A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[MonoBiblical]

Any thoughts on the "shall be called?"

He was the wonderful one who consults (Participle) the Mighty God and the Everlasting Father. Any thoughts on the participle?

 

[face2face]

He was the wonderful one who consults (Participle) the Mighty God and the Everlasting Father. Any thoughts on the participle?

I'll take that as a no then?

 

[face2face]

@MonoBiblical

It's interesting how you can frame a question like the one below from Isaiah 9:6 and find so many dismiss it without any effort whatsoever. The command to "prove all things" has been changed to "only prove those things which conform to your beliefs", which is why a question like this one falls through the Christians hands to the ground, because why would they seek knowledge which undermines their own paradigm?

How is it possible for Christ to bear the title, "everlasting Father" in the Kingdom Age, and not be God Himself?

1. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
2. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I can immediately think of two.

Please provide quotations to support your claim.

Enjoy

F2F

 

[MonoBiblical]

I'll take that as a no then?

It is in perfect tense in hebrew and is not a consecutive future. That doesn't mean it wasn't a prediction. You fail to notice the participle which makes mighty God, Everlasting Father an object of same participle.

 

[face2face]

That doesn't mean it wasn't a prediction.

You mean a prophecy right? You believe it's a prophecy speaking of a future fulfillment? Maybe you should be clearer with you inferences?

Let me ask you a question.

Would you see 1 Cor 15:22-28 being a commentary on Isa. 9:6?

Yes or no?

If yes, what does that section of Scripture teach you about God, Christ and his Government?

If no, explain where in the NT would you see the writers draw on Isaiah 9:6 (assuming you a standard trinitarian believer)

F2F

 

[MonoBiblical]

@face2face

Would you see 1 Cor 15:22-28 being a commentary on Isa. 9:6?

Yes or no?

If yes, what does that section of Scripture teach you about God, Christ and his Government?

If no, explain where in the NT would you see the writers draw on Isaiah 9:6 (assuming you a standard trinitarian believer)

I see them draw on Isaiah 9:6 as the one lord and one mediator with God the father. I am not trinitarian, and I don't feel the need to find several quotes that say Jesus is the mediator.

 

[face2face]

@face2face

I see them draw on Isaiah 9:6 as the one lord and one mediator with God the father. I am not trinitarian, and I don't feel the need to find several quotes that say Jesus is the mediator.

Interesting.

The quote, if you read it, actually implies Yahweh gives the Son delegated authority and power for a limited duration of time.

This of course presents a problem for those trying to force trinitarian dogma on Isaiah 9:6 since the Son is to be subject to the Father, then he is clearly not "co-equal" with the Father and by implication not a person within the Godhead.

F2F

 

[MonoBiblical]

Interesting.

This of course presents a problem for those trying to force trinitarian dogma on Isaiah 9:6 since the Son is to be subject to the Father, then he is clearly not "co-equal" with the Father and by implication not a person within the Godhead.

Yes, it mighty suspicious, but there is also how participles don't seem to be rendered properly into English form Hebrew or Greek. The idea that a Bar Kockba could be a mediator gives everyone a shudder.

 

[face2face]

The idea that a Bar Kockba could be a mediator gives everyone a shudder.

Can you expand on this some more?

 

[MonoBiblical]

Can you expand on this some more?

I guess Christians don't have to worry, but the Jews have liked into this day to lower the standards of final messiah. I wonder if a sudden misunderstanding of Hebrew participles happens at this verse.

 

[Jack]

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
καὶ καλέσουσιν τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἐμμανουήλ

καλέω to call is not the same as ὀνίνημι to name. They are the noun form ονομα, for ὀνίνημι, means means to name.

G2564 - kaleō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G2564 - καλέω kaléō, kal-eh'-o; akin to the base of ; to "call" (properly, aloud, but used in a variety of applications, directly or otherwise):—bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-)name (was (called)).

www.blueletterbible.org

G3685 - oninēmi - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G3685 - ὀνίνημι onínēmi, on-in'-ay-mee; a prolonged form of an apparently primary verb ( ὄνομαι ónomai, to slur); for which another prolonged form ( ὀνάω onáō) is used as an alternate in some tenses (unless indeed it be identical with the base of through the idea of notoriety); to gratify...

www.blueletterbible.org

Amen!

 

[Jack]

Jesus did rebuke Thomas. In John 20 Thomas had plainly stated he would never believe unless he saw the resurrected Jesus and then Jesus said that only those who have not seen, yet believe, are blessed. That means Thomas isn't blessed.

Jesus didn't rebuke Thomas for calling Him, "My Lord and my GOD"!

John 20
24Now Thomas called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he replied, “Unless I see the nail marks in His hands, and put my finger where the nails have been, and put my hand into His side, I will never believe.”

29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

You just proved my point. Thomas BELIEVED that Jesus is "My Lord and my God"!

That's my point actually. Jesus is the authority not Thomas.

And Jesus taught Thomas! Unless you believe that Jesus is a BLASPHEMER. Jesus taught Thomas the He is LORD and GOD!

Please substantiate your allegations about what Jesus taught regarding his deity. Where did Jesus teach he is God?

I have quoted Scripture after Scripture and you have IGNORED!

You seemed to have read it more than I have. Are you a JW?

Nope, I'm a Bible defender.

John 17:3 and Ephesians 4:6 say the One Singular God is the Father.

Just like Father and Son in Genesis 1. "God said let US make man in OUR image"!

Not according to Scripture.

Then why are DODGING telling us Who "US and OUR" are in Gen 1?

 

[Jack]

You seem to have an unhealthy fixation with Jehovah’s Witnesses for some reason……every person who disagrees with you is not a JW, I assure you. If you could just stretch your imagination a little bit you will see that people have a wide variety of beliefs and still call themselves “Christians”……do you call yourself a Christian? What does God call you?…….you see, it’s not what we call ourselves that matters….it’s what God calls us that counts. Right?

There is only one truth Jack…..are you sure that you have it right…..who told you that what you believe is true? When Jesus comes to judge mankind what will he say?

Matt 7:21-23…KJV…
”Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

You need to read that carefully because it is in your own KJV language…..

Not everyone who calls Jesus their “Lord” is bound for “the kingdom of heaven”…only those “doing the will of the Father” will have that privilege. What does it mean to “do the will of the Father” Jack? Can you tell me?
Who are the “many” who do all these things “in his name”, believing that these kinds of things confirm their Christian faith?…..and what are these “wonderful works”?…”casting out devils”? and “prophesying”?

What he says to them next is shocking, because they cannot believe what he says about these wonderful works that they have done “in his name”……”I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY”. Ouch!!

Do you see the confidence with which they appeal to him as if he has somehow made a mistake concerning the expression of their Christian faith? How many people believe exactly what you do?

“I NEVER KNEW YOU” means that he has never recognized their “Christianity” as genuine. In fact he sees it as “works of iniquity”. What is iniquity, Jack?

According to Strong’s Concordance it means…

1. the condition of without law
   
   1. because ignorant of it
   2. because of violating it
2. contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness”.

So these ones are breaking God’s laws but still professing to be Christians…..what laws could they be breaking even out of ignorance? Obviously they have no idea that that they are doing anything wrong. Yet Jesus rejects them….do you know why?

What do you think? How do you explain that?

How many years did you say you've been JW??? Oh that's right, you didn't. I wonder why.

 

[Jack]

I am yet to see a Trinitarian adequately believe or explain this.

As Christ said: "I can of mine own self do nothing". John 5:30

Somewhere between post #2055 & #2056 is a truth which is not answered by imported doctrine.

I'm guessing Isaiah 9:7 might help

Philippians 2:7 (ESV)
7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Not of being God but God's attributes!

 

[face2face]

Philippians 2:7 (ESV)
7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Not of being God but God's attributes!

Hi Jack,

This verse is speaking to Christ being God's Son which of course comes with privilege's but instead of leaning on his Divine lineage he made himself the Son of Man and suffered for us and to represent us.

It's yet another reason Jesus cannot be God because God can do none of these things which are otherwise stated here:

To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. 1 Tim 1:17

Who no man has seen or can see!

F2F

 

[Jack]

Hi Jack,

This verse is speaking to Christ being God's Son which of course comes with privilege's but instead of leaning on his Divine lineage he made himself the Son of Man and suffered for us and to represent us.

It's yet another reason Jesus cannot be God because God can do none of these things which are otherwise stated here:

To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. 1 Tim 1:17

Who no man has seen or can see!

F2F

Only if the Bible is a joke!

Gen 1 God said let US make man in OUR image!

Father and Son!

 

[face2face]

Only if the Bible is a joke!

Gen 1 God said let US make man in OUR image!

Father and Son!

True - God did MAKE Adam and the Second Adam in His Image - One sinned the other righteous.

F2F

 

[Runningman]

Jesus didn't rebuke Thomas for calling Him, "My Lord and my GOD"!

That is not the answer about who Jesus is as revealed by the Father in heaven.

Observe how Jesus praised Peter and said that his answer is what the Father revealed as the truth. Therefore Thomas is wrong and that only adds to the fact that Thomas wasn't blessed.

Matthew 16
13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

You just proved my point. Thomas BELIEVED that Jesus is "My Lord and my God"!

And Jesus taught Thomas! Unless you believe that Jesus is a BLASPHEMER. Jesus taught Thomas the He is LORD and GOD!

I have quoted Scripture after Scripture and you have IGNORED!

Where did Jesus teach Thomas he is God?

Nope, I'm a Bible defender.

You're defending your beliefs the same way anyone who believes anything will defend what they believe. Defending the Bible would require understanding what the Bible says first.

Just like Father and Son in Genesis 1. "God said let US make man in OUR image"!

Then why are DODGING telling us Who "US and OUR" are in Gen 1?

There is no mention of a Father and Son together in Genesis 1. Also, I have already explained what the word elohim refers to. You immediately tried to change the topic to Hebrews 1 and started talking about something completely unrelated. That was several pages ago by now, but seems you are finally coming around.

You can begin on page 95 with post #1886

 

[Guestman]

How well do you know Koine Greek? Are you educated in it? Self studied?

I've never agreed with the Kingdom Hall version of John 1:1. It's polytheistic at best, and that's in complete disagreement with the Scriptures, so I know immediately without being a Greek scholar that their version is false. From my Greek schooling and studies since, I see their version is false.

Did you want to look at this together?

Much love!

The Codex Vaticanus of about 350 C.E. (and the Codex Sinaiticus of about 375 C.E.), predating the King James Bible (pub in 1611) over 1,260 years, reads at John 1:1, 2 as follows: "In a beginning was the ("the", Greek ho, definite article) Word, and the ("the", Greek ho, definite article) Word was with the ("the", Greek ho, definite article) God, and a god (NO definite article) was the ("the", Greek ho, definite article) Word. This was in a beginning with the ("the", Greek ho, definite article) Word."

And why was Jesus called "the Word" ? Because he is God's chief spokesman, his "angel of his presence" (Isa 63:9, KJV), "the Word of God" (Rev 19:13 and NOT "God was the Word"), his "only-begotten Son" (John 3:16), the one who forced Egypt's "hand" to release the Israelites from being their slaves in 1513 B.C.E.(see Isa 51:9)

Exodus 3 makes this clear, saying: "Moses became a shepherd of the flock of his father-in-law Jethʹro, the priest of Midʹi·an. While he was leading the flock to the west side of the wilderness, he eventually came to the mountain of the true God, to Horʹeb."

"Then Jehovah’s ANGEL appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush. As he kept looking, he saw that the thornbush was on fire, and yet the thornbush was not consumed. So Moses said: “I will go over to inspect this unusual sight to see why the thornbush does not burn up.”

"When JEHOVAH (God's name, see Isa 12:2, KJV) saw that he went over to look, God (or Jesus Christ as "the Word", Jehovah's chief spokesman, see 1 Cor 10:1-4) called to him out of the thornbush and said: “Moses ! Moses !” to which he said: “Here I am.” Then he said: “Do not come any nearer. Remove your sandals from your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy ground.”(Ex 3:1-5)

At Judges 6, when the Midianites had control over the Israelites, it says at verses 11-14: "Later Jehovah’s ANGEL came and sat under the big tree that was in Ophʹrah, which belonged to Joʹash the Abi-ezʹrite. His son Gidʹe·on was beating out wheat in the winepress in order to hide it from Midʹi·an. Jehovah’s ANGEL appeared to him and said: “Jehovah is with you, you mighty warrior.”

"At this Gidʹe·on said to him: “Pardon me, my lord, but if Jehovah is with us, why has all of this come upon us ? Where are all his wonderful acts that our fathers related to us, saying, ‘Did Jehovah not bring us up out of Egypt ?’

"Now Jehovah has deserted us and given us into Midʹi·an’s hand.” JEHOVAH faced him (or the materialized angel, that later came to be known as Jesus Christ, looked at him "face to face") and said: “Go with the strength you have, and you will save Israel out of Midʹi·an’s hand. Is it not I who send you?”

And John makes also clear that "God NO ONE has seen ever; the only-begotten (meaning to have a father) son (Jesus Christ), that being in the bosom of the Father, he has made known."(John 1:18, Codex Vaticanus; Note: God CANNOT be in his own bosom, but a son can)

The apostle John made sure that Jesus, "a god was the Word", was not confused with "the God", Jehovah at John 1. Also P-813 papyrus manuscript of John 1:1, written in Sahidic Coptic not long after the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, reads as follows: "In the beginning existed the Word and the Word existed with the God and a god was the Word." (Located in the Chester Beatty Library, at Dublin, Ireland)

 

[Guestman]

Are you talking about the word used, "Jehovah"? Are you aware that this name never appears in the Bible? This word was formed from the Masoretic tradition to add the vowel points from "adonai" to God's Name YHWH. This was done actually to PREVENT anyone from pronouncing God's Name.

To put "Jehovah" in place of where YHWH appears means replacing God's divinely revealed Name with man's traditional way to avoid God's Name. Were you aware of that?

Much love!

No one is certain of how the Hebrew letters of YHWH (Hebrew יהוה, Yod He Waw He) are to be pronounced, but many scholars favor the transliteration (NOT translation) of Yahweh (which is only a "half-way" point), that has been translated as Jehovah in English, and of which this holy name is found almost 7,000 times in the Hebrew Scriptures, commonly (but inaccurately) called "the Old Testament".

At Exodus 3:14, the meaning of the name Jehovah is given by Jehovah's representative angel (who is called "the Word" at John 1:1, 2, and came to be known as Jesus Christ, see 1 Cor 10:1-4), saying to Moses: "I Will Become What I Choose to Become.” And he added: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘I Will Become has sent me to you.’” Within the name Jehovah (Hebrew transliteration ’Eh·yeh´ ’Asher´ ’Eh·yeh´) is the Hebrew verb hayah (H1961), that means "to be, become, prove to be", and is found in the Hebrew Scriptures 3,575 times.

So, in English (as well as in Dutch, Chippewa, Arawak, German, Malagasy), the name of God is Jehovah and used by true Christians, for it is not required to know the exact pronunciation of Hebrew, but rather that a sincere Bible reader have an accurate Bible in his language, so as to do as Jesus (that is English, but is Iesous in transliterated Greek, and Jehoshua, or "Joshua", from transliterated Hebrew, meaning "Jehovah is Salvation") stated at John 17:3: "This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God (Jehovah), and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ."

Only when a person comes to intimately "know" Jehovah God (see John 7:28b, 29a), can they learn to love and obey him, so as to gain everlasting life.(Luke 10:25-28) So, since some have argued that it should not be used since its correct pronunciation is not now attainable, but have no problem with names such as Jerusalem (as well as Jeremiah), that starts with the same Hebrew letter as Jehovah, of Yod, here is some more information to consider.

ALL the names that start with the Hebrew letter Yod, start with the letter " J " in English, such as Jabez at 1 Chronicles 4:9, Joseph at Genesis 30:24, Jerusalem at Joshua 10:1, Joab at 2 Samuel 2:26, Jobab at 1 Chronicles 1:45, etc.

Or of Jehoahaz, Jehoiakim, Joshua, Jehozadak, Judah, Jehoshaphat, Jehu and Jehoiachin (2 Kings 23:31; 24:1, 8; Haggai 1:14), whereby these names starts with the same three Hebrew letters as Jehovah, of Yod, He, Waw. So, instead of "finding fault", a sincere Bible reader should rather focus how to please Jehovah, "so as to walk worthily of Jehovah in order to please him fully as you go on bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the accurate knowledge of God".(Col 1:10; "accurate knowledge", Greek epignosis, meaning "precise and correct knowledge")

Thus, at Micah 4, it says: "In the final part of the days (that began in 1914, when Jesus was crowned king of God's Kingdom, Dan 7:13, 14; Rev 6:1, 2), the mountain of the house of Jehovah (or true worship) will become firmly established above the top of the (symbolic) mountains (or political governments that people look to for protection, see Luke 23:30; Rev 6:16), and it will be raised up above the hills (or human institutions that people look to for support, see also Hosea 10:8), and to it peoples will stream."

"And many nations will go and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah and to the house of the God of Jacob. He will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For law will go out of (symbolic) Zion, and the word of Jehovah out of (symbolic) Jerusalem.(see Gal 4:26; Heb 12:25) He will render judgment among many peoples and set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away."

"They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, nor will they learn war anymore. They will sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and no one will make them afraid, for the mouth of Jehovah of armies has spoken. For all the peoples will walk, each in the name of its god, but we will walk in the name of Jehovah our God forever and ever."(Micah 4:1-5)