EPHESIANS 4:8 CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE

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Doug

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Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Does this verse say that Christ, after his resurrection, led the old testament saints into heaven?

The first thing to examine is, what does it mean to lead captivity captive.

Judges 5:12 Awake, awake, Deborah: awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead thy captivity captive, thou son of Abinoam.

This song commemorates Israel being freed, in Judges 4:14, from the captivity of Sisera.

Isaiah 14:2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

In the above verse, when it says "they shall take them captives, whose captives they were", it is saying, Israel shall take captive, those who held them in captivity.

It can therefore be concluded, that to lead captivity captive, is to take into captivity, those who beforehand oppressed.

Psalm 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Psalm 68 above says, "thou hast received gifts for men: yea, for the rebellious also": Israel was counted among the rebellious when, in Acts 2:23, they were accused of slaying Jesus, the Lord of glory.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Psalm 68:18 says that Jesus "hast received gifts for men", which can be evidenced in the verse above when the Holy Ghost was shed forth unto Israel (Luke 24:49 Acts 1:4).

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

If it is contended that the old testament saints were taken to heaven after the resurrection of Christ, it is not supported by the fact that David, an old testament saint for sure, has not ascended into heaven.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

In fact, according to John, no man had yet ascended up to heaven.

John 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

John, in the above verse, sets the time frame of his epistle, as being after the resurrection of Christ, and eliminates the contention to place John 3:13 before the resurrection, which would favor saying that men ascended into heaven after the resurrection.

Ephesians 4:8 can be best understood in light of the following verses:

Colossains 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Christ spoiled principalities in heavenly places, that is the devil and his angels.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

This verse asserts that Christ, through death, destroyed the devil.

[2Ti 2:26 KJV] 26 And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Christ did not empty paradise when he ascended, but rather he led the captivity of the devil, captive.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Paradise, as I understand it, is Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:19-31). In Luke 23:43, today is significant, in that, it specifies that Christ has yet to ascend into heaven according to John 20:17, and therefore, would not be taking one of the malefactors to heaven.

The last verse to consider is [Rev 13:10 KJV] 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The Devil led us into his captivity and was taken captive.
 

rebuilder 454

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Acts 2
33 Therefore, [ak]since He has been exalted [al]at the right hand of God, and has received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, He has poured out this which you both see and hear. 34 For it was not David who ascended into [am]heaven, but he himself says:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’

Your spin needs to be corrected.
Read it again.
Just read for content, not for doctrine.
It in no way backs up what you are implying.

Basic bible teaching is that paradise was below the earth and Jesus emptied it and took those in it to heaven.

It is like a basket weave.
Tamper with it, and pull out a strand. Now you got a mess.
 
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rebuilder 454

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Is there a verse for this that says paradise was emptied
It was below the earth as the bible teaches.
Jesus preached the gospel to the captives
They were resurrected
It was emptied
Paradise now in heaven.
Basic bible teaching.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Acts 2
33 Therefore, [ak]since He has been exalted [al]at the right hand of God, and has received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, He has poured out this which you both see and hear. 34 For it was not David who ascended into [am]heaven, but he himself says:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’

Your spin needs to be corrected.
Read it again.
Just read for content, not for doctrine.
It in no way backs up what you are implying.

Basic bible teaching is that paradise was below the earth and Jesus emptied it and took those in it to heaven.

It is like a basket weave.
Tamper with it, and pull out a strand. Now you got a mess.
It was below the earth as the bible teaches.
Jesus preached the gospel to the captives
They were resurrected
It was emptied
Paradise now in heaven.
Basic bible teaching.

Thank you for posting. These days there is so much - and I say this without intending to be insulting - but faithless teaching going around that less and less know what the doctrines of the early church actually were. And without it they screw up passage after passage until there's hardly a thing they can read for long without having virtually no possibility of following the context, because they hit a passage that they have been indoctrinated incorrectly about and the train of thought goes off the rails.

Nice to see defense of good sound doctrines still.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him
 

rebuilder 454

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Thank you for posting. These days there is so much - and I say this without intending to be insulting - but faithless teaching going around that less and less know what the doctrines of the early church actually were. And without it they screw up passage after passage until there's hardly a thing they can read for long without having virtually no possibility of following the context, because they hit a passage that they have been indoctrinated incorrectly about and the train of thought goes off the rails.

Nice to see defense of good sound doctrines still.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him
Yes
I would also add that when David said " you will not leave my soul in sheol" he was prophesying under the anointing, knowing in the spirit, the place he was going ,was adjacent to hell and that they would be rescued eventually.
They were there , awaiting the Messiah.
Payment was yet to be made.
The blood of Jesus .

So glorious!!!!!!
 

rebuilder 454

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Thank you for posting. These days there is so much - and I say this without intending to be insulting - but faithless teaching going around that less and less know what the doctrines of the early church actually were. And without it they screw up passage after passage until there's hardly a thing they can read for long without having virtually no possibility of following the context, because they hit a passage that they have been indoctrinated incorrectly about and the train of thought goes off the rails.

Nice to see defense of good sound doctrines still.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him
I somehow was fortunate to be surrounded by powerful teachers.
Oswald chambers
Lester Rolloff
Watchman nee
John bunyan
Chuck missler.

I got saved in a amil church. I quickly was pulled aside supernaturally to be shown the error of that doctrine.
I feel so bad for those caught up in it.
 
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Hidden In Him

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I somehow was fortunate to be surrounded by powerful teachers.
Oswald chambers
Lester Rolloff
Watchman nee
John bunyan
Chuck missler.

I got saved in a amil church...I feel so bad for those caught up in it.

I have a friend who is battling the amils right now as a matter of fact. Told me to come get in the mix if things get too bad. Told him I'll think about it, LoL.
I quickly was pulled aside supernaturally to be shown the error of that doctrine.

Is your testimony anywhere where I could read it by any chance? I'd like to read it.
 
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rebuilder 454

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I have a friend who is battling the amils right now as a matter of fact. Told me to come get in the mix if things get too bad. Told him I'll think about it, LoL.


Is your testimony anywhere where I could read it? Been awhile since I've been active here, but I've been thinking about getting back into things, and yours is a new face around here since I've been away.
If we are in the millennium, that means the tribulation has come and gone. Which means the Antichrist has come and gone.
And the flying scorpions have come and gone. The worldwide mark has come and gone.
And satan is. chained during the millennium.

Beyond bizarre.
Flat earth stuff.
 
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Doug

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It was below the earth as the bible teaches.
Jesus preached the gospel to the captives
They were resurrected
It was emptied
Paradise now in heaven.
Basic bible teaching.
what verse is that?
 

Hidden In Him

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what verse is that?

Doug, if you could, please give me your exegesis of 1 Peter 3:17-22. I'm curious how you interpret it.

17 It is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
 

Doug

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Doug, if you could, please give me your exegesis of 1 Peter 3:17-22. I'm curious how you interpret it.

17 It is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
Jesus died for Israels sins....Paul would be given revelation that we were redeemed as well....I dont know who the spirits in prison are (doesnt say)...baptism saves believing Israel by the resurrection of Christ....Israel had assurance he was alive and would return to establish their kingdom on earth
 

Hidden In Him

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Jesus died for Israels sins....Paul would be given revelation that we were redeemed as well....I dont know who the spirits in prison are (doesnt say)...baptism saves believing Israel by the resurrection of Christ....Israel had assurance he was alive and would return to establish their kingdom on earth

I think rebuilder would likely be answering you with this as one of his passages, and answering who the spirits He preached to is a vital part of the interpretation there, but I will let him respond for himself.

Blessings, and I was just curious about your position on it.
- H
 

Doug

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I think rebuilder would likely be answering you with this as one of his passages, and answering who the spirits He preached to is a vital part of the interpretation there, but I will let him respond for himself.

Blessings, and I was just curious about your position on it.
- H
anytime
I dont go beyond scripture but will say those in prison cant be said to be believers taken out of Abrahams bosom to heaven since I dont know of a scripture saying that
 

Hidden In Him

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I dont go beyond scripture but will say those in prison cant be said to be believers taken out of Abrahams bosom to heaven since I dont know of a scripture saying that

You are referring to Luke 16:22? The expression has roots within Judaism which predate its use by our Lord:

During the Second Temple period (roughly 500 BCE–70 CE), the concept of a "Bosom of Abraham" first occurs in Jewish papyri that refer to the "Bosom of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob".[9] This reflects the belief of Jewish martyrs who died expecting that: "after our death in this fashion Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will receive us and all our forefathers will praise us" (4 Maccabees 13:17).[10] Other early Jewish works adapt the picture of Hades to identify the righteous dead as being separated from unrighteous in the fires by a river or chasm. In the pseudepigraphical Apocalypse of Zephaniah the river has a ferryman equivalent to Charon in Greek myth, but replaced by an angel. On the other side in the Bosom of Abraham : "You have escaped from the Abyss and Hades, now you will cross over the crossing place... to all the righteous ones, namely Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Enoch, Elijah and David."[11] In this story Abraham was not idle in the Bosom of Abraham, he acted as intercessor for those in the fiery part of Hades.[12]

The pseudepigraphic Book of Enoch describes travels through the cosmos and divides Sheol into four sections: for the truly righteous, the good, the wicked who are punished till they are released at the resurrection, and the wicked that are complete in their transgressions and who will not even be granted mercy at the resurrection. However, since the book is pseudepigraphic to the hand of Enoch, who predates Abraham, naturally the character of Abraham does not feature.

 

Doug

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You are referring to Luke 16:22? The expression has roots within Judaism which predate its use by our Lord:

During the Second Temple period (roughly 500 BCE–70 CE), the concept of a "Bosom of Abraham" first occurs in Jewish papyri that refer to the "Bosom of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob".[9] This reflects the belief of Jewish martyrs who died expecting that: "after our death in this fashion Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will receive us and all our forefathers will praise us" (4 Maccabees 13:17).[10] Other early Jewish works adapt the picture of Hades to identify the righteous dead as being separated from unrighteous in the fires by a river or chasm. In the pseudepigraphical Apocalypse of Zephaniah the river has a ferryman equivalent to Charon in Greek myth, but replaced by an angel. On the other side in the Bosom of Abraham : "You have escaped from the Abyss and Hades, now you will cross over the crossing place... to all the righteous ones, namely Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Enoch, Elijah and David."[11] In this story Abraham was not idle in the Bosom of Abraham, he acted as intercessor for those in the fiery part of Hades.[12]

The pseudepigraphic Book of Enoch describes travels through the cosmos and divides Sheol into four sections: for the truly righteous, the good, the wicked who are punished till they are released at the resurrection, and the wicked that are complete in their transgressions and who will not even be granted mercy at the resurrection. However, since the book is pseudepigraphic to the hand of Enoch, who predates Abraham, naturally the character of Abraham does not feature.

Ok but doesn't have any bearing as far as scripture
 

Hidden In Him

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there is no other verse that states Abraham's bosom so I dont know

But with all due respect, how many verses would you need? There are other things mentioned only once in scripture, and when this happens we are called upon to trust the word of God for the one time it is mentioned, understanding it in its Judeo-Christian context the way the Jews and early Christians did.
 
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Doug

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But with all due respect, how many verses would you need? There are other things mentioned only once in scripture, and when this happens we are called upon to trust the word of God for the one time it is mentioned, understanding it in its Judeo-Christian context the way the Jews and early Christians did.
You asked how they would understand what Abraham's bosom was and I was saying there is no other scripture that addresses that so I dont know