Adam & Eve

[face2face]

How can JW's profess to be God's witnesses and have next to no knowledge of Genesis 3?

Three (3) chapters into the Bible and they are have lost their way? The question then is what else have they gone astray on?

F2F

 

[TheHC]

God made no covenant with Adam after he sinned.

Exactly Right.

This is a prophecy… the first in the Bible.

And the words were addressed to Satan / the Serpent, not to anyone else.

A&E may have heard God speak this prophecy, from which Eve may have gotten some erroneous ideas, but Jehovah’s promise was addressed to Satan.

Take care, my brother.

 

[face2face]

Exactly Right.

This is a prophecy… the first in the Bible.

And the words were addressed to Satan / the Serpent, not to anyone else.

A&E may have heard God speak this prophecy, from which Eve may have gotten some erroneous ideas, but Jehovah’s promise was addressed to Satan.

Take care, my brother.

Here is the situation.

We have @Keiw stating Genesis 3:15 "happens" to be about the 144,000 and the Heavenly Saints, but at the same time, we have the JW's stating it is not a Covenant, in other words it has nothing to do with Adam & Eve at all...but everything to do with JW's!

I've asked numerous times who is the seed of the Woman and @TheHC can only provide moral support for Keiw. This whole thread is a testimony against them being the witnesses of God on the earth (out of form).

So let’s review.

1. The JW's do not understand the Covenant God made with Adam & Eve

2. They seem to not know who the seed of the woman is in Genesis 3:15 (unwilling to answer!)

3. They do not understand how the enmity between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman plays out throughout Scripture AND even in A&E's own children

4. They believe A&E cannot be saved though consider the facts:

- A&E forsake their own coverings and allow God to cover them with a sacrificed animal

- They are shown how to sacrifice an animal and take its skin!

- They are taught "the" principle... that without the shedding of blood there can be no remission of sins

- A&E teach all these lessons to their children who offer sacrifices in like manner!

5. Somehow - I haven’t been shown, Keiw forces there 144,000 onto Genesis 3:15 without a shred of evidence

6. Somehow, they bring fallen angels into the text, where is it nowhere spoken of in all the Word (no origin story) In fact the record states this crafty animal was made by God like all the other animals. (where is the fallen angel story?...God warning A&E = NOTHING!)

7. Every response in this thread has had no Scriptural support which for an organisation who prides themselves on having the answers, its a rather telling void in their faith.

8. I guarantee if I asked TheHc to provide supporting quotes to show the angels are speaking to Satan in Genesis 3 it would be responded with silence.

9. The idea of Genesis 3:15 being a "prophecy", but with no explanation of its detail, is something "new" for this thread...and TheHC is correct, however it is not only a prophecy, but it’s a Covenant promising what God is going to do in the Earth (how could they miss this?) .

But as it stands, if the JW's cannot give a Biblically supported answer as to the identity of the Seed of the Woman then the detail of this prophecy is hidden from them.

BTW, this is not me picking on JW's - this is highlighting the deficiencies in their understanding which ought to humble them and encourage them to seek for greater understanding. At least see them asking the right questions in the hope of being shown the right answers.

I know Keiw & Aunty Jane know God sacrificed an animal and covered their sin, with a shadow of what was to come! Can they admit to this knowledge?

So far, the answer is a resounding no!

F2F

 

[face2face]

@TheHC & @Keiw

Order of events

Jehovah God questions A&E

Order

1. Adam
2. Eve
3. Serpent (why no question?)

Jehovah God judges and provides a Covenant Promise to all three of the future event which are going to take place! This Covenant involves the offspring of the Serpent and the offspring of the Woman (the mother of all living)

Order

3. Serpent
2 Eve
1. Adam

Why was Adam questioned first? But judged last?

Why was it pointless asking the animal serpent a question? (provide Scripture to support your answer) why not ask why it said the things it said?

If the Serpent was a fallen angel, why would it be essential to ask those questions?

I'm interested in your response.

F2F

 

[Keiw]

No, I asked you who in Genesis 3:15 is the seed of the woman.

F2F

i answered you-Jesus and the 144,000 co rulers.

 

[Keiw]

And if this is true then you have just proven to yourself and all the JW's in this forum that God made a Covenant with Adam (& Eve)

F2F

@TheHC HC - still minor things?

That covenant was made to all sinners. No one perfect choosing to rebel are covered.

 

[face2face]

i answered you-Jesus and the 144,000 co rulers.

Where are you getting this from?

 

[face2face]

That covenant was made to all sinners. No one perfect choosing to rebel are covered.

We have already shown how A&E were covered with the skin of a sacrificed animal.

I get why you can't speak to that truth Keiw, but it doesn't change it truthfulness.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Keiw

Let's try again.

Why was Adam first questioned and judged last?

Nice easy one for you

F2F

 

[TheHC]

@TheHC & @Keiw

Order of events

Jehovah God questions A&E

Order

1. Adam
2. Eve
3. Serpent (why no question?)

Jehovah God judges and provides a Covenant Promise to all three of the future event which are going to take place! This Covenant involves the offspring of the Serpent and the offspring of the Woman (the mother of all living)

Order

3. Serpent
2 Eve
1. Adam

Why was Adam questioned first? But judged last?

Why was it pointless asking the animal serpent a question? (provide Scripture to support your answer) why not ask why it said the things it said?

If the Serpent was a fallen angel, why would it be essential to ask those questions?

I'm interested in your response.

F2F

The “woman” in the prophecy is not Eve.
Hint:
This woman of Genesis 3:15 and the pregnant woman of Revelation 12:1-5 are the same.

You asked someone on here if they were teachable. We strive to be teachable, to be humble: that is why we have answers to these questions. - Luke 10:21

But it doesn’t seem that you are willing to learn, to accept who provides “food at the proper time.”(Matthew 24:45-47) Show me im wrong. Time will tell.

But if your responses consist of belittling terms… such as “ridiculous comment”….
and resort to strawman arguments… such as “Keiw doesn't believe his God makes Covenants”, we won’t keep engaging.

 

[face2face]

The “woman” in the prophecy is not Eve.

Your entire response is in error, but I need to address this first.

Before we get into the covenant of Genesis 3:15 we need to explore your incorrect view of Eve. There is no point us having a discussion about Eve, or her seed (offspring) if you don't understand the record in its context.

I will assume by you Rev 12 comment and Keiws 144,000 comment that you cannot discern the actual story of Genesis 3. You both have shown me clearly you are not able to talk to the details of this account, but rather force a futurist view on the record.

Eve

Adam again had sexual relations with his wife, and she gave birth to a son. She named him Seth (means appointed) because, as she said, “God has appointed for me another offspring (seed) in place of Abel, because Cain killed him.” Gen 4:25

Do you believe God blessed Eve with Seth, given his name means appointed by God?

Would you agree Eve's comment on the birth of this son reveals that she had a proper understanding of the purpose of God in her and him?

The reason I'm asking you this HC is to see whether you all have integrity in the Word which you say you all have.

- We have seen God's promise of fixing the issue of sin through the promise of a Seed from the Woman in Genesis 3:15

- We have seen how God clothed A&E and how they forsook their coverings and willingly allowed God to have mercy on them through the sacrifice & skin of an animal

- We have seen how A&E taught their two boys to make offerings to the Lord which they all clearly did as per Gen 4

- We now have seen how Eve, not only naming her son with God's plan and purpose in mind, but prescribes the blessing to God as something divinely appointed by Him. This MUST concern you all!

I know much of what you have been shown above is not consistent with your @Keiw @Aunty Jane @Mark51 beliefs.

If we take your understanding of A&E how being without hope and condemned to death forever - how would you expect the record to read if this was true? Can you see the record contradicts your beliefs?

Would you expect God teaching them the shedding of blood principle and to accept a covering of His choosing? Would you expect God to continue to bless A&E and work with them this closely?

I know Keiw doesn’t understand this Scripture, that is obvious to any who read this thread, and that is not an big issue in itself, only that if he can't discover the truth of the record for himself what hope does he have in coming to a knowledge of truth? Now it's also clear your Rev 12 reference is also in error, similar to Keiws 144,000 reference, so you are both in the same position (not good).

If you all want to dissengage from these questions, I understand - it's clear there has been resistence to engage - I could argue we all are yet to do so given the light replies.

However, if you want to engage please make sure you explain how you draw to your doctrinal position.

At present, all the evidence reveals God had compassion on A&E and worked with them in their sinful state, and continued to bless them with children etc.

Cain & Abel

Abel became a shepherd of the flock, but Cain became a cultivator of the ground. 3 After some time, Cain brought some fruits of the land as an offering to Jehovah. 4 But Abel brought some firstlings of his flock including their fat. While Jehovah looked with favor on Abel and on his offering,e 5 he did not look with any favor on Cain and on his offering. So Cain grew hot with anger and was dejected.

Who taught them to bring offerings to the Lord?

If A&E are condemned with no hope why would they all be making regular offerings to God?

If A&E witnessed the offering of the animal and the provision of a covering, did Abel find favour his parents understanding? Could spiritually see the divine principles of how God deals with sin?

Cain - seed of the seprent (fleshly thinking) ------------------------- ENMITY -------------------------------- Abel - seed of the woman??


The firstlings of the sheep and goats were first slain, and the blood poured out. In doing so, Abel acknowledged the need of crucifying the flesh (Gal 5:24) and of dedicating his life (Lev 17:11) unto Jehovah God. The fat was then consumed upon the altar, by which he acknowledged that the stored energy of flesh should be expended in doing the will of God. In sacrificing the firstlings of his flock, Abel confessed his belief in the coming Redeemer, the First born Seed of the Woman (Gen. 3:15).

So the Seed (singular) of the Woman, is Christ, which is very easy to prove as you all will see - if you continue to engage!

F2F

 

[face2face]

But if your responses consist of belittling terms… such as “ridiculous comment”….
and resort to strawman arguments… such as “Keiw doesn't believe his God makes Covenants”, we won’t keep engaging.

You are partially right HC, though you have not been entirely honest in why these comments have eventuated. If you make unfounded claims like those of Keiw's about the 144,000 and yours being Rev 12 pregnant women, maybe my claim is true? Maybe he doesnt believe his God makes covenants as Genesis is emphatic that God is going to do something to fix the sin problem, however you both deny this truth. If you deny this truth - what else do you deny?

My previous post will possibly answer that question.

We will see.

F2F

 

[Keiw]

You are partially right HC, though you have not been entirely honest in why these comments have eventuated. If you make unfounded claims like those of Keiw's about the 144,000 and yours being Rev 12 pregnant women, maybe my claim is true? Maybe he doesnt believe his God makes covenants as Genesis is emphatic that God is going to do something to fix the sin problem, however you both deny this truth. If you deny this truth - what else do you deny?

My previous post will possibly answer that question.

We will see.

F2F

I never said God doesn't make covenants. I said perfect ones who choose to rebel get no coverage.
Rev 12 is explaining Rev 6:2= the war in heaven( ride of the white horse) and the birth of Gods kingdom( He receives his crown)

 

[face2face]

I never said God doesn't make covenants. I said perfect ones who choose to rebel get no coverage.
Rev 12 is explaining Rev 6:2= the war in heaven( ride of the white horse) and the birth of Gods kingdom( He receives his crown)

All good Keiw, it's clear you are unable to speak to Genesis 3 & 4. You, like HC want to run away to the other book end in the hope of justifying you ridiculous belief.

Go away and study Gen 3&4 for yourself.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@TheHC & @Keiw

Order of events

Jehovah God questions A&E

Order

1. Adam
2. Eve
3. Serpent (why no question?)

Jehovah God judges and provides a Covenant Promise to all three of the future event which are going to take place! This Covenant involves the offspring of the Serpent and the offspring of the Woman (the mother of all living)

Order

3. Serpent
2 Eve
1. Adam

Why was Adam questioned first? But judged last?

Why was it pointless asking the animal serpent a question? (provide Scripture to support your answer) why not ask why it said the things it said?

If the Serpent was a fallen angel, why would it be essential to ask those questions?

I'm interested in your response.

 

[TheHC]

…ridiculous belief.

And here, we have another scoffing statement.
You, F2F, are the one not teachable.
How many others believe as you do, that can offer support? (This seems to be something you’ve come up with all on your own.)

You don’t need to answer; I don’t think I will be engaging you anymore.

 

[face2face]

And here, we have another scoffing statement.
You, F2F, are the one not teachable.
How many others believe as you do, that can offer support? (This seems to be something you’ve come up with all on your own.)

You don’t need to answer; I don’t think I will be engaging you anymore.

There are a couple of things that make your comment ridiculous HC.

1. You make no connection between Gen 3:15 and Rev 12 - you pluck it out of thin air
2. You and Keiw have failed to answer all of the questions in this thread and avoided all the context of Genesis 3 & 4
3. You claim scoffing when in fact its your inability to "give an answer" so your only response is to claim some imaginary offense

On all three accounts, it's weak.

I suggest you read through the thread and look at all the unanswered questions and posts and make an attempt to speak to the record and try not to "jump" to unrelated passages.

All the best, and I hope you prayerfully search the Scriptures.

F2F

 

[face2face]

How many others believe as you do, that can offer support? (This seems to be something you’ve come up with all on your own.)

Many who have carefully read the Bible and found those connected truths which you, Keiw, Aunty Jane and Mark51 have failed to do.

It's like this HC. It's clear for all reading this thread to see you all have struggled to honesty agree to seeing the Divine lessons being taught both A&E and you. This presents as dishonest and an unwillingness to learn. Now it would be different is Keiw had come back and said "show me your understanding of the Covenant God made with A&E - that would be different...its like me asking you to show your connection between Gen 3:15 and Rev 12, though I doubt you would for reasons already stated.

This thread was a test to see if you as God's Witnesses are able to truthfully and honestly witness the Divine Principles being taught in Genesis 3 and the outcome is you cannot because you do not know them.

What is known is the following:

- You know a God who makes Covenants only that the Covenant in Gen 3 is not known to you

- You know the principle of Leviticus 17 and the shedding of blood its just that you can't acknowledge it from Gen 3 for reasons already stated

- You know God continued a relationship with A&E after their expulsion from the Garden but again you are unable to admit this for reasons already stated. (the provision of Seth and the Purpose God revealed to Eve)

- The details to the Covenant and how God would deal with sin in the flesh has also been hidden from you because you believe angels can sin and you also believe your 144,000 doctrine is referred to in Gen 3:15 which it is not
Overall, should you disengage it has not been for the want of trying with you all.

I give credit to Keiw for engaging the most and while you have come in to support, it hasnt offered the insights into your beliefs as I had hoped. Aunty Jane is conflicted in many ways, as I know her integrity is high and she searches and places these things in her heart. She has major doubt about her understanding of Genesis 3. Mark51 was a single misfire and he's gone.

May your Jehovah God provide you the insights into His Word and deliver you from darkness

F2F

 

[face2face]

you are way off. Cain murdered Abel=a sin. Yet Cain fathered Enoch a righteous man. Cain was born a sinner as all A&E offspring were, He can be forgiven. No one perfect will be forgiven.

Your reply had nothing at all to dowith my post...maybe you should read the post more carefully Keiw.

 

[face2face]

The Lord God made garments from skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them Ge 3:21.

The skin from a sacrificed animal.

The JW's seem not understand the principle of animal sacrifices.

But Abel brought some of the firstborn of his flock—even the fattest (fat) of them. And the Lord was pleased with Abel and his offering,Ge 4:4.

The JW will not admit to these animal sacrifices as a means of God dealing with sin (in type) and showing by what means Adam & Eve can have "life".

Yes, just prior to this Adam named his wife "LIFE" and now God will show them HOW that life with be attained.

The Lord God made garments from skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them Ge 3:21.

After this....

Abel's offering of the "firstlings of his flock" implies that he had been taught, and recognised the need of bloodshedding as a covering for sin.

for the life of every living thing is in the blood. So I myself have assigned it to you on the altar to make atonement for your lives, for the blood makes atonement by means of the life Le 17:10–11.

Do the JW's acknowledge the principle in Genesis 3:21 & 4:4?

How did A&E know about animal sacrifice?
How did Abel and Seth learn of animal sacrifice?
If they produced these sacrifices for/to God as an offering while condemned? How so? Do JW's actually believe they continued to worship, orffer sacrifices and teach their children while being totally and utterly condemned?

NOT ONLY THIS

What of the fat?

The fat was then consumed upon the altar, by which he acknowledged that the stored energy of flesh should be expended in doing the will of God.

These principles are all fully revealed in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and they begin here in Genesis 3:21 with the dealing of sin!!!!

The covering of sin speaks to the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world.

Always in the Mind of the Father from the beginning

F2F