Why are you insulting us? I don't know about Stephen, but I haven't insulted you. And why are you upset with us for believing that God is great, loving, merciful, capable, and intent on saving all of his creation?
A rather rhetorical question for the "Hell is FOREVER" crowd
- Thread starter Patrick1966
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If you are someone also who believes the same way in looking at it that way, please never let anyone take your peace and contentment away from you by what God has established. And perhaps it is what it really meant whenever it is said, that all shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
And if that is the case, I believe those that are inside the kingdom will be able to go and work on behalf of God by the spirit of Christ in the heavenly realm to go out to those who are outside the kingdom and be able to help them, perhaps realize the truth, but it may take them some time to really even wanna go through that fire because it hurts.
That fire is given to us today, and it burns away the flesh mortifying it to live by the spirit and it hurts.
Anything that of loss hurts but God won’t lose nobody even though they will be hurt and that hurt won’t be by God.
That hurt is by truth.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Who says I am upset.
As I have tried to explained to you two, I do not have any stress in my ministry. I do not care if you believe me or not. I do not care if you go to Hell or not. That is the concern and stress of a preacher.
But it should concern you that you find the truth insulting. Like I said, I am glad I do not have religion were I have to twist the scriptures to convince people that the scriptures do not say what they mean. And that is main effort of the Jehovah's Wittenesses....to twist the meaning of the scriptures. They work hard at it....I am an eyewitness.
My aunt was Jehovah's Witness, I watched them huddle together in the Kingdom Halls plotting and practicing to explain away the scriptures. Teach the young ones how to deceive people as they went door to door so they would not be kicked off the porch right away. Rehearsing the words to use to deceive people. Presenting a KJV Bible like they believe what it says....and once in, the tap dancing begins. A religion of deception.
In a military court you do not get sentenced.....you get awarded.....because you worked for it and deserve it. Well the Jehovah's Witnesses have work for what they will get and they deserve it.
Thank you. I'm not hurt, upset, or angered by another's lack of belief or a misunderstanding of the scriptures. I feel pity for them because they misunderstand the nature of God.
Amen. Why are so many of our brothers and sisters so unable to see the truth which is freely given to them through the gospel?
Philippians 2:10-11 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved
My brother, nobody here is saying that people don't go to Hell. We're simply saying that they don't go there FOREVER. Also, you seem to misunderstand the purpose of Hell. Yes, Hell is punitive but it is punitive for the purpose of correction. People are sent there to be fixed. God is a refiner, not a destroyer.
Verses that relate to refining, purification, etc:
Malachi 3:2-3 esv
But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord.
1 John 3:3 esv
And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.
Mark 9:49
For everyone will be salted with fire.
Hebrews 1:3 ESV
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Zechariah 13:9
And I will put this third into the fire,
and refine them as one refines silver,
and test them as gold is tested.
They will call upon my name,
and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are my people’;
and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”
1 Peter 1:7 esv
So that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 1:25 esv
I will turn my hand against you and will smelt away your dross as with lye and remove all your alloy.
Isaiah 48:10 esv
Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction
Psalm 66:10 esv
For you, O God, have tested us; you have tried us as silver is tried.
Proverbs 17:3 esv
The crucible is for silver, and the furnace is for gold, and the Lord tests hearts.
Job 23:10 esv
But he knows the way that I take; when he has tried me, I shall come out as gold.
Jeremiah 9:7 esv
Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts: “Behold, I will refine them and test them, for what else can I do, because of my people?
Jeremiah 6:29 esv
The bellows blow fiercely; the lead is consumed by the fire; in vain the refining goes on, for the wicked are not removed.
Proverbs 25:4 esv
Take away the dross from the silver, and the smith has material for a vessel
Revelation 19:20 YLT
and the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were cast -- the two -- to the lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone
2 Corinthians 3:18 esv
And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
Revelation 20:10 YLT and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.
Revelation 3:18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.
1 Peter 5:10 And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
Ezekiel 22:18-22 Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to me; all of them are bronze and tin and iron and lead in the furnace; they are dross of silver. Therefore thus says the Lord God: Because you have all become dross, therefore, behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. As one gathers silver and bronze and iron and lead and tin into a furnace, to blow the fire on it in order to melt it, so I will gather you in my anger and in my wrath, and I will put you in and melt you. I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of my wrath, and you shall be melted in the midst of it. As silver is melted in a furnace, so you shall be melted in the midst of it, and you shall know that I am the Lord; I have poured out my wrath upon you.”
(Note: The Book of Ezekiel was written five or six hundred years before Christ appeared. Again, notice how various authors of scripture all say the same things. That is because of God!)
Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times.
Revelation 14:10 He also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Start your own religion....It would be easier than all the tap dancing and false claims.
I gave you all the scriptures but I know they do not matter to you.....all they are to you is something to twist or explain away.
The scriptures in the Bible are talking about eternal punishment not temporary correction or rehabilitation. What you are describing is something like purgatory.
The time to repent is while you are alive.....after Judgment it is eternal....up or down.
Your only chance of eternal life is to abandon the Jehovah's Witnesses and find a real church.
2 Peter 2:8
The Biblical definition of "torment" is to test.
8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)—
The Biblical definition of "torment" is to test.
8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)—
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Is this a real question?
Sulfur in burn wounds.....that is what they are alluding to.....how that all works I do not know.
I don't understand your hostility.
In any event, sulfur is mentioned because the author(s) is trying to make an analogy as it was commonly known in that era that sulfur was/is a compound used for REFINING.
Here is a more technical, detailed, explanation:
Typical copper dross , the byproduct of lead bullion pyrometallurgical refining for copper removal, mainly contains Pb, Cu, S, As, Sb and Sn etc. In traditional treatment process, copper dross is transformed to be copper matte by smelting with iron scarp and iron pyrite.
Removal of Sulfur from Copper Dross Generated by Refining Lead
Typical copper drossCopper dross , the byproduct of lead bullion pyrometallurgical refining for copper removal, mainly contains Pb, Cu, S, As, Sb and Sn etc. In traditional treatment process, copper drossCopper dross is transformed to be copper matte by smelting...
link.springer.com
Ephesians 4:32 ESV
Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
You guys are slow learners.....your schemes will not work on me. I know the languages.
I know what the word means. Not sure what it means in this context.....Lake of fire is temporary until they are moved to hell?....it is not explained.
Put this is motif operandi of the Jehovah's' Witnesses....comb through the scripture to see if they can find a weakness in the truth. There are plenty of scriptures hell as eternal.....that hell fire is eternal.....that the punishment is eternal as in forever burning. See ya, would not want to be ya!
Christ and the Apostles did not describe hell as temporary or a place of rebilitation, the concept is false and ludicrous.
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
We are not metal. But thank you for trying to twist the scriptureI don't understand your hostility.
In any event, sulfur is mentioned because the author(s) is trying to make an analogy as it was commonly known in that era that sulfur was/is a compound used for REFINING.
Here is a more technical, detailed, explanation:
Typical copper dross , the byproduct of lead bullion pyrometallurgical refining for copper removal, mainly contains Pb, Cu, S, As, Sb and Sn etc. In traditional treatment process, copper dross is transformed to be copper matte by smelting with iron scarp and iron pyrite.
Removal of Sulfur from Copper Dross Generated by Refining Lead
Typical copper drossCopper dross , the byproduct of lead bullion pyrometallurgical refining for copper removal, mainly contains Pb, Cu, S, As, Sb and Sn etc. In traditional treatment process, copper drossCopper dross is transformed to be copper matte by smelting...
It’s due to either biases, or what they desire to believe due to traditions of man, @Patrick1966.
My only passion is really the return of Christ and making people aware of the ability to have faith he came back to the first Christian’s who were promised such a feat, only once and never again.
When it comes to people who believe God will flame people alive and have enjoyment in it, is rather dumb.
You’re smart in learning about those things such as sulfur and brimstone (rubbing soap), that scrubs away or burn away the darkness.
But I don’t care these days; about Hell; I’ll tell people I don’t believe that people go there anymore because of the victory of Christ and will explain two resurrections and the inside and outside of the kingdom.
My only passion is really the return of Christ and making people aware of the ability to have faith he came back to the first Christian’s who were promised such a feat, only once and never again.
When it comes to people who believe God will flame people alive and have enjoyment in it, is rather dumb.
You’re smart in learning about those things such as sulfur and brimstone (rubbing soap), that scrubs away or burn away the darkness.
But I don’t care these days; about Hell; I’ll tell people I don’t believe that people go there anymore because of the victory of Christ and will explain two resurrections and the inside and outside of the kingdom.
I think pride, ego, and arrogance get in the way. They cannot accept that their understanding is erroneous.
I always struggled with the nonsensical doctrine that people would be made to suffer a horrible existence FOREVER. It was only about a year ago that I came across a guy who explained in a video about how most English translations of the Bible are inaccurate, particularly with the word aion. He then showed the correct translations and it was as if I experienced an epiphany. thereafter I began searching, and finding, countless verses in the Bible, by varying authors separated by centuries and by geography, who told us that God saves everybody!
I'm thankful that my eyes were opened to the truth. God is great. God is merciful. God is love. God refines and fixes his creation; he doesn't throw them away as if they are garbage.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
God does not send His children to eternal suffering. He only sends those children of Satan, after first offering them adoption, if they refuse and insist on staying with their own father.
