Amillennialism is an obsolete and outdated eschatological fabrication.

Truth7t7 · Mar 18, 2025

shepherdsword said:
Amillennialism is an obsolete and outdated eschatological model. It is a fabrication invented due to the destruction of Israel in 70ad. Scholars were left with nothing to fulfill the remaining prophecies concerning Israel so they invented the church/Israel replacement model. However, with the reemergence of Israel as a nation we see an entity that is totally equipped to fulfill the remaining prophecies concerning Israel. Amil might have been a needed crutch at one time but events that occured in 1948 make the entire dogma an obsolete fabrication.
The fulfillment of this proves it:
Am 9:14-15
"Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel,
And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them;
They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine,
And make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 "I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land
Which I have given them,"
Says the Lord your God.

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

Jesus Christ fulfilled all the covenants and promises made to Abraham, its now salvation and the church and nothing more, God has no covenants with an ethnic people called "Jews" as dispensationalism falsely teaches in "Dual Covenant Theology"

Galatians 3:16KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

shepherdsword · Mar 18, 2025

Truth7t7 said:
Jesus returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

Jesus Christ fulfilled all the covenants and promises made to Abraham, its now salvation and the church and nothing more, God has no covenants with an ethnic people called "Jews" as dispensationalism falsely teaches in "Dual Covenant Theology"

Galatians 3:16KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

There is still a land covenant with the nation. The church has not replaced Israel. That is what is known as the false replacement theology.

Am 9:14-15
And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.

Marty fox · Mar 18, 2025

Spiritual Israelite said:
When Israel was brought back after the Babylonian captivity, who brought them back? It was God, right? And they were repentant and wanted to be back under God's rule, right? What evidence do you have that what happened in 1948 was God's doing? Most of them were not repentant and rejected Christ, so how can you think that God had anything to do with it?

Also, the Israel of God (the church) is God's chosen nation, not the earthly nation of Israel where most of the people there reject Christ.

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

The building built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ as its cornerstone is the church (Ephesians 2:19-22) and the church is the Israel of God and is God's chosen nation.

Amen Israeli forces even persecuted Christian Palestinians and cleared them off of their land is that something God would do?

God always blessed Israel when she repented.

Its not replacement theology its covenant theology the New covenant replaced the old covenant

Spiritual Israelite · Mar 18, 2025

shepherdsword said:
Sure thing brother

The destruction is sudden once the judgements begin. Lets look here
Rv 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

This is between the 6th and 7th vial. The destruction comes suddenly but it is a progression of every increasing judgements that culminate in the coming of the Lord. His coming as a thief doesn't mean what you think it does

This is an incredibly weak response. Where is your exegesis of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-13? Those are the passages I asked you to interpret and you didn't even bother doing so. How does what you're saying here agree with what is said in those passages? Show me. The verse you quoted shows that He will not have come yet as a thief as of the time of the sixth vial. But, 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 refer to what happens once He actually comes as a thief. So, can you please actually address what is written in those passages?

shepherdsword said:
Once again we see your compression of an event that is spanned out over many years.

Total nonsense. But, by all means, show me how this can be the case based on what is written in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-13. Are you saying that the earth will be burned up suddenly over the course of many years? Where are you addressing what it says in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

shepherdsword said:
Let's look here:

1 Co 15:23-26
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.(this is the purpose of the millenium)
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Here we see the progression. The elements do not pass away until the kingdom is delivered to the father and he creates the new heaven and new earth.

That text indicates that He delivers the kingdom to the Father at His second coming, so that passage definitely does not support Premill whatsoever. But, please, address what is written in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-13. You can use supporting scripture as well if you want, but I'm asking you to address what is written in those passages specifically, which you did not do in this post.

Spiritual Israelite · Mar 18, 2025

ewq1938 said:
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

This day of the Lord, in the next couple verses called the day of God, is not the second coming but a special day God does something BIG, which is the burning of the old Earth and Heaven, and the creation of the NHNE. It happens AFTER the GWTJ. Neither satan nor any of the unsaved exist on the new Earth which means they are all in the LOF before the old is burned and replaced by the new.

This is utter, complete nonsense. You are butchering scripture here. Paul taught that the day of the Lord is the same thing as the second coming. You are going out of your way to deny clear scripture, as Premills typically do.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

So, do you claim that the following passage, which is also about the day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night, is not the second coming?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Spiritual Israelite · Mar 18, 2025

Marty fox said:
Amen Israeli forces even persecuted Christian Palestinians and cleared them off of their land is that something God would do?

No, definitely not.

Marty fox said:
God always blessed Israel when she repented.

Right. There was no repentance involved in what happened in 1948.

Marty fox said:
Is not replacement theology its covenant theology the New covenant replaced the old covenant

Right.

Spiritual Israelite · Mar 18, 2025

shepherdsword said:
There is still a land covenant with the nation. The church has not replaced Israel. That is what is known as the false replacement theology.

No one says that the church replaced Israel. They are two separate entities and one did not replace the other. Your ridiculous "false replacement theology" accusation doesn't apply to what anyone actually believes, so it's just another straw man argument.

Marty fox · Mar 18, 2025

shepherdsword said:
There is still a land covenant with the nation. The church has not replaced Israel. That is what is known as the false replacement theology.

Am 9:14-15
And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.

Is not replacement theology its covenant theology the New covenant replaced the old covenant

shepherdsword · Mar 18, 2025

Spiritual Israelite said:
This is an incredibly weak response. Where is your exegesis of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-13? Those are the passages I asked you to interpret and you didn't even bother doing so. How does what you're saying here agree with what is said in those passages? Show me. The verse you quoted shows that He will not have come yet as a thief as of the time of the sixth vial. But, 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 refer to what happens once He actually comes as a thief. So, can you please actually address what is written in those passages?

1 Th 5:2-3
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10-13For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

(Rev 16 shows that this even happens during the long progression of wrath beginning at the 1st trumpet/vial. He comes as a thief during the 7th trumpet/vial, the elements melt during the creation of the NHNE

Spiritual Israelite said:
Total nonsense. But, by all means, show me how this can be the case based on what is written in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-13. Are you saying that the earth will be burned up suddenly over the course of many years? Where are you addressing what it says in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

What I am saying is that there is a gap between the coming of the Lord and the melting of the elements. You are viewing the verses through your paradigm that contradict an entire series of events between the coming of the Lord and the creation of the NHNE

Spiritual Israelite said:
That text indicates that He delivers the kingdom to the Father at His second coming, so that passage definitely does not support Premill whatsoever. But, please, address what is written in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-13. You can use supporting scripture as well if you want, but I'm asking you to address what is written in those passages specifically, which you did not do in this post.

No...read the verse again. It says he delivers the kingdom to the Father AFTER he has put all enemies beneath his feet

1 Co 15:23-24
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(His coming and the establishment of the kingdom)
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
(Satan unbound after the 1000 year reign and the destruction of Gog/magog)
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
(after this he hands up the kingdom. the element melt during the creation of the NHNE)

Blessings

Marty fox · Mar 18, 2025

shepherdsword said:
1 Th 5:2-3
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10-13For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

(Rev 16 shows that this even happens during the long progression of wrath beginning at the 1st trumpet/vial. He comes as a thief during the 7th trumpet/vial, the elements melt during the creation of the NHNE

What I am saying is that there is a gap between the coming of the Lord and the melting of the elements. You are viewing the verses through your paradigm that contradict an entire series of events between the coming of the Lord and the creation of the NHNE

No...read the verse again. It says he delivers the kingdom to the Father AFTER he has put all enemies beneath his feet

1 Co 15:23-24
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(His coming and the establishment of the kingdom)
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
(Satan unbound after the 1000 year reign and the destruction of Gog/magog)
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
(after this he hands up the kingdom. the element melt during the creation of the NHNE)

Blessings

Its a coming in judgement before the physical second coming at the end of our world

shepherdsword · Mar 18, 2025

Spiritual Israelite said:
No one says that the church replaced Israel. They are two separate entities and one did not replace the other. Your ridiculous "false replacement theology" accusation doesn't apply to what anyone actually believes, so it's just another straw man argument.

I guess you missed this by truth7t7

Truth7t7 said:
Jesus Christ fulfilled all the covenants and promises made to Abraham, its now salvation and the church and nothing more, God has no covenants with an ethnic people called "Jews" as dispensationalism falsely teaches in "Dual Covenant Theology"

Spiritual Israelite · Mar 18, 2025

shepherdsword said:
1 Th 5:2-3
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10-13For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

(Rev 16 shows that this even happens during the long progression of wrath beginning at the 1st trumpet/vial. He comes as a thief during the 7th trumpet/vial, the elements melt during the creation of the NHNE

No, it does not show that. Your arguments are so incredibly weak. You come on here with these weak arguments after foolishly claiming that Amillennialism is obsolete? Is this all you have to support your own obsolete doctrine? You're all talk.

Where do you see fire coming down on the entire earth, as 2 Peter 3:10-12 describes, starting at the 1st trumpet/vial? That's total nonsense. You are trying to make scripture say what you want it to say.

Address what the text actually says! Are you too afraid to do so? What the text in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 actually indicates is that the day of the Lord will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night. Are you with me so far? Nothing about events related to the 1st trumpet/vial. Stop that nonsense. And what happens when the day of the Lord arrives unexpectedly? According to Paul and Peter, what happens at that point is sudden, global destruction by fire occurs from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape". Where are you coming up with this nonsense that those passages talk about things that happen over the course of many years? They indicate no such thing whatsoever. It refers to "sudden destruction", not destruction that takes place over many years. You are not even looking at these passages carefully at all.

Also, in 2 Peter 3:13, Peter indicates that what we are to look for in fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming is the NHNE. Not some imaginary earthly millennial kingdom. Why are you not looking for what Peter said we should be looking for in fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming?

shepherdsword said:
What I am saying is that there is a gap between the coming of the Lord and the melting of the elements.

That is not indicated whatsoever in 2 Peter 3:10-12. You are trying to twist that passage to make it say what you want it to say.

shepherdsword said:
You are viewing the verses through your paradigm that contradict an entire series of events between the coming of the Lord and the creation of the NHNE

Total nonsense. What you're saying is not indicated in 2 Peter 3:10-13 whatsoever. Not even close.

shepherdsword said:
No...read the verse again. It says he delivers the kingdom to the Father AFTER he has put all enemies beneath his feet

Yes, exactly. I did not say otherwise. How about you pay attention to what I actually say instead of going by preconceived notions of what I'm saying?

shepherdsword said:
1 Co 15:23-24
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(His coming and the establishment of the kingdom)

Look at this! Unbelievable! You have the gall to add your own words to scripture as if they are scripture? There is no indication there whatsoever of a gap between His coming and the end.

Do you believe that Jesus will return at the end of the age? If so, look at this passage...

Matthew 13:40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Notice here that at the end of the age, which is when Jesus will return (Matt 24:3), "Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.". Why does Jesus call it "the kingdom of their Father"? Because He will deliver His kingdom that He reigns over now to the Father when He returns.

shepherdsword said:
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
(Satan unbound after the 1000 year reign and the destruction of Gog/magog)
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
(after this he hands up the kingdom. the element melt during the creation of the NHNE)

This is pathetic how you are adding your own words to scripture like this. Accept what Paul taught instead of trying to add to it and change it.

Spiritual Israelite · Mar 18, 2025

shepherdsword said:
I guess you missed this by truth7t7

First of all, don't assume that he and I agree about everything just because we are Amills. We disagree on a number of things. Premills don't all agree on everything, either.

But, anyway, in the case of what he said, what does that have to do with what I said? I said that the church and Israel are different entities and one did not replace the other and that is true. Do you deny this or do you agree with me about that? How about actually addressing what I say instead of what Truth7t7 says?

The Light · Mar 18, 2025

marks said:
PPS . . . if the early commentators had believed this passage, we wouldn't even have this false amillennialism.

Exactly. Amillennialism was birthed by unbelieving men that didn't believe God would keep His promise to Israel.

Truth7t7 · Mar 18, 2025

shepherdsword said:
There is still a land covenant with the nation. The church has not replaced Israel. That is what is known as the false replacement theology.

Am 9:14-15
And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.

The promised land of inheritance will be seen in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, as seen in Ezekiel chapters 47-48, the "Eternal Kingdom"

Ezekiel 48:29-35KJV

29 This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord God. 30 And these are the goings out of the city on the north side, four thousand and five hundred measures. 31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi. 32 And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan. 33 And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun. 34 At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali. 35 It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The Lord is there.

Revelation 21:10-13KJV

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

Ezekiel Below Is (The Eternal Kingdom) Same River And Tree Of life, Same Fruit On The Tree, Same Leaves Of The Tree For Healing/Medicine

(The Eternal Kingdom)

Ezekiel 47:12KJV
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

(The Eternal Kingdom)

Revelation 22:1-2KJV
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Truth7t7 · Mar 18, 2025

shepherdsword said:
There is still a land covenant with the nation. The church has not replaced Israel. That is what is known as the false replacement theology.

Am 9:14-15
And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.

The Israel Of God Is The Church

Gods words clearly show (Two Israel's) below

1.) Israel of the flesh (Jews)

2.) Israel of the promised seed (Church)

Scripture clearly teaches Israel of the flesh, they aren't the children of God, it's that simple

Romans 9:6-8KJV

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Yes the Kingdom of God has been taken from National Ethnic Israel, And Given To The Church, a "Holy Nation" as clearly seen below

Matthew 21:43KJV

3 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9KJV

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Spiritual Israelite · Mar 18, 2025

The Light said:
Exactly. Amillennialism was birthed by unbelieving men that didn't believe God would keep His promise to Israel.

It's one thing to disagree about these things, but it's another thing to lie about those you disagree with like you Premills do so often, including here. We Amills do NOT believe that God does not keep His promises to Israel. We just have a different understanding of His promises to Israel than you do and we understand that Gentile believers are "fellow heirs" of those promises since they were made to Christ and those who belong to Christ (Galatians 3:16;29; Ephesians 3:1-6).

Spiritual Israelite · Mar 18, 2025

Truth7t7 said:
The Israel Of God Is The Church
Gods words clearly show (Two Israel's) below

1.) Israel of the flesh (Jews)

2.) Israel of the promised seed (Church)

Scripture clearly teaches Israel of the flesh, they aren't the children of God, it's that simple

Romans 9:6-8KJV

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Yes the Kingdom of God has been taken from National Ethnic Israel, And Given To The Church, a "Holy Nation" as clearly seen below

Matthew 21:43KJV

3 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9KJV

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Agree, except we should clarify that the kingdom of God was only taken from unbelieving Jews like the Pharisees and scribes that Jesus ranted against (see Matthew 23) and not from believing Jews who remained in the kingdom.

The believing Jews were the elect remnant that Paul wrote about in Romans 11:1-7 and the kingdom of God was obviously not taken from them. They remained in the Israel of God (the church). I say this for the benefit of those who accuse us of believing in "replacement theology" to show that we do not claim that Israel as a whole was replaced as they think we do. Instead, Gentile believers were grafted in with them. Paul made it clear that God did not cast away national Israel because there was still a believing remnant (Romans 11:1-5), but these dispensationalists try to claim that we believe God cast Israel away completely.

marks · Mar 18, 2025

Spiritual Israelite said:
It's one thing to disagree about these things, but it's another thing to lie about those you disagree with like you Premills do so often, including here. We Amills do NOT believe that God does not keep His promises to Israel. We just have a different understanding of His promises to Israel than you do and we understand that Gentile believers are "fellow heirs" of those promises since they were made to Christ and those who belong to Christ (Galatians 3:16;29; Ephesians 3:1-6).

And to do this, you must deny the clear ethnic references to "the house of Israel", "the seed of Israel", "the house of Judah", "Jacob", all these pinpoint the nation of Israel as understood in the prophet's day.

There are many clear references to Israel as that people, but many today deny this, and transfer these promises to a different people, claiming that's what God really meant.

No, you don't believe God will keep His promise to That Israel. God made promises to That Israel, which you deny.

Much love!

Spiritual Israelite · Mar 18, 2025

marks said:
And to do this, you must deny the clear ethnic references to "the house of Israel", "the seed of Israel", "the house of Judah", "Jacob", all these pinpoint the nation of Israel as understood in the prophet's day.

The key thing you said there is "as understood in the prophet's day". Do you understand that further revelation came after that? Or do you think the New Testament doesn't provide any further insight to anything? Do you think that what Paul wrote in Romans 9:6-8 was already made clear in the OT and he didn't really need to write it?

Here's something that would be very helpful. Can you tell me how exactly do you interpret this passage?

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

See, people like you falsely claim that Amills like me believe in "replacement theology". But, you don't seem to understand that we believe in two different Israels, as Paul wrote about, and we don't claim that one replaces the other.

I have one other question. When the Old Testament refers to God's promises to Abraham and his seed, who do you think is the seed that is referring to?

marks said:
There are many clear references to Israel as that people, but many today deny this, and transfer these promises to a different people, claiming that's what God really meant.

Do you accept what is written in the New Testament or not? It does not seem like you do. Do you not accept what Paul wrote here....

Ephesians 3:1
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Do you make the same kind of criticisms against Paul and what he taught that you do against what Amills believe, which is based on what Paul taught? Why would you deny that "Gentiles are heirs together with Israel" of God's promises made to Israel when Paul explicitly taught that? You talked about what was "understood in the prophet's day". Guess what? They didn't have the full understanding of things yet in their day. Look at the passage above. That the Gentiles would be heirs together with Israel of God's promises was a mystery in the OT prophet's day. But, it's not a mystery anymore. Why is it still a mystery to you?

marks said:
No, you don't believe God will keep His promise to That Israel.

That is not true. I do believe that, but I just have a different understanding of it than you do. Should I say you don't believe that since you don't have the same understanding as I do? No, I'm not going to do that. We both believe it, but just in a different way.

I'll tell you the part of national Israel that I know God did not cast away and kept His promise to. Paul wrote about that here...

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Do you agree that God did not cast away his people Israel in Paul's time? I would hope so. I do. God has never cast them away and never will. Agree? So, He never casts them away and always keeps His promises to them. But, what I think you don't understand is that God does not have to save all of them some day in order for it to be true that He hasn't cast them away and keeps His promises to them. Instead, it should be clear that if even only a remnant of Israel is saved, it can still be said that God did not cast away his people Israel and kept His promises to them.

marks said:
God made promises to That Israel, which you deny.

No, I do not. You have no excuse for misrepresenting what I believe like this. I go out of my way to clarify what I believe and you still misrepresent what I believe, showing that you are either a liar or have poor reading comprehension skills.

Amillennialism is an obsolete and outdated eschatological fabrication.

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

The Israel Of God Is The Church​

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

The Israel Of God Is The Church​

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

The Israel Of God Is The Church

The Israel Of God Is The Church