Adam & Eve

[face2face]

@Keiw

Adam's fear and his shame of nakedness revealed his moral state. The eating of the tree had obviously caused a moral deterioration. He was
now no longer "very good" having been stricken by sin.

But what was the Moral issue?

And the Lord God said, “Who told you that you were naked? Ge 3:10–11.

This was the real moral issue. Adam's sin was not in eating fruit as such, but in disobeying God's command. It is sufficient that God has
expressed His will; true love of God will respond accordingly, even though the worshipper does not comprehend why such a command is given.

What's important for you Keiw is to not so quickly discount the text and the lessons contained. It's essential for your understanding to apply the same integrity to this section as you do other parts of the Bible otherwise you miss the most important part of the Story.

F2F

 

[Keiw]

Keiw, there is no need for aggressive language here. We are looking into the Divine Principles which your God is teaching you. Don't resist....learn!

F2F

i Don't see any aggressive language, i stated fact= God handed to them life everlasting, never sick, never without, always happy, How much value does that have? He asked them to not do 1 single thing so they had free will and could choose out of love and respect for their creator to listen to him in all matters. Along comes one they knew nothing of, who did 0 for them, lied to them, yet took his side over their creators= stabbing God in the back.

 

[face2face]

None perfect who sinned will be saved. Satan and his angels were all perfect and chose sin-they are condemned to death already.

Again, you misrepresent the Word of God by calling them perfect. They were very good Keiw not perfect...Only One has ever been called Perfect. Matt 5:48

When a person tried to defend their position they can use extremes in their language which you have done twice now. Try to enter the Word to see what is going on in the account.

F2F

 

[Keiw]

@Keiw

Adam's fear and his shame of nakedness revealed his moral state. The eating of the tree had obviously caused a moral deterioration. He was
now no longer "very good" having been stricken by sin.

But what was the Moral issue?

And the Lord God said, “Who told you that you were naked? Ge 3:10–11.

This was the real moral issue. Adam's sin was not in eating fruit as such, but in disobeying God's command. It is sufficient that God has
expressed His will; true love of God will respond accordingly, even though the worshipper does not comprehend why such a command is given.

What's important for you Keiw is to not so quickly discount the text and the lessons contained. It's essential for your understanding to apply the same integrity to this section as you do other parts of the Bible otherwise you miss the most important part of the Story.

F2F

And God has shown with ones he called his sons=the fallen angel who was called satan and devil and the other fallen angels, all chose while perfect to stab God in the back perse, and are condemned to everlasting destruction in the lake of fire, Adam and Eve will be as well.

 

[Keiw]

And God has shown with ones he called his sons=the fallen angel who was called satan and devil and the other fallen angels, all chose while perfect to stab God in the back perse, and are condemned to everlasting destruction in the lake of fire, Adam and Eve will be as well. God is not partial God loved those fallen sons for centuries before Adam and Eve came along.

 

[face2face]

i Don't see any aggressive language, i stated fact= God handed to them life everlasting, never sick, never without, always happy, How much value does that have?

Hold on Keiw - The Apostle Paul states Adam was made of the Earth, Earthy (1 Cor 15:47)- do you believe God's intention was to have them in a mortal physical state like that forever?

He asked them to not do 1 single thing so they had free will and could choose out of love and respect for their creator to listen to him in all matters. Along comes one they knew nothing of, who did 0 for them, lied to them, yet took his side over their creators= stabbing God in the back.

Can you appreciate from my perspective how you are coming across? I'm sensing your judgements on them is causing you not to see what God is doing here.

It's as though your starting position on them is not God's

F2F

 

[face2face]

And God has shown with ones he called his sons=the fallen angel who was called satan and devil and the other fallen angels, all chose while perfect to stab God in the back perse, and are condemned to everlasting destruction in the lake of fire, Adam and Eve will be as well.

Yes I can see how this important doctrine is causing you some grief, in fact so much so you can't even speak to the text. It's shocking what false teaching does not only to the one who holds it but also to the Word itself.

F2F

 

[face2face]

I'll let you catch up @Keiw.

#10 & #21 are still with you.

God is doing a lot here with the first pair and the record is leading us to a wonderful work of God.

F2F

 

[Keiw]

Hold on Keiw - The Apostle Paul states Adam was made of the Earth, Earthy (1 Cor 15:47)- do you believe God's intention was to have them in a mortal physical state like that forever?

Can you appreciate from my perspective how you are coming across? I'm sensing your judgements on them is causing you not to see what God is doing here.

It's as though your starting position on them is not God's

F2F

I say its your views that are error. Yes mortal forever. Like all humans will be on earth in Gods kingdom.

 

[Keiw]

Yes I can see how this important doctrine is causing you some grief, in fact so much so you can't even speak to the text. It's shocking what false teaching does not only to the one who holds it but also to the Word itself.

F2F

I agree you believe false views on matters.

 

[face2face]

I say its your views that are error. Yes mortal forever. Like all humans will be on earth in Gods kingdom.

@Aunty Jane can you confirm this is JW belief? That the redeemed on earth will be flesh and blood people who live forever?

That no flesh should glory in his presence. 1 Corinthians 1:29-30

I think Keiw has cornered himself in this discussion and possibly not thought through the consequences of his belief.

Thanks
F2F

 

[face2face]

I'll let you catch up @Keiw.

#10 & #21 are still with you.

God is doing a lot here with the first pair and the record is leading us to a wonderful work of God.

F2F

The divine principles revealed in the above post still sit with you @Keiw

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Keiw @Aunty Jane

Here is the main sticking point for Keiw and it's one he has resisted since post 10!

Due to the introduction of sin, God was required to deal with this issue of "transgression of His law". The first pair needed to understand the severity of their actions and as result there first lesson, as sinners, is to learn that "without shedding of blood there is no remission (of sin)" Lev 17; Heb. 9:22; Matt 26:28.

An animal had to be killed and the blood shed.

A covering of God's choosing was required! Not mans!

Failure for either of you to acknowledge this, places you from the very beginning of the Bible, outside of what is the most fundamental doctrine and principle in the Word of God.

F2F

 

[Mark51]

Hey @Keiw (& @Aunty Jane )

In the past we have briefly discussed the JW teaching on A&E, and I wondered how it was that your denomination believes they cannot be saved. Is this a traditional view, or do you have evidence to support this belief.

F2F

Adam and Eve were perfect creatures, and since God’s command to them was explicit and understood by both, it is evident that their sinning was willful and was not excusable on the basis of any human weakness or imperfection.

The Mosaic Law contained this principle. (Numbers 35:31) Their sin amounted to the murder of their offspring, of whom now inherited their imperfection and death. Clearly, they deserved to die. It would have been contrary to God’s righteous principles for Him to apply the ransom in their behalf.

If God Almighty had forgiven their deliberate sin, it would really have made God a party to the wrongdoing. That would not have improved conditions on earth at all. (Compare Ecclesiastes 8:11). Furthermore, it would have resulted in disrespect for God on the part of his angelic sons, and it would mean that there was no real basis for hope of anything better.

Therefore, the sacrificed life of Jesus as “a corresponding ransom,” is not acceptable for the redemption of these sinners, but for the redemption of all mankind of which descended from Adam and Eve.

 

[Keiw]

Adam and Eve were perfect creatures, and since God’s command to them was explicit and understood by both, it is evident that their sinning was willful and was not excusable on the basis of any human weakness or imperfection.

The Mosaic Law contained this principle. (Numbers 35:31) Their sin amounted to the murder of their offspring, of whom now inherited their imperfection and death. Clearly, they deserved to die. It would have been contrary to God’s righteous principles for Him to apply the ransom in their behalf.

If God Almighty had forgiven their deliberate sin, it would really have made God a party to the wrongdoing. That would not have improved conditions on earth at all. (Compare Ecclesiastes 8:11). Furthermore, it would have resulted in disrespect for God on the part of his angelic sons, and it would mean that there was no real basis for hope of anything better.

Therefore, the sacrificed life of Jesus as “a corresponding ransom,” is not acceptable for the redemption of these sinners, but for the redemption of all mankind of which descended from Adam and Eve.

Nice points Mark51

 

[face2face]

Adam and Eve were perfect creatures, and since God’s command to them was explicit and understood by both, it is evident that their sinning was willful and was not excusable on the basis of any human weakness or imperfection.

The Mosaic Law contained this principle. (Numbers 35:31) Their sin amounted to the murder of their offspring, of whom now inherited their imperfection and death. Clearly, they deserved to die. It would have been contrary to God’s righteous principles for Him to apply the ransom in their behalf.

David committed the presumptuous sin and was forgiven.

19:13 Moreover, keep me from committing flagrant sins; do not allow such sins to control me. Then I will be blameless, and innocent of blatant rebellion Ps 19:13.

It's interesting that you go to the Law to justify your judgement...does this concern you?

What I mean, is you are able to use the Law to justify your position on A&E but you wont go to the Law to show a reasoning on how God dealt with their sin? "without the shedding of blood..."

It's as though you can only go so far and no further.

If God Almighty had forgiven their deliberate sin, it would really have made God a party to the wrongdoing.

You mean like David's sin with Bethsheba?

8:11 When a sentence is not executed at once against a crime, the human heart is encouraged to do evil. Ec 8:11.

What was the sentence on David? (lost a son = death Romans 6:23)
What was the sentence on A&E? (lost the garden = death Romans 6:23)

That would not have improved conditions on earth at all. (Compare Ecclesiastes 8:11). Furthermore, it would have resulted in disrespect for God on the part of his angelic sons, and it would mean that there was no real basis for hope of anything better.

So you are saying, God in forgiving David his blatant and presumptuous sin, lost respect from his ministering servants (angels)?

Yeah, nah, you don't believe that for a second!

Therefore, the sacrificed life of Jesus as “a corresponding ransom,” is not acceptable for the redemption of these sinners, but for the redemption of all mankind of which descended from Adam and Eve.

You have no basis for your belief, none whatsoever.

Allow me to ask you a question.

Why was an animal slain and the first pair clothed?

What was God teaching them?

I'm more interested in "how" you explain this account away.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Nice points Mark51

As we are finding these are points without foundation or premise in the Word of God. It's also worth noting you and @Mark51 both avoided this quote like the plague!

3:20 The man named his wife Eve, because she was the mother of all the living. 3:21 The Lord God made garments from skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them. Ge 3:20–21.

I'm going to take you deeper into the text now so fasten your seats belts did you notice (maybe you didnt!) that one significant item has been revealed to you?

First, is the use of the Covenant name: Yahweh Elohim.

Why would the Covenant name be used in relation to both Adam & Eve being clothed with the skin of an animal?

AND, what does the covenant name link back to in Genesis 3?

F2F

Post #10; #21 are still unanswered

@Aunty Jane you should be reading this exchange as it will guide you into Divine Principles you are yet to fully understand!!

 

[TheHC]

It’s always the course of wisdom, not to read into the account more than is there.

On some things, we’ll just have to wait & see.

The important things, we know. But even Jesus said He didn’t know everything.

 

[face2face]

It’s always the course of wisdom, not to read into the account more than is there.

On some things, we’ll just have to wait & see.

The important things, we know. But even Jesus said He didn’t know everything.

Now come on TheHC are you really going to go with that line of reasoning?

Have a go!

Who made the covering?
Why was the Covenant name used in Gen 3:21?
What did the name link back to in Gen 3?
What does the Covenant name link to in the future?

Surely these important principles are not hidden from you...elsewhere you have been sharp as a whip and now you appear cold?

F2F

 

[Mark51]

Nice points Mark51

Thank you! You encouraged me!