Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Yes but we still need to acknowledge our sin when we commit them. We have been forgiven judicially, but sin will block our fellowship with god. It is not to get saved, but to keep fellowship open.
1 JOHN WAS WRITTEN TO ISRAEL
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As a new member on this site, I’ve been reading the very interesting discussions regarding the Sabbath day interpretations and regarding the books of the New Testament with regard to whom the authors were writing as their initial audience as well as the debate about dispensation teaching.
My take on all this is that the apostles, meaning the original 11 and also, Paul and other apostles mentioned in the New Testament book — I do understand and believe that the 11 we’re writing for the most part to the Jewish believers both in Israel and dispersed abroad. Likewise, I understand and believe that Paul was writing for the most part to the gentile believers, but possibly not exclusively due to his being raised a Hebrew Jew, who also was a Roman citizen two Jewish believers who attended the churches, he established in the predominantly, Hellenistic countries.
I guess my long-winded first post here on this site is that I personally am not getting caught up into mutually-exclusive posturing that assumes because Peter and John and Matthew for that matter we’re writing to the predominantly Jewish churches must mean what they wrote was only for them. If we remember the Hellenistic believers and of course many might have been Jewish, complained to the 11 apostles that they were being treated disparagingly — that’s the first recorded example of creating deacons of which Stephen was one and became the first recorded martyr). Likewise because Paul’s ministry was predominantly to the Gentiles — to say God‘s truth in his writings were ONLY for Gentiles seems as much as assumption as the assumption, the writings of the 11 were ONLY for the Jews (and assumptions treated as absolute truth is the birthing pot of entrenched dogma).
I see a lot of scriptural validity, and even quite a bit of agreement theologically, in many of the posts written by all of your opposing viewpoints. Yet not to the point where I would only read Paul if my biology happens to be pre-NT Gentile, nor to the point where I would only read the gospels and writings of the 11 if my biology happens to be Jewish. Let’s not forget that Peter was given the vision of the unclean animals coming down in a sheet, and let’s not forget the scripture about in Jesus we’re no longer Joe or gentile, male or female slave or free. Of course, in our carnal, biological, worldly cultural selves we are, but in our spiritual, new creature, selves we are no more divided, but one in Jesus and the Holy Spiriit.
You’re a bit of a Segway, but not completely, I’d love to see a discussion regarding the impact that Hellenistic Jews (and Gentiles) and their subsequent reading of Greek translations of the original Hebrew texts (and how the fragmentary pieces of what would become the fifth century
Septuagint impacted [contributed to] the factions, Aryan misinterpretations, debates, and definite Hellenistic [i.e., non-Semetic] philosophical and theological assumption (again, assumptions creating dogmatic perspectives] that shaped not only the increasing divisions between Jews and Hellenistic gentiles, but also the attendees, framework, factions, and outcome of the first council formulating the Nicene creed.
My take on all this is that the apostles, meaning the original 11 and also, Paul and other apostles mentioned in the New Testament book — I do understand and believe that the 11 we’re writing for the most part to the Jewish believers both in Israel and dispersed abroad. Likewise, I understand and believe that Paul was writing for the most part to the gentile believers, but possibly not exclusively due to his being raised a Hebrew Jew, who also was a Roman citizen two Jewish believers who attended the churches, he established in the predominantly, Hellenistic countries.
I guess my long-winded first post here on this site is that I personally am not getting caught up into mutually-exclusive posturing that assumes because Peter and John and Matthew for that matter we’re writing to the predominantly Jewish churches must mean what they wrote was only for them. If we remember the Hellenistic believers and of course many might have been Jewish, complained to the 11 apostles that they were being treated disparagingly — that’s the first recorded example of creating deacons of which Stephen was one and became the first recorded martyr). Likewise because Paul’s ministry was predominantly to the Gentiles — to say God‘s truth in his writings were ONLY for Gentiles seems as much as assumption as the assumption, the writings of the 11 were ONLY for the Jews (and assumptions treated as absolute truth is the birthing pot of entrenched dogma).
I see a lot of scriptural validity, and even quite a bit of agreement theologically, in many of the posts written by all of your opposing viewpoints. Yet not to the point where I would only read Paul if my biology happens to be pre-NT Gentile, nor to the point where I would only read the gospels and writings of the 11 if my biology happens to be Jewish. Let’s not forget that Peter was given the vision of the unclean animals coming down in a sheet, and let’s not forget the scripture about in Jesus we’re no longer Joe or gentile, male or female slave or free. Of course, in our carnal, biological, worldly cultural selves we are, but in our spiritual, new creature, selves we are no more divided, but one in Jesus and the Holy Spiriit.
You’re a bit of a Segway, but not completely, I’d love to see a discussion regarding the impact that Hellenistic Jews (and Gentiles) and their subsequent reading of Greek translations of the original Hebrew texts (and how the fragmentary pieces of what would become the fifth century
Septuagint impacted [contributed to] the factions, Aryan misinterpretations, debates, and definite Hellenistic [i.e., non-Semetic] philosophical and theological assumption (again, assumptions creating dogmatic perspectives] that shaped not only the increasing divisions between Jews and Hellenistic gentiles, but also the attendees, framework, factions, and outcome of the first council formulating the Nicene creed.
Paul preached to Jew and Gentile
[Rom 1:16 KJV] 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Peter and the apostles were in fact preaching to Jews only
At first Jesus only came to the Jews to confirm their promises and to fulfil scripture by his death and resurrection....he would shed his blood to forgive their iniquities under the first covenant and to put in force the new covenant
He taught them about the coming prophetic Davidic kingdom on earth in which the believing Jews would reign with him for a thousand years, Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom to the twelve and sent them to preach it.
As seen from Galatians 2:9 The twelve decided to only go to the Jews
We can learn from all they wrote but we cant think it was all directed to us
We can rightly divide the Word of God to say Mark 16 was not for us as one example
[Mar 16:16-18 KJV] 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
We dont have to be baptized to be saved
We cant speak in tongues
We cant pick up snakes
Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles in this dispensation was writing to Jew and Gentile
As to the twelve, they were preaching to Israel but Gentiles could believe as well as seen in Acts 10 and as well in Acts 2
God always made provision to save Gentiles but they had to go thru Israel
LoveYeshua
Member
all you say is wrong Doug, you are indeed a false teacher. Peter James and John were indeed the Pillar of the church. Paul was boasting as he always does to make himself superior to the true apostles of Christ. they did not like each other ir is obvious in Acts. Yo do not see this because you Focus on Paul and forgot Jesus the son of GOD. Know that is it Jesus Not Paul that will judge us according to His words as GOD not Paul according to HIS Gospel as he boasted again somewhere in his epistle.
None of the original 12 disciples who knwe Christ ever called Paul an apostle! it is Paul who appointed himself an apostle.
shepherdsword
Active Member
How about the entire book? 1John was written to the entire body of Christ, not to some special class of jews.
It is well known that John lived in Ephesus and preached to a gentile congregation. Also, it is error to think that just because a letter or sermon was preached to jews it didn't also apply to gentiles. The gentiles are saved by faith just as the jews are.
[1John 5:3 KJV] 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
So you would say this verse above in 1 John would apply to you
[Luk 18:22 KJV] 22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Have you sold all?
[Mat 10:5 KJV] 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Does this commandment apply?
[Mat 28:19-20 KJV] 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
Is this our command?
[Eze 36:27 KJV] 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
My point is we cant keep all his commands so 1 John 5:3 applies to Israel who can by the new covenant made with them alone
shepherdsword
Active Member
yes, are you saying you are exempt? We don't have to love one another as he loved us? We cannot be disciples without it:
Jn 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
The new covenant brought about a change in the law. We obey the law of the Melchizedek priesthood, not the levitical, the new commandments are what we obey:
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Several times. When I first came to the Lord I gave away everything I had, even my paycheck minus what I needed to survive. I was blessed, got a better job and later gave away that whole salary as well.
You are confused, that has nothing to do with 1John. The gospel is given to the Jew first:
Ro 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
It was given to the Gentiles after, according to this parable:
Mt 22:8-10
Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
The new covenant applies to all. There is no salvation outside of it. The law it commands is not written on tablets but on the heart.
Jer 31:31-33
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Lk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
There is no salvation outside of the new covenant.
[Rom 13:8 KJV] 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
I am not exempt as seen by Paul
what are the tenants of the law of Melchizedek.....what are the new commandments?
To me the only change of law was made to change the priesthood from the Levitical to Melchizedek to make Jesus a priest forever
Christ thru Paul does not command us to sell all but rather here is what he taught which was ;
[2Co 8:12-14 KJV] 12 For if there be first a willing mind, [it is] accepted according to that a man hath, [and] not according to that he hath not. 13 For [I mean] not that other men be eased, and ye burdened: 14 But by an equality, [that] now at this time your abundance [may be a supply] for their want, that their abundance also may be [a supply] for your want: that there may be equality:
I was asking if Matthew 10:5 was to be obeyed as it was one of his commandments which you say we have to obey according to 1 John.....[Mat 10:5 KJV] 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:..........you cant say we dont have to keep this commandment when you say we have to keep his commandments seeing 1 John says we have to keep his commandments
The new covenant says it was made with the house of Israel and Judah so how could it be said made to all......the true Israel will keep the commandments
Davy
Well-Known Member
Your original premise is in error. Sounds like you are coming from a certain Messianic Jewish community with your Israel slant on The New Testament Scriptures.
The Book of John is a Gospel Witness to ALL... nations and peoples, not just to the children of Israel only. There are certain 'cult' denominations that have started up in the past couple of centuries that try to separate New Testament Scripture into sections as being 'for' different groups of peoples, Israelites vs. Gentiles. Christ, His Apostles, Apostle Paul never... taught any such separation idea. All... of God's written Word is for the believer on Jesus Christ, regardless of their birth and national origin. That's why Apostle Paul taught the Church in 1 Corinthians 10 that the events of Old Testament history serve as "ensamples", written for the Church's admonition upon whom the ends of the world are come.
That above is another error in interpretation. It reveals that you don't actually know your Old Testament history about God's split of old Israel into two separate kingdoms in the days of Solomon's son Rehoboam.
At that old split of Israel which God did, the title "house of Israel" became applied ONLY to the northern ten tribes of the "kingdom of Israel". The Jews of the southern kingdom were not called the "kingdom of Israel", nor the "house of Israel". The 3 tribe southern kingdom of the Jews at Jerusalem-Judea were known as the "kingdom of Judah" and "house of Judah". And God scattered the northern ten tribe "house of Israel" first, into their own captivity, while the Jews of the "house of Judah" remained in the holy land (until God brought Nebuchadnezzar upon the Jews about 120 years after He had scattered the ten northern tribes of Israel).
Thus Lord Jesus in Matthew 15:24 when He said He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the "house of Israel", He was pointing to the scattered Ten Lost Tribes of Israel that were not even there in the holy land at His 1st coming. The majority of JEWS in the holy land at His 1st coming REJECTED Him.
Christ's idea of being 'sent' is about the condition of His being received. The Gospel was rejected at Jerusalem, but The Gospel would be accepted among the ten lost tribes of Israel and the Gentiles which they were scattered among. That's the actual meaning, because after the split of old Israel per 1 Kings 11 forward, the label "house of Israel" applied ONLY to the northern ten tribes "kingdom of Israel". Only when that label is used in the sense of Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel", does it apply to all 12 tribes of Israel as one body.
Archaeological and historical evidence does exist to show that the ten lost tribes of Israel were mainly scattered to the west from their Assyrian captivity, to Asia Minor where the 7 Churches were first established, and into to Europe, in stages. That is where The Gospel would be received by the lost sheep of the ten tribe "house of Israel", while among the Gentiles. And both together would makeup Christ's Church, even as it still is to this day.
As for the Jews in the southern holy land, which the Jewish historian Josephus said they called themselves that from the name of the tribe Judah, they remained in the lands of Judea after the northern ten tribes had been scattered out of their lands. And the king of Assyria brought peoples from Babylon and inserted them there in the northern holy land where the ten tribes had been. Those foreigners were called Samaritans, and the Jews would have nothing to do with them, knowing they were pagan foreigners.
Then about 120 years after the ten tribes had been removed captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes, the Jews at Jerusalem-Judea came under captivity to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon. And only a small remnant of Jews that went captive would return to Jerusalem to rebuild the city, wall, and temple. The majority of Jews remained in Babylon, because God had said He would take care of them while in captivity, so they built houses and planted vineyards, and got very comfortable. Then God said He would scattered those Jews further in the countries.
That is when Jews began migrating into Asia Minor and Europe also, with another influx of the Jews that happened from the Roman destruction of 70 A.D. By then the majority of the ten tribes had migrated to the west and had begun receiving The Gospel, to start becoming the western Christian nations of history. Many of those Jews then converted to Jesus Christ among lost Israel and the Gentiles. But a number of those Jews still rejected The Gospel, and were cast out of those early European Christian nations, those Jews becoming vagabond refugees traveling from one nation to another in the Christian west, and eventually trekking back to the holy land at Jerusalem. This is why a form of old modified Spanish is spoken by many Jews in Jerusalem today.
Thus today, those of Israel who settled in the holy land to become the nation of Israel again represent mainly Jews of the old "kingdom of Judah" and "house of Judah", along with converts to Judaism which involve foreigners that had become religious Jews. Ezra 1 & 2 reveals the Jews that returned to Jerusalem from the Babylon captivity. Some of them were foreigners that went captive with the Jews to Babylon. Per 2 Chronicles 11, a small remnant of the northern ten tribes that rejected Jeroboam's calf idol worship left the north, and went south and joined with Judah and Benjamin. The Levites also left the north because of the calf idol worship.
Per the Ezekiel 37 Chapter, which has never happened yet, the two houses today are still separated. That is why in final God shows there about the 2 sticks being joined together as one nation in the holy lands, under one Head (Christ Jesus) over them and with king David.
But what are today's Orthodox unbelieving Jews preaching about Israel and Jerusalem today? They are busy claiming that 'they'... in today's holy land, already... represent the final fulfillment of God's promises to the children of Israel, and that before God's "strong delusion" of a supernatural false Messiah has even come upon them for rejecting Lord Jesus Christ.
And don't get me wrong, the Christian west needs to support the nation of Israel today, because they are there in the holy land because God promised He would always leave one tribe at Jerusalem for Jerusalem's sake, and for His servant David's sake. Yet those Jews in the holy land definitely do NOT... represent God's final Plan for His Israel under His Son Jesus Christ. The majority of Jews in today's holy land still reject Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior. When Lord Jesus does return, many of those unbelieving Jews will convert to Jesus, God at that time will remove the spirit of stupor blindness He put upon the majority of them according to Apostle Paul.
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I follow grace churches that teach mid acts right division...........dispensational..........will send a link to a website if you are interested
Yes all scripture is for us to learn from but we have to recognize what is and is not directed to us
[Act 24:5 KJV] 5 For we have found this man [a] pestilent [fellow], and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:
Even Paul was accused of sedition because he preached a dispensation (Ephesians 3:2)
Peter was reluctant to go to Cornelius because of upholding separation from Gentiles.........[Act 10:28 KJV] 28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
Paul acknowledges the separation,,,,but also says Christ did away with it..............[Eph 2:14 KJV] 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
[Jer 50:6 KJV] 6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away [on] the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.
The point is Christ was sent to Israel, the lost sheep
[Mat 10:5-7 KJV] 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Christ commanded not to go to the Gentiles
Davy
Well-Known Member
Yeah... I picked up on your separation of Scripture divisions which the Hyper-Grace Dispensationalist movement created.
And NO... I ain't... interested in their false doctrines, not even a little bit.
When Apostle Paul in 1 Cor.10 said past Bible Scripture was written as "ensamples" for our admonition, upon who the ends of the world have come, that means it is TO US, CHRIST'S CHURCH. The whole Bible... is GOD's LETTER TO US, THE BELIEVER.
It doesn't matter that Bible Scripture is not specifically addressing us personally by the events that happened to others directly involved. Those Scriptures are still TO US, The CHURCH. That's why Paul said what he did in 1 Cor.10.
And one of the craziest, most stupid, ideas of Hyper-Grace and man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory to include Darby's Dispensationalist theories, is the false claim that Lord Jesus' Olivet discourse was NOT given by Christ to The Church, but instead only to the seed of Israel that was with Him upon the Mount of Olives! Just so happens, per Ephesians 2, His Apostles that were with Him upon the Mount of Olives when He gave His discourse, make up part of the early 'foundation' of Christ's Church!
Hyper-Grace chops up The Bible with its main goal being CONFUSION AND DECEPTION, even while using that Grace word as a deceptive moniker.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Well, there's one of the big LIES by man's false Hyper-Grace movement. Paul never preached Dispensations. That word "dispensation" in Eph.3:2 is actually just a Greek word that means 'administration'. Hyper-Grace attempts to turn that KJV English word "dispensation" into a whole theory that Paul's teaching of The Gospel was a different... Gospel than what Christ and His other Apostles preached. That idea of course is a false doctrine from men.
What Ephesians 3:2, and Galatians 2:7-8, and Paul's pointing to the "mystery" that the believing Gentiles would be fellow-heirs, means the idea of ADMINISTRATION of the One Gospel of Jesus Christ, NOT... two different Gospels like Hyper-Dispensationalism wrongly teaches.
So I'm not interested in the gross DECEPTIONS BY MEN that you follow who abuse the word Grace while hiding false doctrines under it.
care to give me some false doctrine
[Mat 5:3 KJV] 3 Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
[Mat 5:10 KJV] 10 Blessed [are] they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
The olivet discourse was describing the prophetic kingdom on earth
depends on which translation is used......................[Gal 2:7 KJV] 7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;.......gospel of not to
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
John clearly identifies his intended audience as second-generation Christians, individuals who likely spent their formative years surrounded by the teachings and values of Christianity. These believers are the offspring of those who either received the gospel directly from the apostles or witnessed the momentous events of the faith firsthand. As they navigate their spiritual journeys, these second-generation Christians face significant challenges from Jewish teachers and authorities. These figures assert that without incorporating Jewish customs and practices into their faith, these believers fall short of true completeness. This tension creates a backdrop for John's writing as he seeks to affirm and strengthen the faith of those grappling with these pressures.
When John speaks to the second-generation believers, he refers to them as "children." When John speaks to first-generation believers, he refers to them as "fathers." For example, consider the following passages.
1 John 2:12-13 I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake. I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.
Children:
Second-generation Christians who are hearing the gospel for the first time
Young men:
Christians who are walking in maturity and confidence in the faith.
Fathers:
First generation Christians who heard the Gospel in the early days.
You seem to know alot about right division false doctrine so please give me some examples of it
Davy
Well-Known Member
Christ's Olivet discourse was giving the SIGNS of the end of this world leading up to Christ's 2nd coming, which are the SEALS of Revelation 6. Just as Christ gave His Book of Revelation to His Church, likewise those SIGNS in His Olivet discourse were given to His Church.
And the last SIGN Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse was the event of His future 2nd coming and gathering of His faithful saints.
