A Stone Of Stumbling

[fivesense]

You must distinguish true Jews from those that say they are Jews...and do lie. To know this is the key of David:
When Christ addressed the "Jews," while teaching of the unforgiveable sin, He was speaking to.....
Matthew 12:24,34 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.Christ further told us who these Pharisees actually were when He said.....
12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.They were those saying they were Jews but do lie. They were....
John 8:40-44 But now ye seek to kill Me, a Man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to Him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love Me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do ye not understand My speech? even because ye cannot hear My word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

What do you consider my armour that prevents further knowledge? How is it my "identity?"

Please continue to keep me directed towards Him. It's the best path to walk. :)

I know that it is difficult for you to apprehend this of me, that I correctly divide the word of truth based upon Paul's teachings, and that everything else the Holy Spirit has recorded in the Autographs are subject to his authority. I do not subscribe to the belief that all the Bible was written to me, and therefore all of it applies to me. I cannot do that without blowing a gasket. I am a Gentile, taught by the Apostle to the Gentiles from God. So if you quote Scriptures from the Hebrew Writings of the either the "Old" or "New Testament", I am obliged to confer with Paul first before concluding anything. Whatever he has taught or commanded takes precedence over all. He completed the word of God.

I do not believe the Unveiling of Jesus Christ to be directed to the Body of Christ, and it was written for the future Jewish ecclesia The nations, or Gentiles as the KJV occasions us, are barely mentioned, and when they are it is in subservience to Israel. It is all Truth, but not for today. To understand it has great reward, but by assigning it to my own Gentile sphere is an error, it is incomprehensible outside a Jewish setting.

If you can grasp these things which I speak of myself, we can go further in our discussions, which I would thoroughly enjoy.

When I first came to the Lord, it was all about me, and how well it was going for me compared to what I was doing on my own. Now I had a handle on life and the bull by the horns, so to speak.
Then, as I saw His hand in everthing, and I became more acutely aware of His presence in me and others, it was all about me and Him.
Now, since seeing myself exposed and disciplined over and over, non-stop since the start of the relationship, I have come to realize that it is not about me and Him, it is only about Him and Him alone. There is no room for me in this equation. I have suffered enough by thinking otherwise. To know Him and the power of His resurrection is all that matters, both to me and for you, and all who are the called and the chosen of Christ.

Your strength, your armour, is you mind and your intellect. It is highly honed and sharp. You are quick and discerning by reason of your exercises. But as I pointed out, that armour can also be a weapon formed against the One who seeks to acquire egress through our hearts and minds. It is a paradox, that the truth of God can become the enemy of God, should our minds be satisfied to dwell upon our strong armour and hold it in too high a regard above the humiliation of Christ imposing Himself upon our spirits.

fivesense

 

[whirlwind]

I know that it is difficult for you to apprehend this of me, that I correctly divide the word of truth based upon Paul's teachings, and that everything else the Holy Spirit has recorded in the Autographs are subject to his authority. I do not subscribe to the belief that all the Bible was written to me, and therefore all of it applies to me. I cannot do that without blowing a gasket. I am a Gentile, taught by the Apostle to the Gentiles from God. So if you quote Scriptures from the Hebrew Writings of the either the "Old" or "New Testament", I am obliged to confer with Paul first before concluding anything. Whatever he has taught or commanded takes precedence over all. He completed the word of God.

It is difficult to understand this FiveSense. The Word of Truth cannot be divided based on Paul's teachings for they do not differ from those of Christ. The gospel is the gospel.

1 Corinthians 1:12-14 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;​

I do not believe the Unveiling of Jesus Christ to be directed to the Body of Christ, and it was written for the future Jewish ecclesia The nations, or Gentiles as the KJV occasions us, are barely mentioned, and when they are it is in subservience to Israel. It is all Truth, but not for today. To understand it has great reward, but by assigning it to my own Gentile sphere is an error, it is incomprehensible outside a Jewish setting.

If you can grasp these things which I speak of myself, we can go further in our discussions, which I would thoroughly enjoy.

We differ greatly on this understanding. To me, He brings all believers into His realm not the other way around.

When I first came to the Lord, it was all about me, and how well it was going for me compared to what I was doing on my own. Now I had a handle on life and the bull by the horns, so to speak.
Then, as I saw His hand in everthing, and I became more acutely aware of His presence in me and others, it was all about me and Him.
Now, since seeing myself exposed and disciplined over and over, non-stop since the start of the relationship, I have come to realize that it is not about me and Him, it is only about Him and Him alone. There is no room for me in this equation. I have suffered enough by thinking otherwise. To know Him and the power of His resurrection is all that matters, both to me and for you, and all who are the called and the chosen of Christ.

I agree. It is about Him but that strengthens my belief in the Holy Writ, all of it, as being our guide. We are to come to Him on His terms. There is no difference in people that follow Him as He is no respecter of persons. [Acts 10:24, Romans 2:11, Ephesians 6:9, Colossians 3:25, 1Peter 1:17]. There should not be separate rules, divisions, for each sect....so says Paul.

1 Corinthians 1:9-10 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.​

Paul was sent to the Jew and Gentile but the "religious" folks controlling the Jews...the Pharisees (synagogue of Satan...not the true tribe of Judah) were "filled with envy." Paul was absconding with their congregation and...as they left so did their money and power base......

Acts 13:45-47 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.​

Multitudes followed Paul's teachings about Christ before he "turn to the Gentiles." Who were those multitudes if not the house of Judah - Jews? Who were the multitudes greeting Christ when He entered Jerusalem if not the Jews for they were there for the Passover?

John 12:12-13 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet Him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.​

There are Jews and then....there are Jews. Some Jews are of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin (house of Judah), some are of the religious faith, and some are simply residents of Judea. All three are termed Jew. Of them our Father tells us some are those that "say they are Jew and do lie." They are the synagogue of Satan! Those are the Jews that "saw the multitudes and were filled with envy."

The following three passages say to me that there is no difference in the teachings of Jesus Christ and Paul....

Galatians 1:6-8 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

1 Corinthians 10:31-33 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

Galatians 3:27-29 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.​

Your strength, your armour, is you mind and your intellect. It is highly honed and sharp. You are quick and discerning by reason of your exercises. But as I pointed out, that armour can also be a weapon formed against the One who seeks to acquire egress through our hearts and minds. It is a paradox, that the truth of God can become the enemy of God, should our minds be satisfied to dwell upon our strong armour and hold it in too high a regard above the humiliation of Christ imposing Himself upon our spirits.

fivesense

Dear FiveSense....how can truth ever be an enemy of God or a weapon against Him? If one searches for truth in His Word, for that is the only place to find it, then one would never dwell upon anything except the truth contained in those words. To me, our minds should be satisfied when He shows us these truths for it is His Spirit alone that can reveal them.


.

 

[fivesense]

It is difficult to understand this FiveSense. The Word of Truth cannot be divided based on Paul's teachings for they do not differ from those of Christ. The gospel is the gospel.

We differ greatly on this understanding. To me, He brings all believers into His realm not the other way around.

I agree. It is about Him but that strengthens my belief in the Holy Writ, all of it, as being our guide. We are to come to Him on His terms. There is no difference in people that follow Him as He is no respecter of persons. [Acts 10:24, Romans 2:11, Ephesians 6:9, Colossians 3:25, 1Peter 1:17]. There should not be separate rules, divisions, for each sect....so says Paul.

Paul was sent to the Jew and Gentile but the "religious" folks controlling the Jews...the Pharisees (synagogue of Satan...not the true tribe of Judah) were "filled with envy." Paul was absconding with their congregation and...as they left so did their money and power base......

Multitudes followed Paul's teachings about Christ before he "turn to the Gentiles." Who were those multitudes if not the house of Judah - Jews? Who were the multitudes greeting Christ when He entered Jerusalem if not the Jews for they were there for the Passover?

There are Jews and then....there are Jews. Some Jews are of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin (house of Judah), some are of the religious faith, and some are simply residents of Judea. All three are termed Jew. Of them our Father tells us some are those that "say they are Jew and do lie." They are the synagogue of Satan! Those are the Jews that "saw the multitudes and were filled with envy."

The following three passages say to me that there is no difference in the teachings of Jesus Christ and Paul....

Dear FiveSense....how can truth ever be an enemy of God or a weapon against Him? If one searches for truth in His Word, for that is the only place to find it, then one would never dwell upon anything except the truth contained in those words. To me, our minds should be satisfied when He shows us these truths for it is His Spirit alone that can reveal them.

I could easily dissect and pinpoint the basis of your deflections of what I present as truth. They are mostly found in incorrect division of the word of truth, as Paul admonished Timothy.

2Ti 2:14-18 . These things remind them of, testifying fully before the Lord-not to strive about words to nothing profitable, but to the subversion of those hearing; be diligent to present thyself approved to God-a workman irreproachable, rightly dividing the word of the truth; and the profane vain talkings stand aloof from, for to more impiety they will advance, and their word as a gangrene will have pasture, of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus,who concerning the truth did swerve, saying the rising again to have already been, and do overthrow the faith of some;

These two men whom Paul singled out by name did not say there was no such thing as a resurrection from the dead, they offered their opinion that it was already past and the last days had been entered into. While they continued in the truth, they did not remain faithful to the prophetic writings, and allowed themselves to be carried off in their imaginations with their own interpretations of what had been revealed by God. They assumed their own thoughts to be inspired, as if their thinking was as divine as and correct as Gods written record. Only God's word, correctly divided, produces qualification for a workman, and the ability to do that properly merits God's approval.

Knowledge of the Bible, without the understanding of how to correctly divide the word of truth, is useless in the hands of God. It sidelines a person and makes them unfit for service. The Pharisees had much sway over the masses because of their "knowledge" of the Scriptures, and the people being unable to correctly partition truth for themselves, or their unwillingness to do so, lead to the mass rejection of Messiah. Such is still the case today, where the masses of Christendom tend to allow others to interpret for them, alluding to "scholars' and "great men" for the basis of their understandings of God. That is an error and is an abdication of the calling of God to us. If what you or I believe cannot be testified to without the support of some other person's opinion, then what we believe is useless in the battle against darkness. If what we utter is not the truth, then let us stand before God and His people and take our lumps for our supposing ourselves to be the oracles of God. Should we be correct, then God will manifest it, that is His plan, to reveal His truth to His elect. We must stand on our own, without the aid of others, for our faith and understanding, or what we do have will be lost at the dais of Christ when what He built in us will be revealed. Whatever was contructed of men and "scholars" will disappear in the Light of Truth and find no place there. Such is the glory of Christ.

I would ask you to please consider the evidence of Paul. He declared there was a requirement and a mandate to follow as a believer. It is not an optional. It is required of God. That command is to correctly partition the word of truth. Until those of Christ's body understand the importance doing this, even on such a minor scale as Circumcision and uncircumcision truth, the like-mindedness and unity that God desires and Paul insists upon will forever remain a vaporous cloud without substance to it. Paul was and is the only apostle to the nations, ordained by the Christ out of heaven, and the last of the apostles seen of the Lord. What was revealed to Paul completed all of God's revelation to us. There is no other apostle for the nations.

I do not have the vigor that you have, whirlwind. The spiritual energy you retain is seen in all your postings. I very much enjoy what you uncover and bring out from the word. I will not be able to do anything but offer my perspective as a literalist and one who sees the different ministries of God to men. He has not treated us the same as He has Israel. The list of His graces to us would fill pages, and has, but what He has and will require of Israel according to promise must take place. We cannot board a ship that we have not paid the fare for, and the chosen people have their lot and inheritance. Our ship is celestial, heavenly and a new creation altogether and not of this earth. They do not mix without great loss to us. These are the facts and the reality of partitioning the word of truth.

fivesense

 

[veteran]

I think it's time to reveal some of the doctrines of where 'fivesense' is coming from.

It is primarily doctrines of Dispensationalism (which there are separations within that too).

Some Dispensationalists, like C.R. Stam, treat ONLY Paul's Epistles having to do with Christ's Salvation to the Gentiles. Everthing else is only written for Jews. Israel is treated as an entire separate entity from Paul's Gospel. What it boils down to is those like Stam try to create a whole other gospel different than The One Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It is a convoluted doctrine, an idea that there is one gospel for Jews, and a whole other gospel just for Gentiles, i.e., the false idea of two different gospels.

One of the main Scriptures they abuse is Galatians 2:7-8 about Peter taking The Gospel to the circumcision, and Paul taking The Gospel to the uncircumcision. Instead of interpreting that Scripture rightly as two administrations of the One Gospel, Peter preaching to Jews, and Paul preaching to Gentiles, they wrongly interpret it to actually mean two DIFFERENT gospels.

This is the reason for those type of Dispensationalists rejecting the Book of Hebrews, while also rejecting any idea that Apostle Paul had any connection with writing Hebrews. It's addressed to Hebrews, so automatically that means it's not a Book written for the Gentile Church, per their view.

And yes, they also create a division with the idea of two Churches, one for believing Israel, and another for believing Gentiles (based on their same interpretation of Gal.2:7-8 about a twin-gospel).

Bullinger himself had hints of this doctrine, since those ideas of Dispensationalism grew out of the era he lived in Britain, along with ideas of the Pre-trib "secret rapture" theory via Edward Irving and John Darby.

To the extreme, the idea is that even the Four Gospel Books don't apply to Gentile Christians, but to Israel only; nor do any of the Books of the Old Testament prophets apply to Gentiles per their views. Only Paul's Epistles do they consider as important for themselves. This is why those of us who are studied in all of God's Word will always be at odds with their false doctrines, for we choose not to chop up God's Word. Doing so is indeed a great sign of how God's Word has become "a stone of stumbling" and "rock of offense" for them, for they are forced to omit much of God's Truth out of their faith.

I think the origin of that Dispensationalist doctrine grew out of a need for those on the Pre-trib doctrine to try and reconcile the Bible evidence of the 144,000 sealed elect servants of Israel going through the great tribulation. Per that doctrine, the Gentile Church is raptured out before the tribulation, while Israel is left on earth. One can mark that view within the posts of 'fivesense' also.

Bullinger separated Israel apart from the Gentile Church, with the Gentile Church being 'raptured' out before the tribulation while Israel is left-behind to go through the tribulation and be converted to Christ. Yet that's not what Scripture reveals, showing even an excellent Christian scholar like Bullinger was deceived into the newness of the pre-trib doctrines that became popular in his days that originated in 1830's Britain.

Thus the idea is very simple. The Bible shows evidence of a group of Christians being persecuted during the tribulation. So create a clean separation between those and say they represent only the believers of Israel (Israelite Church), while the Gentile Church is raptured out not going through the tribulation. This is also why you'll find those Dispensationalists not willing to admit the 2nd group in Revelation 7:9 forward about saved Gentiles going through the tribulation also, having made their robes white in the Blood of The Lamb, showing they did that by going through the tribulation.

The real Scripture evidence, especially in the Book of Acts, AND within Paul's Epistles, is that there is only ONE Church in Jesus Christ, made up of both believing Israelite and believing Gentile, both together as One Body in Christ. When Paul preached to Gentiles, he also preached to Jews, as per Acts. And God first revealed through Peter that Christ's Salvation was to go to the Gentiles also, as Peter was actually the first Apostle to preach The Gospel specifically to Gentiles (Acts 10).

In Paul's Epistles, he consistently quoted from the Old Testament Books of the prophets about Christ's Salvation, prophecy that especially included Messages to the children of Israel. Only certain prophecies in those prophets he quoted included the idea of Salvation also going to the Gentiles (like in Isaiah). The majority of it was to and about Israel. Paul's commission was to show how believing Gentiles were to be included along WITH believing Israel, not apart separate from Israel.

Their Dispensationalist doctrines show just how far they're willing to go in trying to deceive the unlearned in God's Word into the false doctrines of a Pre-trib "secret rapture".

 

[whirlwind]

I could easily dissect and pinpoint the basis of your deflections of what I present as truth. They are mostly found in incorrect division of the word of truth, as Paul admonished Timothy.

But FiveSense....you seldom do dissect and pinpoint. I give you Scripture, which I don't believe is deflection at all, and you consider it incorrect division. Why?

2Ti 2:14-18 . These things remind them of, testifying fully before the Lord-not to strive about words to nothing profitable, but to the subversion of those hearing; be diligent to present thyself approved to God-a workman irreproachable, rightly dividing the word of the truth; and the profane vain talkings stand aloof from, for to more impiety they will advance, and their word as a gangrene will have pasture, of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus,who concerning the truth did swerve, saying the rising again to have already been, and do overthrow the faith of some;

These two men whom Paul singled out by name did not say there was no such thing as a resurrection from the dead, they offered their opinion that it was already past and the last days had been entered into. While they continued in the truth, they did not remain faithful to the prophetic writings, and allowed themselves to be carried off in their imaginations with their own interpretations of what had been revealed by God. They assumed their own thoughts to be inspired, as if their thinking was as divine as and correct as Gods written record. Only God's word, correctly divided, produces qualification for a workman, and the ability to do that properly merits God's approval.

Knowledge of the Bible, without the understanding of how to correctly divide the word of truth, is useless in the hands of God. It sidelines a person and makes them unfit for service. The Pharisees had much sway over the masses because of their "knowledge" of the Scriptures, and the people being unable to correctly partition truth for themselves, or their unwillingness to do so, lead to the mass rejection of Messiah. Such is still the case today, where the masses of Christendom tend to allow others to interpret for them, alluding to "scholars' and "great men" for the basis of their understandings of God. That is an error and is an abdication of the calling of God to us. If what you or I believe cannot be testified to without the support of some other person's opinion, then what we believe is useless in the battle against darkness. If what we utter is not the truth, then let us stand before God and His people and take our lumps for our supposing ourselves to be the oracles of God. Should we be correct, then God will manifest it, that is His plan, to reveal His truth to His elect. We must stand on our own, without the aid of others, for our faith and understanding, or what we do have will be lost at the dais of Christ when what He built in us will be revealed. Whatever was contructed of men and "scholars" will disappear in the Light of Truth and find no place there. Such is the glory of Christ.

You have alluded to this before. Who is it you believe I receive understanding from? What man? What group? What "aid of others?" The only one I have ever mentioned is Bullinger for it is the Companion Bible I study from but....as you can surely tell I don't follow Bullinger's theories. As I've said before, I greatly admire his scholarship in Biblical knowledge....Hebrew, Greek, etc. but I NEVER rely on interpretation from him or any man. So I agree, "whatever was constructed of men and scholars will disappear in the Light of Truth." But...that has nothing to do with the Scriptures I posted on this subject for they were not of man or scholar.

I would ask you to please consider the evidence of Paul. He declared there was a requirement and a mandate to follow as a believer. It is not an optional. It is required of God. That command is to correctly partition the word of truth. Until those of Christ's body understand the importance doing this, even on such a minor scale as Circumcision and uncircumcision truth, the like-mindedness and unity that God desires and Paul insists upon will forever remain a vaporous cloud without substance to it. Paul was and is the only apostle to the nations, ordained by the Christ out of heaven, and the last of the apostles seen of the Lord. What was revealed to Paul completed all of God's revelation to us. There is no other apostle for the nations.

I have tried to "consider the evidence of Paul" FiveSense but I see nothing written in his letters that leads me to believe as you do. Quite the contrary.

I do not have the vigor that you have, whirlwind. The spiritual energy you retain is seen in all your postings. I very much enjoy what you uncover and bring out from the word. I will not be able to do anything but offer my perspective as a literalist and one who sees the different ministries of God to men. He has not treated us the same as He has Israel. The list of His graces to us would fill pages, and has, but what He has and will require of Israel according to promise must take place. We cannot board a ship that we have not paid the fare for, and the chosen people have their lot and inheritance. Our ship is celestial, heavenly and a new creation altogether and not of this earth. They do not mix without great loss to us. These are the facts and the reality of partitioning the word of truth.

fivesense

The facts are as written.....

Ephesians 2:11-15 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

2:16-19 And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;


3:2-4 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation He made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:​

Paul didn't preach a different gospel...he warned against that...but he did reveal a mystery unknown before it was revealed to him. That is that the "Gentiles should be fellowheirs." They are of the same body, the One Body of Christ. Not separate...Israel here and Gentiles there but One Body In Christ.

This is not interpretation on anyone's part nor is it an incorrect division of truth. It is truth. Please dissect the above and show me how you can gain any understanding from it other than that Gentiles are fellow heirs with Israel. There is no separation mentioned nor do I see any type of separation mentioned in any other passages.

In short...I just don't understand why you see this as you do but....I remain your friend in Christ and look forward to your posts.

 

[fivesense]

I think it's time to reveal some of the doctrines of where 'fivesense' is coming from.

If there is error in the things that I post, I welcome those opportunities to address them, based upon the word of God. There is much to be gleaned from any efforts to obtain truth, whether through instruction, or reproof, or exhortation. The word of God is alive and active and powerful to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit.

There is little that casting unfounded dispersions upon another member of the Body of Christ can do other than to reinforce the biases and prejudices against the truth that already existed before the ungracious activity begins. There is no skill, no merit, and nothing noble in foisting a label upon someone as an attempt to noose them and drag them off. It is carnal. The term"Dispensationalist" is not scriptural. However, the term dispensation is. It occurs over 18 times in the "New Testament", and four times in the Common Version. By turning it into a label of judgment, it becomes the tool of the Adversary, and that is a fine thing to have accomplished, isn't it?

I posit Peter's summation of those who would be teachers. It is a challenge he set forth to those who would presume to be gifted above others, and have a monopoly on God's word, and do not seek edification of the whole.

1Pt 4:11 If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [let him do it] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[fivesense]

But FiveSense....you seldom do dissect and pinpoint. I give you Scripture, which I don't believe is deflection at all, and you consider it incorrect division. Why?
You have alluded to this before. Who is it you believe I receive understanding from? What man? What group? What "aid of others?"
I have tried to "consider the evidence of Paul" FiveSense but I see nothing written in his letters that leads me to believe as you do. Quite the contrary.

Paul didn't preach a different gospel...he warned against that...but he did reveal a mystery unknown before it was revealed to him. That is that the "Gentiles should be fellowheirs." They are of the same body, the One Body of Christ. Not separate...Israel here and Gentiles there but One Body In Christ.

In short...I just don't understand why you see this as you do but....I remain your friend in Christ and look forward to your posts.

Let's start with the basics.

Ga 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;

One plus one equals two. One gospel of the uncircumcision, and one gospel of the circumcision. Two evangels, not one and the same. It is right here, in the Scriptures. Don't go forward, and don't go backwards. Start right here and explain how one plus one can equal one from your understanding. I can read, I can apprehend, and I can manage to see two different gospels being spoken of here, just like Holy Spirit records. Now, what testimony has the Holy Spirit given to us that is contrary to this passage? I have heard all the "reasons" why there isn't two evangels being mentioned here, though it stares you right in the face.

Now, what will you say to me to deflect this passage which clearly marks out two evangels? Will you take me round about the "New Testament" in search of passages that speak of an evangel, use the term gospel in the singular, and point here and there in the Book saying "Look, look, only one is mentioned"?

I will tell you in advance, the Scriptures do not say there is "only one Gospel". Men say that, men's disciples say that, and Christendom at large may say that, but the Word of God says differently.

I say, What does Galatians 2:7 say?

What do you say?
fivesense

 

[whirlwind]

Let's start with the basics.

Ga 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;

One plus one equals two. One gospel of the uncircumcision, and one gospel of the circumcision. Two evangels, not one and the same. It is right here, in the Scriptures. Don't go forward, and don't go backwards. Start right here and explain how one plus one can equal one from your understanding. I can read, I can apprehend, and I can manage to see two different gospels being spoken of here, just like Holy Spirit records. Now, what testimony has the Holy Spirit given to us that is contrary to this passage? I have heard all the "reasons" why there isn't two evangels being mentioned here, though it stares you right in the face.

Now, what will you say to me to deflect this passage which clearly marks out two evangels? Will you take me round about the "New Testament" in search of passages that speak of an evangel, use the term gospel in the singular, and point here and there in the Book saying "Look, look, only one is mentioned"?

I will tell you in advance, the Scriptures do not say there is "only one Gospel". Men say that, men's disciples say that, and Christendom at large may say that, but the Word of God says differently.

I say, What does Galatians 2:7 say?

What do you say?
fivesense

This is blunt but I say....you aren't properly understanding what is written. I also say you cannot take one verse and understand. You must go forward and backward to achieve full meaning. You must see the context in which it was placed. You see two gospels where I see two types of people to whom the ONE gospel is preached. The gospel is preached by Peter to those of the circumcision. The same gospel is preached by Paul to those of the uncircumcision...Gentiles. To substantiate this understanding consider the following verses.....

Galatians 2:7-9 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

2:14-1 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.​

The chapter is all about Jew and Gentile, two peoples, not two gospels. There are not various gospels mentioned but rather two groups to teach. They are the wild and natural olive trees grafted together.


The differences, to my mind, between Peter and Paul are those they were sent to. Peter finally understood that Gentiles were "clean" after the lowered sheet incident. Paul was given the revelation to take His Word (the same word) to the heathen/unclean/Gentiles. He also was given to understand the spirit of the written Word. Did the twelve? I don't know but Paul tells us.....

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.​

He taught the law but not just what was written but the spirit of the law. Case in point...that circumcision was of the heart.

There is no need for the Scriptures to say "only one Gospel" for it is understood. He is the Word. The Word is written. He foretold us all things. There are not two gospels. There are two groups to be brought together to form One Body in Christ.


.

 

[fivesense]

This is blunt but I say....you aren't properly understanding what is written. I also say you cannot take one verse and understand. You must go forward and backward to achieve full meaning. You must see the context in which it was placed. You see two gospels where I see two types of people to whom the ONE gospel is preached. The gospel is preached by Peter to those of the circumcision. The same gospel is preached by Paul to those of the uncircumcision...Gentiles. To substantiate this understanding consider the following verses.....

Galatians 2:7-9 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

2:14-1 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.​

The chapter is all about Jew and Gentile, two peoples, not two gospels. There are not various gospels mentioned but rather two groups to teach. They are the wild and natural olive trees grafted together.


The differences, to my mind, between Peter and Paul are those they were sent to. Peter finally understood that Gentiles were "clean" after the lowered sheet incident. Paul was given the revelation to take His Word (the same word) to the heathen/unclean/Gentiles. He also was given to understand the spirit of the written Word. Did the twelve? I don't know but Paul tells us.....

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.​

He taught the law but not just what was written but the spirit of the law. Case in point...that circumcision was of the heart.

There is no need for the Scriptures to say "only one Gospel" for it is understood. He is the Word. The Word is written. He foretold us all things. There are not two gospels. There are two groups to be brought together to form One Body in Christ.


.

O.K., you are right. I defer.
fivesense

 

[Paul]

This is blunt but I say....you aren't properly understanding what is written. I also say you cannot take one verse and understand. You must go forward and backward to achieve full meaning. You must see the context in which it was placed. You see two gospels where I see two types of people to whom the ONE gospel is preached. The gospel is preached by Peter to those of the circumcision. The same gospel is preached by Paul to those of the uncircumcision...Gentiles. To substantiate this understanding consider the following verses.....

...

There is no need for the Scriptures to say "only one Gospel" for it is understood. He is the Word. The Word is written. He foretold us all things. There are not two gospels. There are two groups to be brought together to form One Body in Christ.


.

whirlwind, you are absolutely right. There is ONE Gospel and two ministries. There are several other important areas that have not been mentioned in this topic.

Paul’s call was from the Lord and it is given in Acts:
Act 9:11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
Act 9:12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
Act 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
Act 9:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Paul was to minister to “the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel,” NOT just to the Gentiles.

Also, the Gospels and part of Acts are written in the Dispensation of Law, The Dispensation of Grace starts during Acts after the Israelites reject the Kingdom proclamation. Once the Dispensation of Grace starts there is NO Jew nor Greek, Gal 3:28. And the Gentiles are grafted in.

 

[whirlwind]

O.K., you are right. I defer.
fivesense

This isn't about who is right or wrong. It is about His Word and what His Word tells us. I have the strong feeling you don't at all "defer" but don't care to discuss it further. If you don't see the Galatians verses as I see them please explain why. We both look for the truth.

 

[fivesense]

This isn't about who is right or wrong. It is about His Word and what His Word tells us. I have the strong feeling you don't at all "defer" but don't care to discuss it further. If you don't see the Galatians verses as I see them please explain why. We both look for the truth.

You are not right about my response. I do indeed defer to your opinion. I have not the strength, nor the ability to serve you in this issue. I am sorry.

fivesense

 

[whirlwind]

You are not right about my response. I do indeed defer to your opinion. I have not the strength, nor the ability to serve you in this issue. I am sorry.

fivesense

I am disappointed that you feel you need to "serve me." It is truth and understanding we seek in these discussions and in doing so we serve God.

 

[fivesense]

I am disappointed that you feel you need to "serve me." It is truth and understanding we seek in these discussions and in doing so we serve God.

I agree with you whirwind. Being of one mind and one accord is the ideal and the objective. This is the only display that the powers and pricipalities which now rule the celestials will understand. Their opposition to God through the use of human sentiments and reasonings is recorded from the beginning of this age, and their ability to manipulate the truth is known by our own personal experiences. We are privilaged to be a part of the reconciliation of the Son, Who will subdue all things according to the mighty working the the power that raised Him out from among the dead ones. We, too, share in that power, and will one day wield it among the celestials in the heavens along side the Christ of God. It is taken lightly by us.

It is interesting to me that you would consider my "service" to you as disappointing. We have been called to do so, and it is perfectly in order to seek to do that among one another in faith. I regard all that you post and offer to us as service. If you chose to refuse to "serve" me in the truth of God, then my suffering would be sure and my loss great. Please do not ever feel the need to cease serving me in the truth, whirlwind, as it has been placed in your heart. If I offend, please enlighten me, and I will seek to make things right between us, that the nourishment can continue, and the Head can be glorified.

fivesense

 

[veteran]

Biblical support for only one Gospel in the Gal.2 passage actually is given right within it.


Gal 2:7-8
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For He That wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
(KJV)

That "apostleship of the circumcision" is about a commission within The Gospel. It does not mean a whole other separate Gospel. Paul clarified his meaning of verse 7 in that parenthesis of verse 8.

Those two verses go together, and should not be separated. Taking one verse out of God's Word and trying to interpret it by itself while leaving out the rest of Scripture context is dangerous.

 

[fivesense]

Biblical support for only one Gospel in the Gal.2 passage actually is given right within it.


Gal 2:7-8
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For He That wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
(KJV)

That "apostleship of the circumcision" is about a commission within The Gospel. It does not mean a whole other separate Gospel. Paul clarified his meaning of verse 7 in that parenthesis of verse 8.

Those two verses go together, and should not be separated. Taking one verse out of God's Word and trying to interpret it by itself while leaving out the rest of Scripture context is dangerous.

Ro 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Ro 16:25 . Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2Ti 2:8 . Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Care to unscripturally explain these passage? Or why Holy Spirit would require Paul to make this distinction? You do very good at intellectualizing the word of God. I am interested in seeing how your mind works, as it exhibits keeness and intractability.

fivesense

 

[Paul]

Ro 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Ro 16:25 . Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2Ti 2:8 . Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Care to unscripturally explain these passage? Or why Holy Spirit would require Paul to make this distinction? You do very good at intellectualizing the word of God. I am interested in seeing how your mind works, as it exhibits keeness and intractability.

fivesense

Now I see why there has been confusion: it is the same Gospel (Romans 1:1-6) with the addition of the “Mystery of God’s Grace (Romans 16:25-26).

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Rom 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:


Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Paul’s message is the Gospel (the Good News of Jesus Christ) and the Mystery of Grace.

 

[whirlwind]

I agree with you whirwind. Being of one mind and one accord is the ideal and the objective. This is the only display that the powers and pricipalities which now rule the celestials will understand. Their opposition to God through the use of human sentiments and reasonings is recorded from the beginning of this age, and their ability to manipulate the truth is known by our own personal experiences. We are privilaged to be a part of the reconciliation of the Son, Who will subdue all things according to the mighty working the the power that raised Him out from among the dead ones. We, too, share in that power, and will one day wield it among the celestials in the heavens along side the Christ of God. It is taken lightly by us.

It is interesting to me that you would consider my "service" to you as disappointing. We have been called to do so, and it is perfectly in order to seek to do that among one another in faith. I regard all that you post and offer to us as service. If you chose to refuse to "serve" me in the truth of God, then my suffering would be sure and my loss great. Please do not ever feel the need to cease serving me in the truth, whirlwind, as it has been placed in your heart. If I offend, please enlighten me, and I will seek to make things right between us, that the nourishment can continue, and the Head can be glorified.

fivesense

You are correct FiveSense. We are His servants and as such we are to wash each other's feet. The "disappointment" I feel is in how you handle the soap and water on this issue. You asked about the Galatians verse and I answered you. I would appreciate a response other than, "I have not the strength, nor the ability to serve you in this issue. I am sorry."

Everything I see points to the opposite conclusion from what you are teaching. I provide Scriptural documentation and you don't answer them. You ask a question and when I answer you give the above reply. Does that "glorify the Head?" Does that "edify one another?" We can learn from each other but shouldn't the matter be discussed so the proper conclusion is reached. If I am in error I want to know where it is and I assume the same for you. Truth is the goal and I am quite willing to admit I am wrong but it must be found in His Word.

Perhaps we have reached the point where we must agree to disagree. :)

 

[veteran]

Now I see why there has been confusion: it is the same Gospel (Romans 1:1-6) with the addition of the “Mystery of God’s Grace (Romans 16:25-26).

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Rom 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:


Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Paul’s message is the Gospel (the Good News of Jesus Christ) and the Mystery of Grace.

There's Apostle Paul referring to "apostleship" again, and not just to his apostleship in The Gospel, but also that of the other Apostles.

2 Tim 2:8
8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
(KJV)

Was Jesus raised from the dead according to the Gospel given to Apostle Paul? Yes. Was Jesus raised from the dead according to the Gospel given to Apostle Peter, and John, and Matthew, and Mark, and Luke, etc.? Yes. Same Gospel.

 

[Paul]

There's Apostle Paul referring to "apostleship" again, and not just to his apostleship in The Gospel, but also that of the other Apostles.

2 Tim 2:8
8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
(KJV)

Was Jesus raised from the dead according to the Gospel given to Apostle Paul? Yes. Was Jesus raised from the dead according to the Gospel given to Apostle Peter, and John, and Matthew, and Mark, and Luke, etc.? Yes. Same Gospel.

That is what I said, they all preached the Gospel, Paul's message was the Gospel (The Good News = Christ's death and resurrection) and the mystery of God's Grace. The Dispensation of Grace begins towards the end of Acts after the proclamation was made and rejected.