Adam & Eve

[Mark51]

David committed the presumptuous sin and was forgiven.

19:13 Moreover, keep me from committing flagrant sins; do not allow such sins to control me. Then I will be blameless, and innocent of blatant rebellion Ps 19:13.

It's interesting that you go to the Law to justify your judgement...does this concern you?

What I mean, is you are able to use the Law to justify your position on A&E but you wont go to the Law to show a reasoning on how God dealt with their sin? "without the shedding of blood..."

It's as though you can only go so far and no further.


You mean like David's sin with Bethsheba?

8:11 When a sentence is not executed at once against a crime, the human heart is encouraged to do evil. Ec 8:11.

What was the sentence on David? (lost a son = death Romans 6:23)
What was the sentence on A&E? (lost the garden = death Romans 6:23)



So you are saying, God in forgiving David his blatant and presumptuous sin, lost respect from his ministering servants (angels)?

Yeah, nah, you don't believe that for a second!


You have no basis for your belief, none whatsoever.

Allow me to ask you a question.

Why was an animal slain and the first pair clothed?

What was God teaching them?

I'm more interested in "how" you explain this account away.

F2F

 

[Mark51]

David committed the presumptuous sin and was forgiven.

19:13 Moreover, keep me from committing flagrant sins; do not allow such sins to control me. Then I will be blameless, and innocent of blatant rebellion Ps 19:13.

It's interesting that you go to the Law to justify your judgement...does this concern you?

What I mean, is you are able to use the Law to justify your position on A&E but you wont go to the Law to show a reasoning on how God dealt with their sin? "without the shedding of blood..."

It's as though you can only go so far and no further.


You mean like David's sin with Bethsheba?

8:11 When a sentence is not executed at once against a crime, the human heart is encouraged to do evil. Ec 8:11.

What was the sentence on David? (lost a son = death Romans 6:23)
What was the sentence on A&E? (lost the garden = death Romans 6:23)



So you are saying, God in forgiving David his blatant and presumptuous sin, lost respect from his ministering servants (angels)?

Yeah, nah, you don't believe that for a second!


You have no basis for your belief, none whatsoever.

Allow me to ask you a question.

Why was an animal slain and the first pair clothed?

What was God teaching them?

I'm more interested in "how" you explain this account away.

F2F

After Adam and Eve were confronted by God, he offered no invitation to repentance. (Genesis 3:16-24) Likewise, he offered no opportunity for repentance to Satan and the other angelic creatures.-Genesis 3:14, 15; Matthew 25:41.

David, like all of us, is different from Adam and Eve. They were created in perfection: physically, mentally and spiritually. However, David heart was “broken and crushed.” Although God forgave him, he did not eliminate the painful consequences of David’s sins.-Psalms 32:5; 51:17.

 

[face2face]

@TheHC I am shocked at the hesitancy in this thread to deal with very clear Bible themes.

After Adam and Eve were confronted by God, he offered no invitation to repentance. (Genesis 3:16-24) Likewise, he offered no opportunity for repentance to Satan and the other angelic creatures.-Genesis 3:14, 15; Matthew 25:41.

David, like all of us, is different from Adam and Eve. They were created in perfection: physically, mentally and spiritually. However, David heart was “broken and crushed.” Although God forgave him, he did not eliminate the painful consequences of David’s sins.-Psalms 32:5; 51:17.

Here is an example of a beleiver who is not willing to enter the Word of God or take the care to understand what is happening here with the first pair.

This reply did not acknowledge Davids presumpteous sin.
This reply does not acknowledge the principle of there being no forgiveness without the shedding of blood.
This reply fails to recognised the Covenant name or its meaning and application to Gen 3:15
This reply fails to acknowledge the fulfillment of this covenant in Christ

Did Adam & Eve remove their coverings?
Did Adam & Eve allow God's covering to be placed on them?

Yes or no?

F2F

 

[face2face]

Is Adam & Eve an allegory for the beginning of all men and women? Is it possible that God placed humans throughout the world and that the story of the garden is a parable? Are we supposed to believe that white, black, Indian & Asians all evolved from just two humans, Adam & Eve?

I'm not so interested in this aspect of the generations of men and women who came from A&E and while I agree this thread is looking at the Divine priciples being taught for our learning.

F2F

 

[NotTheRock]

I'm not so interested in this aspect of the generations of men and women who came from A&E and while I agree this thread is looking at the Divine priciples being taught for our learning.

F2F

Ok. I'll create a new thread so as not to segue off of your topic.

 

[face2face]

While @Mark51 works through the lessons of removing ones own garment and placing on that which is provided by God.... we will review what we have learned from this account.

The death of the animal and the provision of the skin as a covering taught them:

(1) It brought home the reality of sin, and of the punishment that accrues there from.
(2) It showed that the thinking of flesh ignorant of the Word of God will lead astray.
(3) It made more evident that man is dependent upon the mercy, forgiveness and grace of God, Divine qualities that God expects forgiven man to manifest towards his fellows (cp. Matt. 5:44-45; Rom. 5:8).
(4) It demonstrated man's need of God: the necessity for him to manifest humility, faith, loyalty, obedience.
(5) It set forth more completely a balanced view of God's character, enabling Adam and Eve to more clearly "behold the goodness and the severity of God" (Rom. 11:22; Exod. 34:6-7).

In being instructed in the importance to remove their own covering and allowing God to cover them God revealed an essential principle in how God deals with sin

My offenses would be sealed up in a bag; you would cover over my sin. Job 14:17.

SIN MUST BE COVERED BY A COVENANT VICTIM AND THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD (A LIFE MUST BE GIVEN!)

And while the skin was only a shadow of the future work God would do through His Son he showed them important lessons on how He deals with sin.

We must not make coverings with our own hands!
We must be prepared to accept the covering of Christ, as he is the Garment of Righteouness even though it is possible for us to dirty our garments with sin Rev 3:4 he is just and faith to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We are yet to focus on the Covenant of Promise which reveal how God was going to deal with sin completely in Christ Jesus and the Plan of Redemption He would reveal over time!

F2F

 

[Keiw]

As we are finding these are points without foundation or premise in the Word of God. It's also worth noting you and @Mark51 both avoided this quote like the plague!

3:20 The man named his wife Eve, because she was the mother of all the living. 3:21 The Lord God made garments from skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them. Ge 3:20–21.

I'm going to take you deeper into the text now so fasten your seats belts did you notice (maybe you didnt!) that one significant item has been revealed to you?

First, is the use of the Covenant name: Yahweh Elohim.

Why would the Covenant name be used in relation to both Adam & Eve being clothed with the skin of an animal?

AND, what does the covenant name link back to in Genesis 3?

F2F

Post #10; #21 are still unanswered

@Aunty Jane you should be reading this exchange as it will guide you into Divine Principles you are yet to fully understand!!

Hard to find truth in your altered translations. Gen 3:21= And(YHWH) =(Jehovah God) proceeded to make long garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. LORD does not belong there by Gods will.

 

[face2face]

Hard to find truth in your altered translations. Gen 3:21= And(YHWH) =(Jehovah God) proceeded to make long garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. LORD does not belong there by Gods will.

Keep looking Keiw! At least you tried which is a start.

 

[face2face]

Hard to find truth in your altered translations. Gen 3:21= And(YHWH) =(Jehovah God) proceeded to make long garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. LORD does not belong there by Gods will.

Who clothed A&E?
What was required to happen before they were clothed?
Do you believe God did this by force or by instruction?
Before A&E could be clothed, what did they have to expose?

F2F

 

[face2face]

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (Study Edition)



@Keiw @Mark51 @Aunty Jane @TheHC

I'm curious why you all don't know and understand the Covenant name, or how it relates to the Covenant in Eden - the first of all the Covenants in the Bible?

What's also interesting is your own Study Bible connects the clothing of A&E with the removal of the self made garments? Has this been missed?

Either you all have not studied this section of Scripture, which I find hard to believe, or you have taken the party line and missed it altogether?



Your translation styles it Jehovah God, which is fine by me as it still conveys the meaning of "He will be whom He will be" or "I am Whom I am" which relates to the clothing of the first pair.

God is revealing through the first pair how He will be manifested through His Mighty Ones! His Children! A&E being the first.

So far Post #10 #21 #46 require answering

I think what will happen in time if these questions and divine principles are left unanswered, your credibility will be questioned and this is not a "good" look for any denomination/believer to experience.

What we are seeing the the defense of Church Dogma and not a careful reading of the Word.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Keiw @Mark51 @Aunty Jane @TheHC

An important principle we learn from the fig leaves / skin covering of an animal (shedding of blood) is that it willingly exposed their shame!

God will never forcibly expose a persons shame - this must be a voluntary act of repentance. The writer of the proverbs understood this principle.

Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy. Proverbs 28:13

(Can you see now why it was important for the first pair to be instructed to remove their coverings?)

I must say, I am genuinely shocked that you do not know and understand this principle as seen in the willing removal of the fig leaf coverings and the clothing by a sacrificed animal.

If the JW's believe God forcibly covered A&E's shame, then I assume you also believe repentance is NOT the pathway to salvation as the Apostle Paul taught.

For sadness (grief) in a godly way produces repentance leading to salvation, leaving no regret; but the sadness of the world produces death.2 Corinth 7:10

Your Bible comment is correct: (This godly grief or sadness) is the result of a person’s seeing wrongdoing as a sin against God. This attitude moves him to seek God’s forgiveness and correct his wrong course. Such was the sadness demonstrated by the Christians in Corinth, keeping them on the road to salvation.

Did A&E feel the grief (and sadness) of their sin? And did they gain comfort that God did NOT leave them without hope?

So what is Jehovah teaching you in this account?

Well, He taught Adam to shed the blood of a lamb / animal (which subsequently he taught his sons), to cover his nakedness with its skin. This was the 'lamb slain from the foundation of the world', and represented him who is the Lamb typically slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8).

And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it. From the founding of the world, not one of their names has been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.

Adam and his wife were in this manner clothed by Yahweh Elohim, and being clothed their sins were expiated or covered and not left to languish in their sins.

F2F

 

[Keiw]

Keep looking Keiw! At least you tried which is a start.

I know my post is fact, as do the translators of the divine name kjv( 2015) who put Gods name back where God willed it.

 

[Keiw]

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (Study Edition)
View attachment 49607


@Keiw @Mark51 @Aunty Jane @TheHC

I'm curious why you all don't know and understand the Covenant name, or how it relates to the Covenant in Eden - the first of all the Covenants in the Bible?

What's also interesting is your own Study Bible connects the clothing of A&E with the removal of the self made garments? Has this been missed?

Either you all have not studied this section of Scripture, which I find hard to believe, or you have taken the party line and missed it altogether?

View attachment 49605

Your translation styles it Jehovah God, which is fine by me as it still conveys the meaning of "He will be whom He will be" or "I am Whom I am" which relates to the clothing of the first pair.

God is revealing through the first pair how He will be manifested through His Mighty Ones! His Children! A&E being the first.

So far Post #10 #21 #46 require answering

I think what will happen in time if these questions and divine principles are left unanswered, your credibility will be questioned and this is not a "good" look for any denomination/believer to experience.

What we are seeing the the defense of Church Dogma and not a careful reading of the Word.

F2F

its you in error, not the JW,s.

 

[Keiw]

@Keiw @Mark51 @Aunty Jane @TheHC

An important principle we learn from the fig leaves / skin covering of an animal (shedding of blood) is that it willingly exposed their shame!

God will never forcibly expose a persons shame - this must be a voluntary act of repentance. The writer of the proverbs understood this principle.

Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy. Proverbs 28:13

(Can you see now why it was important for the first pair to be instructed to remove their coverings?)

I must say, I am genuinely shocked that you do not know and understand this principle as seen in the willing removal of the fig leaf coverings and the clothing by a sacrificed animal.

If the JW's believe God forcibly covered A&E's shame, then I assume you also believe repentance is NOT the pathway to salvation as the Apostle Paul taught.

For sadness (grief) in a godly way produces repentance leading to salvation, leaving no regret; but the sadness of the world produces death.2 Corinth 7:10

Your Bible comment is correct: (This godly grief or sadness) is the result of a person’s seeing wrongdoing as a sin against God. This attitude moves him to seek God’s forgiveness and correct his wrong course. Such was the sadness demonstrated by the Christians in Corinth, keeping them on the road to salvation.

Did A&E feel the grief (and sadness) of their sin? And did they gain comfort that God did NOT leave them without hope?

So what is Jehovah teaching you in this account?

Well, He taught Adam to shed the blood of a lamb / animal (which subsequently he taught his sons), to cover his nakedness with its skin. This was the 'lamb slain from the foundation of the world', and represented him who is the Lamb typically slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8).

And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it. From the founding of the world, not one of their names has been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.

Adam and his wife were in this manner clothed by Yahweh Elohim, and being clothed their sins were expiated or covered and not left to languish in their sins.

F2F

You are twisting reality--No perfect one who falls will be saved.

 

[face2face]

You are twisting reality--No perfect one who falls will be saved.

@TheHC

Is it normal for JW's to resist true exposition when the evidence is so clearly stated? I'm asking you as it appears you have been more reasonable in your communication than others here.

In affect what Keiw is saying is Jehovah God did not clothe them in their sin - it means he has a god which teaches judgement to condemnation over mercy.

In terms of this study, we are only scratching the surface in what is the seedbed for the entire message of redemption.

Interested in your thoughts thanks

F2F

 

[face2face]

its you in error, not the JW,s.

If you are struggling with these principles maybe lean on Mark51 or Aunty to assist...they have been very quiet of late!

F2F

 

[Keiw]

@TheHC

Is it normal for JW's to resist true exposition when the evidence is so clearly stated? I'm asking you as it appears you have been more reasonable in your communication than others here.

In affect what Keiw is saying is Jehovah God did not clothe them in their sin - it means he has a god which teaches judgement to condemnation over mercy.

In terms of this study, we are only scratching the surface in what is the seedbed for the entire message of redemption.

Interested in your thoughts thanks

F2F

Judgement to condemnation to the ones who were perfect and fall to sin.

 

[Keiw]

If you are struggling with these principles maybe lean on Mark51 or Aunty to assist...they have been very quiet of late!

F2F

Its you who need help.

 

[face2face]

Judgement to condemnation to the ones who were perfect and fall to sin.

Proof?

 

[face2face]

Its you who need help.

I'm sensing strongly this thread is not seeing your usual engagement?

So many posts, questions and principles unanswered.

F2F