Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Chayaal Meshuwchrar Meshuggah.
First, let's get something straight right away. I didn't SAY that the CJB was a "more accurate translation than the KJV Bible," nor was I saying that the NIV was better than the KJV. I was saying that the CJB is an easier READ, LIKE the NIV. Why do you think there's been such an influx of alternate versions lately? It's because the English language, for good or bad, has CHANGED so much from the King's English of 1611! Our modern English has migrated away from that of the KJV.
This is a CHRISTIAN FORUM, not a site of Hebraic-Judaica. So let's get that straight first!
There are several other Bible translations that are easier to read than the CJB. Even though some here use translations like the NIV, I can just about guarantee that most here were raised with the 1611 KJV Bible, and are used to it, even though some may not like it still.
The reason for an influx of modern Bible translations has been done in order to support the various denominational theories of men, period. Don't like what the old translation says, write your own new-and-improved translations, that's their reasoning. And all they've actually done is become less accurate and more paraphrased.
The English in the KJV is good enough, and because it's a translation from well-used manuscripts which many copies have existed through history, that should be what a true believer would want to stay with and learn. It was good enough for many non-Hebrew speaking Jewish believers on Christ Jesus through its history, so why not now?
Retrobyter said:
The thing you and every other KJV-only person needs to understand is that NO ENGLISH VERSION OF THE BIBLE IS INSPIRED! Therefore, NO ENGLISH VERSION OF THE BIBLE IS PERFECT, NOT EVEN THE KJV! They ALL have their own idiosyncrasies and flaws from human involvement! They are ALL susceptible to informational thermodynamics because they are ALL affected by HUMAN ERROR! All human beings make mistakes, even if they don't mean to, no matter how careful they are! That's why we even HAVE to go back to the Greek and the Hebrew! "Let God be true and EVERY MAN A LIAR!"
That... is where you are terribly... WRONG! No other English translation in history took the amount of learning and painstaking detail over the manuscripts to bring its accuracy into the English language. The amount of work it involved stands as a miracle in itself.
But is it a 'perfect' translation? No, and I never said it was. The KJV translators made that declaration also in a
Letter To The Reader that was included in the 1st edtion KJV Bible that since has been removed from later edtions (you can find that online, and ought to read it, and their
Letter To Kings James, Defender Of The Faith that was included also). But not all the manuscripts are perfect either (and no, I don't care to get into textual criticism).
One of the things the KJV translators kept to is the order of the subject and topic flow per the manuscripts. Only one KJV Bible I know of gives the outlines of that in the margin, and it's
The Companion Bible, a 1611 KJV Bible compiled by the 1800's Christian scholar E.W. Bullinger (Bullinger also included many of the Massorah notes in that Bible version from Christian David Ginsberg's work).
Now most of that above is only about the idea of accuracy of letters and subject flow, but Bullinger was not slack in study of Hebrew idioms and expressions either, for he well covered those things in The Companion Bible also. That's why your assault on Gentile Christians saying we rely on analogy too much just does not fly, since there's so many idioms, figures of speech, and expressions contained right in the... original Bible manuscripts! And that's not even to mention the idea of proverb, axioms of speech, and parable. It's that... kind of Bible study the majority are very lacking in today (and I could use more too).
Retrobyter said:
Furthermore, no translation from one language to another is completely one-to-one. That is, sometimes one Hebrew word (for instance) can be translated many different ways in English and sometimes many different Hebrew words are given the same English word in translation! It's not a perfect science!
Not as big a problem like you try to make it. That's why God chose more than one servant to write down His Word. If there were only one Book of The Bible, then your reasoning would be valid. But there are 66 Books in our Christian Bible.
Retrobyter said:
Because the KJV was a version written as much as possible as a word-by-word translation, it's a version that is great for consistency in word usage. It also has the most study helps available. In connection with the Strong's Concordance and the numbering system it uses to reference Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek words in its dictionaries, that also connect with other references, like the Englishman's Concordance, for instance, it is one of the best translations to use to study out the Greek or the Hebrew of the original text without having to know Greek or Hebrew. Another good thing about the KJV s that it has RETAINED the "thee's" and "thou's" which denote NUMBER of the second-person pronouns. Some think that makes it harder to read, but it is information that is otherwise lost in modern English. "Thee's" and "thou's" are singular; "ye's" and "you's" are plural. The problem with the KJV is that it is no longer considered by newbies (in particular) as an easy version to read and understand.
The translators sought out the existing translations of the day also, and they were not unlearned men, but scholars in the manuscripts. They clearly did not just do a simple transliteration from the manuscripts. And difficult passages they most often included a side note in the margin of the 1st edition KJV (which those have been removed from later KJV editions also) They mostly did transliterations with names and places, which requires us to research those meanings at times. There also exists an Old English Dictionary for Bible students that want to discover how certain words were used in the 1600's.
Retrobyter said:
The NIV was a version written as much as possible as a thought/idea translation, attempting to use modern idioms and phrases to translate the Hebrew or Greek idioms and phrases found in the original texts. That's good for a casual read, but not good for a detailed, in-depth study! The CJB was also written this way. Thus, both versions are good to get the over-all perspective on a particular book or chapter of the Bible. I was HOPING you would understand that! That's why I chose to use the CJB for that lengthy section. It allows you to get the over-all picture of what's going on in those verses.
The NIV is from a totally different set of Greek manuscripts first of all, a text from the Alexandrian school, and there were problems with some of their doctrines with Gnostic ideas that don't belong in God's Holy Writ. It was a translation done by a small group of men, nothing on the order that the 1611 KJV was done. And the NIV contains paraphrased language according to certain Gnostic beliefs, and did NOT always retain the direct meanings from the manuscripts themselves. The Greek NT manuscripts it relied upon were not the majority of texts used in early Christianity. The ones used for the NIV showed little usage, and there are few copies. The manuscripts for the KJV NT exist in the thousands, and show majority usage by the early Churches.
The Living Bible has some difficult passages translated better than the 1611 KJV, but, there are many more passages in the Living Bible that fall flat. That's no reason to leave the KJV Bible.
Retrobyter said:
Now, regarding that phrase, the word "tohuw" was used in the Scriptures 20 times:
Gen. 1:2; Deut. 32:10; 1 Sam. 12:21 twice; Job 6:8; 12:24; 26:7; Psalm 107:40; Isa. 24:10; 29:21; 34:11; 40:17, 23; 41:29; 44:9; 45:18, 19; 49:4; 59:4; and Jer. 4:23.
The word "bohuw" was used 3 times: Gen. 1:2; Isa. 34:11; and Jer. 4:23.
So, the other passage that uses BOTH words is Isaiah 34:11:
Isaiah 34:11
11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion (tohuw), and the stones of emptiness (bohuw).
KJV
In context, this is talking about the land of Idumea or the land of Edom, where the town Botsrah (Bozrah) exists, specifically when the Messiah returns:
Isaiah 34:6-11
6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
8 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.
KJV
So, NOW what? Are you going to try to SQUEEEEEEZE that verse into your Creation fantasy, too? You FORCED Jeremiah 4:23 into your mold, like a square peg into a round hole until it cried, "Uncle!" Are you going to do damage to this Scripture, too?
What I'm going to do is SHOW how the word 'tohuw' is brought into English showing HOW it was used in a majority of passages, according to the subject. That's something I think you don't want to do, but want to hide. I've already done this once here on this Forum elsewhere too.
Gen 1:2
2 And the earth was
without form (
Hebrew tohuw), and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
(KJV)
I've already... covered how 'tohuw' was used in the Jeremiah 4 Scripture, its usage about God having brought a destruction upon the earth and it laid in a wasted and ruined state, and the earth mourns because of it. That's the idea of something in a previous condition going... to a wasted state.
So is that how 'tohuw' is used in the majority of OT Scripture? Let's find out.
Deut 32:10
10 He found him in a desert land,
and in the waste (tohuw) howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.
(KJV)
The KJV translators rendered tohuw directly to "waste" in that example. Is that about some idea of a nothingness vacuum space state before creation? Obviously not. It's about something in a previous condition going bad, a waste, like a literal desert land.
1 Sam 12:21
21 And turn ye not aside: for then should ye go after
vain (tohuw) things, which cannot profit nor deliver; for they are vain.
(KJV)
Turn aside? That means to leave a good state and instead go to a bad state. That's how that "vain" is being used there.
Job 6:18
18 The paths of their way are turned aside; they go
to nothing (tohuw), and perish.
(KJV)
Once again, tohuw is used to apply to a condition of turning aside from what is good, to what is bad. To go to nothing in that sense means going to a bad condition, a condition that causing perishing.
Job 12:24
24 He taketh away the heart of the chief of the people of the earth, and causeth them to wander
in a wilderness (tohuw) where there is no way.
(KJV)
Once again, a good state going into a bad state; not wandering in a wilderness (desert) vs. wandering in a wilderness.
Job 26:7
7 He stretcheth out the north over
the empty place (tohuw), and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
(KJV)
Strangley, the word "nothing" there is not 'tohuw' but 'beliymah' in the Hebrew. It's the Hebrew word 'beliymah' that applies to the idea nothingness, not tohuw. Indeed God created the earth and hung in outer space upon 'beliymah' (nothingness). But the
place He stretcheth out the north over is put for an existing earth. You do understand the idea of north, south, east, and west, i.e., the four cardinal points on the earth, don't you?
Ps 107:40
40 He poureth contempt upon princes, and causeth them to wander
in the wilderness (tohuw), where there is no way.
(KJV)
Again, a good state going to a bad state.
Isa 24:10
10 The city of
confusion (tohuw) is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in.
(KJV)
City of confusion is definitely in the sense of a bad condition or wasted state.
Isa 29:21
21 That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just
for a thing of nought (tohuw).
(KJV)
And again, the idea of something good going into a bad state, a thing of nought.
Isa 34:11
11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of
confusion (tohuw), and the stones of
emptiness (bohuw).
(KJV)
That Scripture is about the destruction of Idumea, and the land being left in... what kind of state??? In a wasted state, which is how tohuw and bohuw are used there. And it's left for the wild birds to possess. Once again, a previous state gone into a wasted state.
Isa 40:17
17 All nations before Him are as nothing; and they are counted to Him less than nothing,
and vanity (tohuw).
(KJV)
Why wouldn't that word for "nothing" there be Hebrew
tohuw instead of
ephec? In that God Himself is being compared to those things, not as a 'nothingness', but as vanity. So tohuw is used there once again to represent a fallen condition.
Isa 40:23
23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth
as vanity (tohuw).
(KJV)
And yet once again, tohuw used in comparison of a bad condition to an opposite previous better existence, not non-existence.
Isa 41:29
29 Behold, they are all vanity; their works are nothing: their molten images are wind
and confusion (tohuw).
(KJV)
That's a contrast between good and bad once again. The state of confusion not being a state of non-existence, but a state of vainity or worthlessness, waste, garbage.
Isa 44:9
9 They that make a graven image are all of them
vanity (tohuw); and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.
(KJV)
Again, a comparison to a fallen condition, idol worship.
Isa 45:18
18 For thus saith the LORD That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not
in vain (tohuw), He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
(KJV)
That has a direct bearing on the Gen.1:2 verse where 'tohuw' was translated to "without form", because God said there He did NOT create the earth 'tohuw' ("in vain"). Regardless of how tohuw was translated in these other KJV passages, it's still all the same idea, something created in a previous condition having gone to a bad waste condition. That is how tohuw is used in the Jer.4 Scripture also.
Isa 45:19
19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me
in vain (tohuw): I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
(KJV)
Once again, a comparison between a good and bad condition is being made, with tohuw used for the bad condition.
Isa 49:4
4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength
for nought (tohuw), and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.
(KJV)
Again, tohuw is used in comparison between good and bad conditions.
Isa 59:4
4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in
vanity (tohuw), and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
(KJV)
Same idea, good state vs. fallen state.
Jer 4:23-27
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was
without form (tohuw), and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by His fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
(KJV)
Definite case of the earth having been a better previous condition going into desolation.
Thus Hebrew 'tohuw' as used in ALL Old Testament passages, is ALWAYS in comparison between a previous condition going into a wasted or state of vanity. That's how it's meant in the Gen.1:2 verse also.
