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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
What you described is defined as adultery. Is fornication then the same as adultery? Are the two words interchangeable? Having sex marries one person to the other.
Gen 38:8
8 | And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. |
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I am not going to insult you for your lack of knowledge.
It is very simple.
There is no reason to use a word that does not fit what is actually in the scriptures. Fornication is not a biblical word. Nothing in the scriptures can be accurately translated to fornication or its definitions.
I am a Theologian….I know enough about the scriptures and history so that I can raise the BS flag. There is no reason to intentionally mislead people. Whose work is that? The Lord of confusion.
The average person with an average knowledge level should be able to pick up a Bible and read accurate translations of the scriptures.
The term/phrase “sexual immorality” is still not good enough because the ancient world was doing things that we would never dream of. A good study Bible could explain the Greek words that define specific sex acts....in notes. The word Fornication is misleading and as a whole is a bad practice to use words that do not reflect the scriptures.....this leads to false beliefs. Theological clichés are catchy and people remember them so they remember false beliefs. Some of these false beliefs cause a lot of people to sin.
People get to a point where they cannot get accurate information anywhere, so why try? People like you perpetuate garbage. I am a Theologian formally educated in 5 countries....a lifetime of education….But everyone is not going to invest all that time and effort to know the truth and they should not have to. An accurate translation is easy enough but the truth is hindered by people that want to run their mouth about things they do not know.
Stick with the scriptures and stick with translations that are closer to what is in the scriptures. Of course in this world nothing perfect….just looking for the most accurate
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Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
If you are in a Christian marriage, and do something outside of marriage, the Guilt you will have is devastating. I've read many stories of this. Example. a Christian Couple married for 20 yrs., with children. The wife had an affair at work. She immediately felt extreme guilt. She cried all the time, until she told her husband, who forgave her. She still felt this extreme guilt. She ended up sleeping in a different room; still depressed over it. The husband came downstairs and found her asleep, wrote a note of love and forgiveness for her and left so she could read it when she woke up. He came down later and she had killed herself.
Don't think you will ever get away with it.
Don't think you will ever get away with it.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
No. The 2 words are not interchangeable. You would know that if you checked a dictionary.
The line between the 2 is marriage. Same act outside of marriage is called fornication. Same act in marriage (with a person you are not married to) is adultery.
So what is sexual intercourse called within a marriage, and on a side note but pertinent, when are you married? Is it based on man's viewpoint or God's? Are you married after a ceremony and legal paperwork being transpired, or what?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I don't know. What? Knowing your spouse in the Biblical sense? LOL
It depends. Are you asking legally or spiritually one flesh? Even in courts, they consider you legally married if you cohabitate for a length of time even though no ceremony or legal paperwork transpired.
'Copulate' which is in the OT. And there are some definitions of fornication (not scriptural) that don't limit it to unmarried individuals. Probably copulate is the appropriate term for sexual intercourse married or unmarried, but fornication is a bit of a gray area since its also copulation, but is typically viewed as immoral. And to further complicate it, marriage is when two flesh become 1 flesh in a biblical sense, not in man's view, but God's. I posted the scripture from the OT that pretty much settles that in my view.
8
And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I don’t agree. It pivots on intent. Judah had sex with his daughter-in-law but had no intention of marrying her. He thought she was a prostitute, which implies she knew he was a fornicator.
Sex with your spouse is not considered immoral.
Both fornication and adultery are considered immoral, if not criminal.
Fornicate is when an unmarried person has sex with another unmarried person.
Adultery is when a married person has sex with a person who is not their spouse.
Pretty straight forward.
Didn't say or infer marital sex was immoral, just made the point that sexual intercourse is copulate in the OT.
And the key on the scripture cited is not the scenario in which the word marry was used, but the fact that it was used to describe the what the act of going in into his brother's wife was called; it was considered marrying. So, to marry someone scripturally is simply engaging in sexual intercourse with them.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
So, you just disregard Judah having sex with his daughter-in-law but had no intention of marrying her. He thought she was a prostitute, which implies she knew he was a fornicator?
What do you mean by having intent to marry yet having sex with the person? Scripturally, engaging in sexual intercourse is marrying as I've been trying to point out to you! 2 flesh becoming 1= marrying
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
So, to marry someone scripturally is simply engaging in sexual intercourse with them....and staying with them in a marriage.
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That in my view is where the problem is. If you have multiple sex partners it's akin to marrying over and over again, and what is that? Sin; It's really adultery.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I guess you did not read the posts....Read post 15
But you are absolutely right.....People under estimate the seriousness of the sin of casual sex and its ramifications....the sins that follow. No respect for them and no respect for yourself.....just using another person for your gratification....children....disease....reputation for yourself and the lady etc Yes it is Adultery..
Still 2 people in love making love is not a sin, but the next step is planning a church wedding.
Some people wait to make love until after the wedding....kudos to them. More people lie about it than actually wait....thinking there is sin involved with sex before a wedding. I can tell you stories about this
Preachers tell all when they play golf....LOL
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Not an answer to my question. You have failed to show that sex without intent to marry constitutes marriage as the case with Judah proves. You got nothing to say about that. Just ignore that scenario because you're emotionally invested in your reading of a case with intent, which presumably includes Adam and Eve.
Another Biblical case where your rule does not apply is Samson, who fornicated with a prostitue. See Judges 16. You just cannot overlook the fact that marriage is a voluntary commitment that requires consent and intent.
Also, the 2 flesh becoming 1 refers to offspring created from marriage, not the 2 people literally become one. Read the context. Nothing mysterious about a couple creating 1 marriage. The mystery is procreation. How is it that 2 people join to produce 1 flesh? Even though we scientifically know the answer, couples today still cannot conceive and the Bible has many stories of God not opening the womb of women, which caused them great distress. From What does it mean that “the two shall become one flesh” (Genesis 2:24)? | GotQuestions.org
Husbands and wives become “one flesh” in sexual intimacy, as reflected literally in their children’s lives. A child is one, new, whole, individual and separate life created through the physical union of two people—a man and a woman.
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Having SEX is marriage!
Marriage: What is marriage and when do you really become married? Is it after some formal or elaborate ceremony or process, such as when a justice of the peace, ordained minister or “priest” of some church mumbles some words in front of you both while holding a bible or some other “religious” book, after which he says you’re now married, or what?
Such things as mentioned above are man-made traditions which have evolved over time and may in fact be what’s commonly done and accepted by society for a variety of reasons including satisfying society’s legal process, but although society, including the church and religious bodies in general, may tend to consider or discuss marriage from man's point of view based on such worldly, legalistic, and/or ceremonial perspectives, do these processes really constitute marriage or being/becoming married according to the scriptures? At what point are you considered married in the eyes of God since you won’t find any ceremony required or sanctioned by God in the bible? When do you become married from God’s perspective and what does the bible say and teach regarding this subject?
So, what does the word “marriage” mean? What does “marry” (verb) or “to marry” mean from which it’s derived? Aside from the commonly accepted use and understanding (by man) today of the word “marriage” in the human sense of joining 2 people together in marriage as noted above through some ceremonial or otherwise accepted legal process, the word also means (according to Webster), “combine”, or “unite”, “merge”, “blend”, and so on, such as when (in non-human terms) considering the joining together physically of, for instance, 2 pieces of metal by welding, fastening, soldering, etc., or 2 pieces of wood by gluing them together, or by the use of screws, nails, or a variety of other means, as well as all other previously separated objects that are joined together through some process by which they become physically one. But in all cases whether applying the word to people or inanimate objects or ‘things’, the end result is the physical joining together of the 2 previously separate pieces so they then become united as one! This is what happens when 2 people are joined together in “marriage”; they become one physically, but when does this really occur? Here’s what the bible (God’s word) says.
Gen 2:24
“Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.”
Comment: Here in the second chapter of God’s word, there was no ceremony, no man-made traditions of any kind, yet God speaks of the man and his wife, and further that “they shall be one flesh”. So, at what point did they become “one flesh” would be the logical question to ask? The answer should be obvious: when they are joined together sexually!
So were Adam and Eve married? I’d say that they were at this point as further documented below. She was his wife, but they were not one flesh until they were joined together physically (“married”) by having sex.
Gen 4:1
“And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.”
Comment: Here in this passage, Eve was considered Adam’s wife, after which he “knew” her, which is the common word and phraseology used in the bible to denote that sexual relations occurred. So Eve was his wife, without there being a ceremony, and without having yet engaged in sexual intercourse, which is at the point they became “one flesh” and were “married”, or joined together.
And later in Genesis, chapter 38, you find another instance that clearly defines the point at which people become “married”, also with no ceremony and without the man and woman in this case even being man-and-wife.
If this instance, the man was told to “go in unto” (which is another common phrase used in the scriptures meaning to have sexual intercourse with) his deceased brother’s wife and “marry” her so she could bare offspring through her brother-in-law on behalf of his deceased brother, which was the tradition at that time sanctioned by God, as a means of carrying-on and perpetuating the family. The key here is that this was considered “marrying” (once again, the joining together physically of the two individuals).
Gen 38: 6-10
6
And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name was Tamar.
7
And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.
8
And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
9
And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
10
And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
Deuteronomy 24:1
“When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favor in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.”
Comment: The above passage infers that having a wife does not mean that you’re married and being married to her is a separate and distinct thing.
Isaiah 54:1
“Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.”
Comment: Also in the above passage, the words “married wife” are used which infers that a woman being a wife does not necessarily means she’s married; otherwise these two words would not have been used together.
Now examine a few verses in the New Testament on the subject of being joined, becoming “one flesh”.
Mat 19: 5-6
"And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."
1 Cor: 6:15-16
"Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. “What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.”
Also in the New Testament you’ll notice in 1st Cor 7, the discussion of marriage as well as virgins; note the distinction made between wives and virgins paying particular attention to verses 34 thru 36.
1 Corinthians 7
27Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife. 28But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you. 29But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none; 30And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not; 31And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away. 32But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: 33But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. 34There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. 35And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction. 36But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry. 37Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.38So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.
Mat 1:18-25
18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. 24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Comment: Here too, you can clearly see that Joseph was married to Mary as being either espoused to her or she actually being referred to as "his wife", however, you will also notice that it's stated that "he knew her not", meaning they had not yet had sexual relations; so once again, it's evident that you can be a wife but not yet "married" by virtue of the word "knew" which is one of the scriptural terms for coming together in sexual intercourse.
Marriage: What is marriage and when do you really become married? Is it after some formal or elaborate ceremony or process, such as when a justice of the peace, ordained minister or “priest” of some church mumbles some words in front of you both while holding a bible or some other “religious” book, after which he says you’re now married, or what?
Such things as mentioned above are man-made traditions which have evolved over time and may in fact be what’s commonly done and accepted by society for a variety of reasons including satisfying society’s legal process, but although society, including the church and religious bodies in general, may tend to consider or discuss marriage from man's point of view based on such worldly, legalistic, and/or ceremonial perspectives, do these processes really constitute marriage or being/becoming married according to the scriptures? At what point are you considered married in the eyes of God since you won’t find any ceremony required or sanctioned by God in the bible? When do you become married from God’s perspective and what does the bible say and teach regarding this subject?
So, what does the word “marriage” mean? What does “marry” (verb) or “to marry” mean from which it’s derived? Aside from the commonly accepted use and understanding (by man) today of the word “marriage” in the human sense of joining 2 people together in marriage as noted above through some ceremonial or otherwise accepted legal process, the word also means (according to Webster), “combine”, or “unite”, “merge”, “blend”, and so on, such as when (in non-human terms) considering the joining together physically of, for instance, 2 pieces of metal by welding, fastening, soldering, etc., or 2 pieces of wood by gluing them together, or by the use of screws, nails, or a variety of other means, as well as all other previously separated objects that are joined together through some process by which they become physically one. But in all cases whether applying the word to people or inanimate objects or ‘things’, the end result is the physical joining together of the 2 previously separate pieces so they then become united as one! This is what happens when 2 people are joined together in “marriage”; they become one physically, but when does this really occur? Here’s what the bible (God’s word) says.
Gen 2:24
“Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.”
Comment: Here in the second chapter of God’s word, there was no ceremony, no man-made traditions of any kind, yet God speaks of the man and his wife, and further that “they shall be one flesh”. So, at what point did they become “one flesh” would be the logical question to ask? The answer should be obvious: when they are joined together sexually!
So were Adam and Eve married? I’d say that they were at this point as further documented below. She was his wife, but they were not one flesh until they were joined together physically (“married”) by having sex.
Gen 4:1
“And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.”
Comment: Here in this passage, Eve was considered Adam’s wife, after which he “knew” her, which is the common word and phraseology used in the bible to denote that sexual relations occurred. So Eve was his wife, without there being a ceremony, and without having yet engaged in sexual intercourse, which is at the point they became “one flesh” and were “married”, or joined together.
And later in Genesis, chapter 38, you find another instance that clearly defines the point at which people become “married”, also with no ceremony and without the man and woman in this case even being man-and-wife.
If this instance, the man was told to “go in unto” (which is another common phrase used in the scriptures meaning to have sexual intercourse with) his deceased brother’s wife and “marry” her so she could bare offspring through her brother-in-law on behalf of his deceased brother, which was the tradition at that time sanctioned by God, as a means of carrying-on and perpetuating the family. The key here is that this was considered “marrying” (once again, the joining together physically of the two individuals).
Gen 38: 6-10
6
And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name was Tamar.
7
And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.
8
And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
9
And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
10
And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
Deuteronomy 24:1
“When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favor in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.”
Comment: The above passage infers that having a wife does not mean that you’re married and being married to her is a separate and distinct thing.
Isaiah 54:1
“Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.”
Comment: Also in the above passage, the words “married wife” are used which infers that a woman being a wife does not necessarily means she’s married; otherwise these two words would not have been used together.
Now examine a few verses in the New Testament on the subject of being joined, becoming “one flesh”.
Mat 19: 5-6
"And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."
1 Cor: 6:15-16
"Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. “What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.”
Also in the New Testament you’ll notice in 1st Cor 7, the discussion of marriage as well as virgins; note the distinction made between wives and virgins paying particular attention to verses 34 thru 36.
1 Corinthians 7
27Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife. 28But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you. 29But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none; 30And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not; 31And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away. 32But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: 33But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. 34There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. 35And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction. 36But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry. 37Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.38So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.
Mat 1:18-25
18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. 24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Comment: Here too, you can clearly see that Joseph was married to Mary as being either espoused to her or she actually being referred to as "his wife", however, you will also notice that it's stated that "he knew her not", meaning they had not yet had sexual relations; so once again, it's evident that you can be a wife but not yet "married" by virtue of the word "knew" which is one of the scriptural terms for coming together in sexual intercourse.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
As they say, you hit the nail on the head....exactly right. Religiously and civilly......In most countries even if you have a wedding ceremony, if you do not have sex you can get the marriage annulled. The union consummates the marriage.
