All eschatological views are correct?

[Truth7t7]

I hear you. It is the spirit of the word that avails us. My default mode though, is the letter of the word.

Is it really, Wah, Wah, Wah, post #150 in response to post #149? :)

 

[marks]

We DO have the firm knowledge that it DOES happen by seeing how Jesus read from Isaiah and stopped “mid sentence” as some say. He stopped at the part that wasn’t to be yet in time.

That Jesus identifies this in one place, that doesn't necessarily give the authority to declare it happens in this other place. Maybe yes, maybe no, but if it's not identified in the Bible, it lacks Biblical authority.

Much love!

 

[CadyandZoe]

I had to start a thread because I want to know why they can’t be all correct and my posts in other threads receive only crickets, like what I say is a complete impossibility.

Why can’t pre, mid and post trib gatherings all be correct? Literal harvests are done in three stages. There’s the first pick of what’s ripe, leaving what’s not yet ripe and ready, then there’s the large haul, then there’s a gleaning.

So why do we think all of Gods harvest absolutely must be gathered at one exact time?

I wanted to respond earlier but my computer ended up in the shop. So I am borrowing Zoe's. :)

There are actually three major gatherings: the rapture of the church; the gathering of faithful Jews to Jerusalem; and the gathering of armies during Armageddon.

Let's take a quick look at Luke chapter 17. Here Jesus is predicting the situations that must take place just before his return. He mentions two groups of people. One group will be whisked away or "taken" away. The other group will need to escape.

30 It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left. 36 [Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left.”] 37 And answering they *said to Him, “Where, Lord?” And He said to them, “Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered.” Luke 17:30-37

Group 1: Those who must decide to leave home in a hurry.
"On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back. Remember Lot’s wife.

This situation calls for a quick decision to leave home. Whether a person is on the housetop or out working in the field, one must not waste any time to enter the house to remove some things.

Group 2: Those who are taken from where they are, whether asleep in bed or working at job.
I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left.

This situation is beyond the control of those who are taken. There is no warning that they will be taken, and there is no decision they must make in order to be taken except to be on the alert.

I believe that the first group represents the Jews living in Israel just before the Second Advent. They will hear a call to come to Jerusalem in order to pray for the deliverance of Israel. They must leave home in a hurry to call on the name of the Lord on Mount Zion. If they come, they will be saved. If they don't come, they will be incinerated. (Refer to the prophets, Malachi, Joel, and Isaiah)

I believe the second group represents the Jesus' followers who will be taken to meet the Lord in the air. Refer to 1 Thessalonians 4.

 

[Truth7t7]

That Jesus identifies this in one place, that doesn't necessarily give the authority to declare it happens in this other place. Maybe yes, maybe no, but if it's not identified in the Bible, it lacks Biblical authority.

Much love!

I agree, and your words apply directly to the claim of a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven, that's found no place in scripture

 

[marks]

If you can’t grasp that jumping happens, you wind up with a mess. For instance, in a recent conversation with someone about a passage that quite clearly speaks of the new heavens and earth, the last sentence speaks of death still being present, but reduced. A jump happened backward to the thousand years in that sentence, and the mans solution to his problem was to say death doesn’t really mean death there and that there is no thousand years. So a mess begins.

NT prophecies add detail to OT prophecies that was not present in the OT prophecy.

There is no OT prophecy of the Mark of the Beast, for instance. So then the OT prophecies themselves could be fulfilled without that. There are many examples of this.

OT prophecies did not show a gentile church. Had Jesus been received by the Jews at that time, there would not have been a gentile church, the gentiles would have joined to Israel to share in their covenant. And nothing in the OT would be harmed.

When Israel rejected Jesus, God sent the Gospel to the Gentiles directly, and gave more prophecies, things not included in the OT.

Have you considered that had Israel received Jesus, history would be completely different? And the New Testament also?

Consider Romans, and Paul's treatise on how that Israel was been set aside, but that God has preserved a remnant, and would still save them?

Had Israel received Jesus, they would not have crucified Him. Judas would have betrayed Him directly to the Romans. The Romans would have done just as the rulers of the Jews feared, and it would have been the time of Jacob's trouble.

Everything in the OT allowed for that to be a real possibility, because Gos is not a man that He should lie. When God offered Israel their kingdom, it was real. Not dishonest.

Blending dispensations creates conflicts that don't otherwise exist.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There is no jumping forward and backward as you claim

All prophecy has that jumping. If it didn’t, it would all be fulfilled right now…

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That Jesus identifies this in one place, that doesn't necessarily give the authority to declare it happens in this other place. Maybe yes, maybe no, but if it's not identified in the Bible, it lacks Biblical authority.

Much love!

You’re making no sense to me.

 

[marks]

You’re making no sense to me.

Jesus showed a break in a passage, that's OK, He's the Author. Someone else says there is a break in a passage, that's just them saying it. Unless there is something in the Bible itself to base it on. If not, then, the Bible doesn't say that, the person does.

Is that more clear?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Is it really, Wah, Wah, Wah, post #150 in response to post #149? :)

Wah, wah, wah.
Is that your final answer?
Yes.

 

[marks]

 

[marks]

So that a "no" to Biblical authority for doctrine?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So that a "no" to Biblical authority for doctrine?

That’s a no to the assertion that all prophecy happens at once. It clearly hasn’t and doesn’t. And prophecy happens literally, and if someone has to say death does not mean death or a thousand years doesn’t mean a thousand years, where will it end? That Jesus’ birth wasn’t literal, that the three wisemen weren’t literal, that Jesus didn’t literally die on a cross?

 

[marks]

That’s a no to the assertion that all prophecy happens at once. It clearly hasn’t and doesn’t. And prophecy happens literally, and if someone has to say death does not mean death or a thousand years doesn’t mean a thousand years, where will it end? That Jesus’ birth wasn’t literal, that the three wisemen weren’t literal, that Jesus didn’t literally die on a cross?

What I'm saying is this. Jesus introduced a break in a prophecy, and that's authorative. IF a man introduces a break in a prophecy without the Bible itself somehow showing that break, it's just a man saying that, that's not authorative. At least not to me. I realize many men say many things, and many gullible people just believe them.

And No, I'm not suggesting that we adopt the attitude that we can just change the meanings of words. That's just doing the same thing. If we only wish to entertain our own opinions, why even bother with the Bible?

Much love!

 

[Truth7t7]

and if someone has to say death does not mean death or a thousand years doesn’t mean a thousand years, where will it end? That Jesus’ birth wasn’t literal, that the three wisemen weren’t literal, that Jesus didn’t literally die on a cross?

From the same poster that denies, literal eternal torment of the wicked is seen below

Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

From the same poster that denies, literal eternal torment of the wicked is seen below

Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

If you read that passage very literally, it’s the SMOKE that goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest or relief day or night. Is there a difference between forever and day and night? Forever is forever. Day and night will eventually end.

 

[Truth7t7]

If you read that passage very literally, it’s the SMOKE that goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest or relief day or night. Is there a difference between forever and day and night? Forever is forever. Day and night will eventually end.

A clear explanation in denial of the wickeds "Literal" conscious eternal torment as seen below

Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

A clear failure to explain how Jesus is the only way to eternal life but yet all men live eternally.

 

[marks]

The "smoke of their torment".

Where there is smoke, there is _________ .

A: Torment.

How literal is "torment"?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The "smoke of their torment".

Where there is smoke, there is _________ .

A: Torment.

How literal is "torment"?

Much love!

I don’t know what you’re going on about here. No one is arguing that torment isn’t literal. The argument is over whether all men have eternal life or not.

 

[Truth7t7]

A clear failure to explain how Jesus is the only way to eternal life but yet all men live eternally.

Let's not forget your belief in the wicked soul that's sleeps upon their death, this being in denial of a literal "Hell" fire in torment, as seen throughout scripture, correct me if I'm wrong?