The Bible is Father-Centric not Christo-Centric

Matthias · Apr 7, 2025

Rockerduck said:
It says the Word was with God and the Word was God.

That’s right.

Rockerduck said:
So Jesus is the Word of God and is God. Wouldn't that be Jesus centered as God and equal to God. Philippians 2.6

There are three possible ways to read John’s prologue. Two of them are compatible with Jewish monotheism.

I don’t see John 1:1 as being Jesus-centered. I see John 1:1 as being God-centered - which is to say, Father-centered.

Jesus equal with God? Yes, but not in the way which non-Jews understand him to be.

What you’re doing is reading Jesus into John 1:1.

Mindcruiser · Apr 7, 2025

Matthias said:
That’s right.

There are three possible ways to read John’s prologue. Two of them are compatible with Jewish monotheism.

I don’t see John 1:1 as being Jesus-centered. I see John 1:1 as being God-centered - which is to say, Father-centered.

Jesus equal with God? Yes, but not in the way which non-Jews understand him to be.

What you’re doing is reading Jesus into John 1:1.

Yes, reading into or even substituting or interchanging symbols/titles/names indiscriminately that are only done to please and fit a human desire or theory that can never be proven. And in reality 'they' cannot be there, or proven to relate or be the same in the most possible way imaginable, and especially if context is then attempted to be introduced. And that's why context will be usually absent in this area of thought and scripture.

I would love to read some rational context behind forcing this famous or infamous symbol: 'logos', as now a capitalized 'word' for the man and Son of God, as the common copyists' biased translation of choice.

quietthinker · Apr 7, 2025

Mindcruiser said:
The Christian apologetic should be reaffirming and defending his beliefs and faith to others by arguing for a doctrine(s) with a Father centric message(s) of hope and salvation rather than wrapped neatly in a Christocentric message(s). If not understood and believed that scripture reaffirms a Father-to-Son relationship first, then even the most simple and common Christocentric message eventually unravels and becomes chaotic and confused. This is my premise and personal belief.

As one source puts it...Albert Emanuel 2017...

"The Bible is Father-Centric, not Christocentric. The entire bible revolves around the central role of God the
Father in the plan of salvation. God the Father is the God of Israel, the God of Jesus, and the God of
Christians. It was God the Father who sent His Son, sacrificed His Son, and resurrected His Son. The Bible is primarily about God the Father and secondarily about Christ the Son. The biblical emphasis is upon God the Father. Jesus constantly and continuously emphasized God the Father. The Lord's prayer is entirely about God the Father. The kingdom and the power and the glory belong to God the Father. The kingdom of God is the kingdom of God the Father, not the kingdom of Christ. The time has come for the theological restoration of God the Father to His rightful place as the one ultimate and absolute God of Gods....."

Don't you find it noteworthy how Jesus gets all the accolades in the book of Revelation?....that should tell us something.
In the book of Hebrews, Jesus is also drawn to our attention....as well as the reason.

Mindcruiser · Apr 7, 2025

quietthinker said:
Don't you find it noteworthy how Jesus gets all the accolades in the book of Revelation?....that should tell us something.
In the book of Hebrews, Jesus is also drawn to our attention....as well as the reason.

Well I hope you think as I do, that this book is entitled the revelation of Jesus the Messiah for a reason, many reasons. And we can both list them. And even this book is solidly still Father God-centric if you continue to use the same approach in thought and heart as in the other books.
The accolades of course are given to Jesus as the only worthy person as the anointed one and his God chose him, before time.

And of course the same in Hebrews - still God-centric. And yet we tend to hide this Father elephant in the room, this major current or driving force in every single Book of the New Testament for no reason except by the enticement and the excitement of false teachings.

We must not overlook seemingly uninteresting passages of scripture as we race for the action parts that Jesus performs...it is a recent modern view of reading the scriptures...falsely.

(Rev 1:1) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things which must shortly come to pass; which he sent and put into sign by his Angel to his servant John;

(Rev 4:2) Immediately I was in the Spirit, and beheld a throne set in heaven; and one sitting upon the throne.
.......
(Rev 4:11) Worthy are you, our Lord, to receive the glory and the honour and the power. For you did create all things, and for your sake they existed and were created.

And these three verses as you well know is about the Father God not his Son...as many falsely believe. They are clearly centric.

And when one continues down this crooked deceitful road, one then believes not only in a false Christ, also a false Father who is God!! One attempts to twist and turn this entire scripture and discussion biased to a Christocentric subject and approach, rather than the Father God - centric approach that is the only approach in scripture.

You are making my point and the reason why this OP and thread is so vital to research and discuss.

Anyway, thank you for your input from down-under....cheers

Matthias · Apr 7, 2025

“When God is at the center of your life, everything falls into place.” - David Jeremiah

Sounds God-centered to me.

Does he mean:

1. When the Father is the center of your life?; or

2. When Jesus is the center of your life?; or

3. When the Trinity is the center of your life?

Being trinitarian, I doubt he means the Father, he may mean Jesus (which would actually make his comment Messiah-centered) but he probably means the Trinity.

quietthinker · Apr 8, 2025

Mindcruiser said:
Well I hope you think as I do, that this book is entitled the revelation of Jesus the Messiah for a reason, many reasons. And we can both list them. And even this book is solidly still Father God-centric if you continue to use the same approach in thought and heart as in the other books.
The accolades of course are given to Jesus as the only worthy person as the anointed one and his God chose him, before time.

And of course the same in Hebrews - still God-centric. And yet we tend to hide this Father elephant in the room, this major current or driving force in every single Book of the New Testament for no reason except by the enticement and the excitement of false teachings.

We must not overlook seemingly uninteresting passages of scripture as we race for the action parts that Jesus performs...it is a recent modern view of reading the scriptures...falsely.

(Rev 1:1) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things which must shortly come to pass; which he sent and put into sign by his Angel to his servant John;

(Rev 4:2) Immediately I was in the Spirit, and beheld a throne set in heaven; and one sitting upon the throne.
.......
(Rev 4:11) Worthy are you, our Lord, to receive the glory and the honour and the power. For you did create all things, and for your sake they existed and were created.

And these three verses as you well know is about the Father God not his Son...as many falsely believe. They are clearly centric.

And when one continues down this crooked deceitful road, one then believes not only in a false Christ, also a false Father who is God!! One attempts to twist and turn this entire scripture and discussion biased to a Christocentric subject and approach, rather than the Father God - centric approach that is the only approach in scripture.

You are making my point and the reason why this OP and thread is so vital to research and discuss.

Anyway, thank you for your input from down-under....cheers

The Father chose to reveal himself in the Son.
There is none other that unveils the Fathers heart as clearly as the Son.
It was the Son who gave the Commandments to Moses on Sinai and followed the Hebrews in their wanderings. It was the Son who appeared to Abraham and the Patriarchs.
Glorifying the Son is what the Father does and glorifying the Father is what the Son does....and when the Spirit is present he also glorifies the Son.
It is never a crooked deceitful road to glorify the Son. In fact without the Son the Father is veiled as is witnessed by the many misunderstandings the ancients had of the Father.

Matthias · Apr 8, 2025

quietthinker said:
The Father chose to reveal himself in the Son.
There is none other that unveils the Fathers heart as clearly as the Son.
It was the Son who gave the Commandments to Moses on Sinai and followed the Hebrews in their wanderings. It was the Son who appeared to Abraham and the Patriarchs.
Glorifying the Son is what the Father does and glorifying the Father is what the Son does....and when the Spirit is present he also glorifies the Son.
It is never a crooked deceitful road to glorify the Son. In fact without the Son the Father is veiled as is witnessed by the many misunderstandings the ancients had of the Father.

The Son didn’t “reveal” the Father - the Father was already known to the Jews - and it wasn’t the Son who gave the commandments on Sinai. It was not the Son who appeared to Abraham and the Patriarchs. (And see Paul for the rock that followed them in the wilderness.)

The Jews already knew that the one true God - Yahweh - is the Father alone. That is Jewish monotheism.

The Father is the one God of the Hebrew Bible and the one God of the New Testament. I’ve demonstrated this time and time again from scripture using the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology.

P.S.

@Mindcruiser I just noticed that I replied to a post that was addressed to you, not to me. My apologies. [Whenever there is a post that I want to respond to that is addressed to someone else, I either wait until that person has replied before I comment or I allow time to pass before concluding that the person addressed has decided not to reply before I comment.]

Matthias · Apr 8, 2025

“We have one Father, God.”

(John 8:41)

The Jews weren’t / aren’t trinitarian or binitarian. They were / are unitarian. Their God was and is only one person, the Father.

The Father is the God of the Jews / the God of Israel. The Father alone is their God.

Jesus himself is a Jew. His God is only one person, the Father / Yahweh. Jesus is a Jewish monotheist, and Jewish monotheism is pure unitarianism.

David Lamb · Apr 8, 2025

Mindcruiser said:
Well it's not quite John 10:30 is it, where it says "I and the Father are one." There is nothing in this passage that claims the I as in Jesus is the actual expression as from his God, although Jesus did become the word or expression of his God. And they, together as John says before v30., Jesus worked with his Father as in one purpose, not as one in nature as I believe you are attempting to suggest here.

Jesus said in v30 that he and his Father work as one - together (John 14:11). The Son and the Father work in common purpose in the same Spirit and mind and purpose. See also John 17:11 and 21. Thus, they are ‘one’ as a figure of speech.

Now note that the ‘one’ of John 10:30b in Greek is ἕν (hen) and not εἷς (heis). The former is used as one in action, as in one agreement or one as in teamwork or in one purpose and the latter is used for one in (the same) person or related to a person. This should be sufficient evidence Christ never meant the same God as his Father.

But your claim seems to ignore the opening verses of John's gospel, which state clearly that the Word was in the beginning with God, and the Word was God:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.” (Joh 1:1-3 NKJV)

We see from v14 that by "the Word," Jesus Christ is meant:

“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” (Joh 1:14 NKJV)

Incidentally, the verses I have quoted show that Jesus did not "become the word or expression of his God," as you say. The Word was there "in the beginning," and the Word was God.

Rockerduck · Apr 8, 2025

Matthias said:
That’s right.

There are three possible ways to read John’s prologue. Two of them are compatible with Jewish monotheism.

I don’t see John 1:1 as being Jesus-centered. I see John 1:1 as being God-centered - which is to say, Father-centered.

Jesus equal with God? Yes, but not in the way which non-Jews understand him to be.

What you’re doing is reading Jesus into John 1:1.

That's because I have talked to Jesus. I know He is Yahweh. Compare Exodus 3:5 and Joshua 5:15 and notice the similar, "remove your shoes."

Matthias · Apr 8, 2025

Rockerduck said:
That's because I have talked to Jesus. I know He is Yahweh. Compare Exodus 3:5 and Joshua 5:15 and notice the similar, "remove your shoes."

Jesus of Nazareth is a Jewish monotheist. His God is Yahweh.

Matthias · Apr 8, 2025

John didn’t write, “In the beginning was Jesus,” nor did he write, “In the beginning was the Son” in John 1:1.

As the trinitarian scholar Colin Brown observed, to read John 1:1 as if John had written it either of those ways is a patent misreading of scripture.

Rockerduck · Apr 8, 2025

Matthias said:
Jesus of Nazareth is a Jewish monotheist. His God is Yahweh.

Not from my conversations with Him.

Matthias · Apr 8, 2025

Rockerduck said:
Not from my conversations with Him.

From scripture.

Matthias · Apr 8, 2025

@Rockerduck when you spoke with Jesus, did he tell you that he doesn’t have a God?

Mindcruiser · Apr 8, 2025

quietthinker said:
The Father chose to reveal himself in the Son.
There is none other that unveils the Fathers heart as clearly as the Son.
It was the Son who gave the Commandments to Moses on Sinai and followed the Hebrews in their wanderings. It was the Son who appeared to Abraham and the Patriarchs.
Glorifying the Son is what the Father does and glorifying the Father is what the Son does....and when the Spirit is present he also glorifies the Son.
It is never a crooked deceitful road to glorify the Son. In fact without the Son the Father is veiled as is witnessed by the many misunderstandings the ancients had of the Father.

Yes, the Father did of course reveal himself within his Son. And the Hebrews already knew of him. He actually spoke HIS word through him, his Son, many times. and still does today. No question about it.

I do not agree with you that the Son existed at that time in Exodus, let alone giving any Commandments to anyone. I believe the Father's son was conceived and born of a particular day per scripture, without any controversy as the second and last Adam, per scripture.

The Son always glorifies the Father who is his God, for his God's sake. The Father never glorifies his Son for only his Son's sake. The Son never glorifies himself for his own sake. The Son loves his Father more that you can imagine to never want to take credit that is his Father due and only given him.

Yes, not only is the entire Bible Father-God centric it is also only Father-God glorification centric as well, and for no one else.

As Jesus spoke of the greatest commandment that not only we are to obey, he also obeyed it and does today.

(Mat 22:36) Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?
(Mat 22:37) And he said to him: You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
(Mat 22:38) This is the great and first commandment.

You see, Jesus has a God, the same one who generated the 10 Commandments on the Mountain and gave them to Moses. He is a single- person God and his Son always glorifies him. Jesus, the perfect reflection of his Father's characters, in mind and heart. There is no other non-mere human person that every lived and there will be no other in the future. He is one of a kind. Praise our Father for it and I will always give my friend and master his due in glorification as it suits my God, the same one as my friend, I have in Jesus.

(Rev 5:11) And I looked, and I heard a voice of many angels round about the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.
(Rev 5:12) They were saying with a great voice: Worthy is the Lamb that has been slain to receive the power, riches, wisdom, might, honour, glory and blessing.
(Rev 5:13) And I heard every created thing in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying: To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb, be blessing, honour, glory and might, for ever and ever.
(Rev 5:14) And the four living creatures said: Amen. And the elders fell down and worshiped.

(Php 2:9) Wherefore God highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name-
(Php 2:10) that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the earth,
(Php 2:11) and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I see you take exception concerning the path that leads to distortions and false claims. It is never wrong to glorify the Son, with one major caveat, that we do it only with his Father in mind as obtaining it for HIS own Glory. Again this is the mind and heart-set and why this is yet another example as to why the Bible is geared and created for a Father God-centric approach to its understanding. Anything else will cause distortions and false claims, not only about the Father. the Son as well. And I've not even considered yet, the composition of the Father, his own Holy Spirit in this mix.

Mindcruiser · Apr 8, 2025

Matthias said:
The Son didn’t “reveal” the Father - the Father was already known to the Jews - and it wasn’t the Son who gave the commandments on Sinai. It was not the Son who appeared to Abraham and the Patriarchs. (And see Paul for the rock that followed them in the wilderness.)

The Jews already knew that the one true God - Yahweh - is the Father alone. That is Jewish monotheism.

The Father is the one God of the Hebrew Bible and the one God of the New Testament. I’ve demonstrated this time and time again from scripture using the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology.

P.S.

@Mindcruiser I just noticed that I replied to a post that was addressed to you, not to me. My apologies. [Whenever there is a post that I want to respond to that is addressed to someone else, I either wait until that person has replied before I comment or I allow time to pass before concluding that the person addressed has decided not to reply before I comment.]

Cool, press on there, most guided-one. I don't care if you responded Matthias...all good

Mindcruiser · Apr 8, 2025

David Lamb said:
But your claim seems to ignore the opening verses of John's gospel, which state clearly that the Word was in the beginning with God, and the Word was God:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.” (Joh 1:1-3 NKJV)

We see from v14 that by "the Word," Jesus Christ is meant:

“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” (Joh 1:14 NKJV)

Incidentally, the verses I have quoted show that Jesus did not "become the word or expression of his God," as you say. The Word was there "in the beginning," and the Word was God.

I don't believe I ignored scripture as it was not directly pertinent to my poster's words or for my response back to him. It was not necessary. If I ignored this portion of scripture as you say, John 1:1-3, then I surely ignored much more; as you then might say, all out of ignorance?

I guess you want my take on your pet explanation of John 1:1-3?

Firstly, on the surface, I see you committed the err of circular reasoning or illogical reasoning.

You claim that in John 1:1 the Son of God is present in the Greek transliterated symbol, the logos. You then claim that this same symbol logos is also present in v.14 of John is also support for the Son of God. And then you leave it at that and supply no substance to your claim. You have just created a circular false reasoning circuit or orbit with it orbital axis at verses 1(2 or 3) and 14.

So before I execute my serious explanation of this scripture, that you eagerly dangled in front of me, please explain your lack of substance in your less than performing argument for your claim, that Jesus is the intrinsic core attribute of his Father, who is also his God.

Rockerduck · Apr 8, 2025

Matthias said:
@Rockerduck when you spoke with Jesus, did he tell you that he doesn’t have a God?

In the Spirit, I was in the Fathers room and could not see His face, I wanted to write the Fathers name on paper, but I was forbidden. Jesus and the Holy Spirit were there too. I could list several scriptures, but the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one. Gal 2:20 is Christ in us. John 15:26 Jesus sends the Holy Spirit from the Father. All 3 are one. They speak as one, John 16:13 the Holy Spirit speaks not from His own authority. God cannot divide thoughts because for them to us, is from all 3 is one. It is an infinite thought.

Matthias · Apr 8, 2025

Rockerduck said:
In the Spirit, I was in the Fathers room and could not see His face, I wanted to write the Fathers name on paper, but I was forbidden. Jesus and the Holy Spirit were there too. I could list several scriptures, but the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one. Gal 2:20 is Christ in us. John 15:26 Jesus sends the Holy Spirit from the Father. All 3 are one. They speak as one, John 16:13 the Holy Spirit speaks not from His own authority. God cannot divide thoughts because for them to us, is from all 3 is one. It is an infinite thought.

Blessed be the God and Father of our lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be Yahweh. (The tetragrammton is the personal name of God, and it is written over 6,000 times in the Hebrew Bible.)

In scripture, there is no God besides Yahweh. Everything else is idols.

The Bible is Father-Centric not Christo-Centric

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