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Do you mean REALLY TRULY OBJECTIVELY wrong ? Or just subjectively wrong ? If you meant REALLY TRULY OBJECTIVELY wrong, then congratulations ! You have just admitted that objective moral standards exist OUTSIDE of what a society thinks. The fact that you can look back in time and say that...

truth-OT, I sympathize with you, for when Christians try to point to fulfilled Bible prophecies, as proof of their persuasion. I mean ... yes and no. Yes I agree with you that it's a weak support (for apologetic purposes). So the atheist/agnostic will bristle at those being "proofs"...

Truth-OT. You have been more than fair. The average person would say "the Nazis were wrong" And they would mean that in the objective sense of REALLY *truly* "wrong". But amazingly, you're inisisting that they were only subjectively wrong (like ice cream flavor preferences). So I will...

No, this doesn't prove that "morals are subjective and relative". All it proves is that people can twist and break objective moral absolutes. For example, if my morals are to murder my neighbor and take his stuff, does that mean that : A) Morals are therefore subjective, ? Or B) That I...

A government is a collective voice of "who's", not "what's". Like the difference between an innanimate object (like a rock) and a person(s) , like you and me. Moral obligations (aka rules, laws) can only come from "who's", not "what's". You do not owe any moral obligation (eg.: don't...

The reason it's not making sense to you, is as I've said: You're confusing epistemology and ontology again. Yes: You can look at the speed limit sign and know, just like I can, that the speed limit is 25 mph. THAT'S NOT THE QUESTION. The question is : Where did the speed limit come from...

Ok, so since you've now made it an "ever -evolving scoring card", I've got you right-where-I-want-you. Look back in the history of evolution. And find something that you find morally abhorent. Eg.: throwing virgins into volcanoes, throwing Jews into gas chambers, Jim Crow laws (that's...

Dude, glad you're seeing that there's an "authority" involved. Because YOU'RE RIGHT ! A "thing" can't issue rules and laws. Ie.: we have no moral obligations to rocks and inanimate objects. Eh ? Only personal agents ("who's" not "what's" ) can issue rules and moral obligations, right ...

Ok, then why oh why do you list all those horrible injustices and wrongs in the world, if it "depends on what the other person believes" and what they believe the circumstances call for, etc..... On your view, you shouldn't be shaking your fist at them and calling it "wrong". Perhaps they...

AAAaahhh, then pray-tell : What did you mean by "Real" ? As in "really wrong" ? Is murder of innocent people only subjectively wrong (your view, not mine) ? If so, then it wasn't wrong , other than your preference and opinion, for the Nazis to kill all those people. After all, their society...

Then in that sense, I'm meaning a true state of existence WHETHER OR NOT someone can furnish evidence (of any kind) to-prove-to-your-satisfaction, or not, whether or not it/he exists. In other words, something or someone that truly "exists", but people can dispute whether or not the evidence...

Wow, you've still lost me. Let me ask you this : When 2 persons debate the "existence" of God, I don't recall EVER hearing either side start a debate-of-semantics on the word "exist". They both seem to understand that the word "exist" would be the difference between a "fairy tale" (which is...

Yes, atpollard : You are right : If "majority of opinion" controlled what is morally "right" and "wrong " , then why do we have wars all through history ? PRECISELY BECAUSE "not everyone agrees". And why does the "entire world need to be polled " ? Why can't an island set their own...

Then don't you see how you just contradicted yourself ? You're saying that it was "wrong". If all that is , is only a subjective opinion to you and your present society, then why should Hitler care what you think ? It's only wrong to YOU. It wasn't wrong for THEM. And perhaps they...

Correct. Because evolution is their "only game in town". Since we are nothing more than "meat all the way down". If an atheist tries to say that absolute moral values exist (like "Don't murder innocent people" and "don't rape"), then they are inherently calling on something outside of...

Ok, so if I come over to your house and slash the tires on your car, will you say : "That was wrong" ? Ok, gotcha. Then to be consistent with your views, it wasn't wrong for those societies to do what they did. That was simply *their* moral code, and who are we to push our morals on them ...

thanx for the warm welcome Nancy !

Dunno what you are asking. I wasn't aware there were multiple definitions of "existence" . The context of the sentence that I used it in, should be pretty self-evident. So you've lost me bro.

Truth-OT, I am absolutely stunned by this reply. So then *on your view*, you can not look back at 75 yrs. ago, and say "The Nazi's were wrong". Oh sure, you could *say* it, but it would only be a subjective view. Kind of like ice-cream flavors : You happen to *prefer* chocolate. Someone...

Aaahhh, I see you answered my question in the very next post. HHhhhmmm, interesting. Ok then let's take this for a test drive: On your view, those deep south states that had Jim Crow laws , that they deemed "socially acceptable " and were of "social value", were therefore morally ok. Right ...