.

2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned (krino) who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge (krino) and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

So, it should be clear that the judgment of the dead described in Revelation 11:18 at the seventh trumpet refers to the condemnation of the dead and that occurs AFTER the thousand years (and Satan's little season) as shown in Revelation 20:11-15. What immediately follows the description of that is the reward that believers will receive at that time which is inheriting the eternal new heavens and new earth.

Beyond all this, we can see that the saved and unsaved are judged at the same time in passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46, so why try to put 1,000+ years between the judgment of the resurrected saved and resurrected unsaved? That is just not taught in scripture. Scripture indicates that the unsaved dead are judged just after the sounding of the seventh trumpet when Jesus returns and that they are judged after the thousand years which places the timing of Christ's return after the thousand years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You have a problem recognizing that when the 7th Trump/Angel sounds earthly time ceases to exist, as is shown in post #58 above

You falsely have billions of people lined up for judgement, and you falsely add an earthly time to the final judgement as if every person that has lived is taking a number and standing in line "Wrong"!

LOL. I agree. I can't stop laughing at the idea of Jesus judging billions of people in real time instead of in timeless eternity with people all taking a number and waiting their turn. Yet, that is basically what Premills believe will happen.

Imagine being towards the end of the line. What are they supposed to do while they're waiting for who knows how long to give an account of themselves? LOL.

 

[Truth7t7]

Let's just apply this in the twinkling of an eye to everything. Now we don't have to explain anything, this in the twinkling of an eye explains everything.

Hey Dave your catching on!

Yes at the Last Trump in "The Twinkling Of An Eye" eternity begins, judgement is complete, wicked to the lake of fire, righteous to the eternal kingdom in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In the twinkling of an eye even. Only per Amil. Even in the beginning God never did any of those things in the twinkling of an eye. Not that He couldn't have. He chose not to.

Amils, such as you, so maybe not Amils, for sure abuse the following by applying it universally to every event, including the GWTJ---1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Let's just apply this in the twinkling of an eye to everything. Now we don't have to explain anything, this in the twinkling of an eye explains everything. Too bad that God through His OT prophets wasn't aware of this in the twinkling of an eye explaining everything He said through them concerning His 2nd advent and what occurs during and after it.

Do you have a better guess as to how long these different things will take? If the changing of bodies of many millions of people only takes a moment to occur, then how long will our being caught up to Jesus take? Can't be long. How long will it take for Jesus to take vengeance on His enemies? Again, it shouldn't take long. Other than the GWTJ, which will happen in eternity, what event related to His second coming that occurs once He comes do you suppose would have to take more than a moment to occur?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Still waiting for any Premill to bravely step up and address the original post. Until then I will assume that you all agree with me and are secretly Amills.

Any Premill that isn't a SDA or have similar beliefs to them, anyway. They agree with Amills that those not taken up to meet the Lord in the air are all killed.

 

[WPM]

How can it be the time for involving the judging of the lost dead(Revelation 20:11-15) when the 7th trumpet sounds, when Revelation 11:19 does not support that?

This exposes the folly of Premil. Where does it say Revelation 20:11-15 is "the judging of the lost dead"? That is another Premil myth promoted to convince the deluded and ignorant, who cannot take the time to search the text and see it is another Premil illusion.

 

[WPM]

The following supports what I'm arguing that none of the unsaved dead can rise and be judged until all of the saved have risen and have been judged first.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

When you place Revelation 20:11-15 together with all the other second coming passages you see that it correlates beautifully with them. In fact, it mirrors them in remarkable detail. You would search in vain to find any Scripture that corroborates the idea of another judgment day 1000 years after the coming of the Lord. Scripture does not divide the judgment of the righteous and the wicked by a protracted period of time. Premillennialism does.

Revelation 20:7-13: “And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison (the abyss or bottomless pit), And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

The great white throne follows the one and only coming of Christ, which sees the removal of the current corrupt heavens and earth. This corresponds with several other Scripture that locates the raising/judging of the dead to the second coming. This is a general judgment when Jesus comes! It doesn't say they are only the unsaved dead anywhere.

Revelation 11:15-18 says: “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.”

The last trump is the time when “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” This is the last trump, which is after the thousand years. It the time when the righteous expressly receive their “reward” and when Christ will “destroy” the wicked. For those that refuse to bow the knee to Christ it will be a time of “wrath.” We see here that there are two parties standing before the same throne receiving two diverse sentences.

Isaiah also speaks of the resurrection of the dead, in Isaiah 26:19-27:1, and also identifies it with the time and events that surround the end of the millennium, saying, “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon.”

The passage declares, “behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.” The Hebrew word used here for slain is ‘harag’ meaning to destroy out of hand, kill, and put to death. The resurrection of the righteous must therefore assuredly happen at the end of the millennium (and Satan’s little season), the time expressly advanced as the time when Satan is finally slain.

There is such an obvious finality to this whole reading that no one could surely argue with any credence that it is speaking of anything other than the end of the world. Moreover, this climactic event also sees the complete destruction of that great enemy of the kingdom of God – that old serpent/dragon Satan and the wicked is once and for all destroyed. The resurrection of the righteous must therefore happen at the end of the millennium (and Satan’s little season), the time expressly

Job testified in Job 14:12-14, “So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.”

Job starts off describing an oft-repeated truth in Scripture that "man" is going to be resurrected in the future. He doesn't stipulate just righteous man, as Premil would want it to say, but "man." He enlarges on this, asking a rhetorical question, "If a man die, shall he live again?" Of course, the answer is obvious: Yes, all men!

Job is (by his own confession) including himself in the resurrection in view. He clearly identifies the great hope of the resurrection of the dead (which expressly here includes himself – an Old Testament saint) and places it at the time when the heavens (and therefore the current earth) pass away and consequently witness the appearance of the New Jerusalem at the last day. The word translated “till” here is the Hebrew word ad that is consistently interpreted “unto” or “even unto” elsewhere throughout the Old Testament. Therefore, we can interpret this passage as saying: “So man lieth down, and riseth not: even unto the heavens be no more.” This shows that the resurrection of the dead occurs at the end of the world at a time after the end of the millennium, not before.

 

[WPM]

Still waiting for any Premill to bravely step up and address the original post. Until then I will assume that you all agree with me and are secretly Amills.

Any Premill that isn't a SDA or have similar beliefs to them, anyway. They agree with Amills that those not taken up to meet the Lord in the air are all killed.

What is new? This is the new norm. Their view has been totally demolished on these forums. There is nothing to bring to the table.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What is new? This is the new norm. Their view has been totally demolished on these forums. There is nothing to bring to the table.

Agree. This verse sums up the Premill arguments and avoidance of Amill arguments on this forum:

Ecclesiastes 1:9 What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.