AMILLENNIALISM, A GNOSTIC DOCTRINE

Davy · Mar 4, 2025

Early in the 2nd century A.D., the early Christian Church suffered an influx of Greek and Roman philosophy which tried to mix Biblical Christian Doctrine with pagan philosophy associated with the ancient pagan 'mystery schools' who taught mysticism.

Early Church father Irenaeus of the 2nd century was probably one of the leading early Christian authors to expose the Gnostic filth that had crept into the Christian Church (See Irenaeus' work against Gnosticism called Against Heresies). Irenaeus had been a disciple of Polycarp who had been a disciple of Apostle John.

The Mysteries and The Mystery Religion:
The ancient pagan system of "The Mysteries" has it origins in ancient Sumer-Babylon, which was the first area historically of Baal idol worship which Sargon I initiated. These so-called Mysteries involve a priest cast who maintained their 'mystery' traditions, and screened new initiates petitioning to join in the Mysteries.

The Mystery system itself involved a claim of secret esoteric knowledge that was privy only to the initiated that had a natural leaning toward matters of higher or divine knowledge. The claim of course was and is false, but that claim is one of its trappings for the deceived who actually think the initiated possess the secrets of cosmic knowledge.

The Christian Gnostics did not actually believe that Lord Jesus really died on the cross, but that His disciples removed Him from the cross beforehand, and that Jesus lived to old age. They also believed that Jesus married and had children. These ideas can be seen still active among modern Gnostics in the story made into the movie The Da Vinci Code.

Gnosticism involves ancient far eastern ideas, like one must attain to salvation through spiritual exercise and practice, using secret knowledge. It proposes to be able to have 'direct knowledge' and 'direct experience' of God. That system is called Mysticism. It is the direct opposite of Christian Salvation through FAITH on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The old pagan Mysteries also proposed that their 'secret knowledge' contained certain mysteries from the beginning of time that when understood and applied, could influence natural events. By that it suggested one could work miracles using that, and thus become their own god. This was actually the temptation by the serpent upon Eve in God's Garden of Eden, telling Eve that she could become her own god by eating of the forbidden tree. If you understand that, then you can understand how Gnosticism, Mysticism, is directly from the devil himself.

Mind you, the system of Gnosticism does not use backward primitive savagery in its thinking. It's philosophy is not designed to be base or beastly attractive to psychopaths. It is designed to sound pleasant and attractive to the potentially deceived who are 'on the path' looking, so they say, for ultimate truth. Their system even uses many of the same type-sets that God uses in His Word for His servants. They claim with petitioning to join the Mysteries that by doing so, you have set yourself apart, as if having been 'called', and that you represent the Elect.

The Amillennialism Connection:
The connection with 2nd century Gnosticism and the theory of Amillennialism, which is when that doctrine began creeping into the early Christian Church, is with those ancient Mysteries.

Amillennialism theory attempts to move the "thousand years" reign by Christ of Revelation 20 back to the time beginning right after Christ's 1st coming, death and resurrection, until now. The actual Bible Scripture evidence of Revelation 20 and many other Bible references show that "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect only starts on the day of His future 2nd coming.

Why would the false Amill theory attempt to move Christ's future "thousand years" reign backwards in time, for this present world prior to His future return? With another modified version of the Amill theory, there are those who completely deny... that there will be any literal "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect, thus revealing yet another attempt to get rid of any idea of a future "thousand years" reign by Jesus Christ. What is their purpose for doing that?

One-World Government and The New World Order:
This is what Amill's false theories against the Biblical fact of Christ's future "thousand years" reign is designed to destroy. For this present world, ever since the devil fell from heaven, he has tried to establish another one-world kingdom upon this earth over all nations, so as to exalt himself as God and His Christ. For at least the past 22 centuries, since the time back to Solomon's temple, Satan's servants have been working towards that "one world government" future beast kingdom over all nations. Their workers have included, and still include some of the Who's Who in the world, and many of them are members of secret societies of initiation that you don't ever hear the media speak of (like the Freemasons, Rosicrucians as the Ancient Mystical Order Rosae Crucis or AMORC, Ordo Templi Orientis, Order of Hermes Trismegistus, Disciples of Pythagoras, Theosophy, Order of The Golden Dawn, Skull and Bones, Scroll and Key, and of course the Order of Illuminati, and many others you won't hear about in the media, because they control... the media outlets.)

Amill theory is thus designed to support... that idea by the secret societies they call "one world government" or "New World Order". It is to create in the mind of the Christian that today, for this present world time, is Christ's Kingdom already manifest here on earth, and that it is our job as Christians to bring all other nations and peoples to Christ, so Jesus can return and be over all. In reality, Amill theory is designed to trick Christians into working for... Satan's future beast kingdom of Revelation 13:1 that is to have ten kings, seven heads, and ten crowns, which is what "one world government" is about.

What God's Word instead teaches, is that THIS present world is preserved unto destruction by God's "consuming fire" on the "day of the Lord", which is the day of Christ's future 2nd coming. (2 Peter 3:10; Rev.16:15-17; Zechariah 14). And on that 'day' of Christ's future return, that is when His literal "thousand years" reign over the nations with His elect, will begin.

Rightglory · Mar 6, 2025

Davy said:
Early in the 2nd century A.D., the early Christian Church suffered an influx of Greek and Roman philosophy which tried to mix Biblical Christian Doctrine with pagan philosophy associated with the ancient pagan 'mystery schools' who taught mysticism.

Early Church father Irenaeus of the 2nd century was probably one of the leading early Christian authors to expose the Gnostic filth that had crept into the Christian Church (See Irenaeus' work against Gnosticism called Against Heresies). Irenaeus had been a disciple of Polycarp who had been a disciple of Apostle John.

The Mysteries and The Mystery Religion:
The ancient pagan system of "The Mysteries" has it origins in ancient Sumer-Babylon, which was the first area historically of Baal idol worship which Sargon I initiated. These so-called Mysteries involve a priest cast who maintained their 'mystery' traditions, and screened new initiates petitioning to join in the Mysteries.

The Mystery system itself involved a claim of secret esoteric knowledge that was privy only to the initiated that had a natural leaning toward matters of higher or divine knowledge. The claim of course was and is false, but that claim is one of its trappings for the deceived who actually think the initiated possess the secrets of cosmic knowledge.

The Christian Gnostics did not actually believe that Lord Jesus really died on the cross, but that His disciples removed Him from the cross beforehand, and that Jesus lived to old age. They also believed that Jesus married and had children. These ideas can be seen still active among modern Gnostics in the story made into the movie The Da Vinci Code.

Gnosticism involves ancient far eastern ideas, like one must attain to salvation through spiritual exercise and practice, using secret knowledge. It proposes to be able to have 'direct knowledge' and 'direct experience' of God. That system is called Mysticism. It is the direct opposite of Christian Salvation through FAITH on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The old pagan Mysteries also proposed that their 'secret knowledge' contained certain mysteries from the beginning of time that when understood and applied, could influence natural events. By that it suggested one could work miracles using that, and thus become their own god. This was actually the temptation by the serpent upon Eve in God's Garden of Eden, telling Eve that she could become her own god by eating of the forbidden tree. If you understand that, then you can understand how Gnosticism, Mysticism, is directly from the devil himself.

Mind you, the system of Gnosticism does not use backward primitive savagery in its thinking. It's philosophy is not designed to be base or beastly attractive to psychopaths. It is designed to sound pleasant and attractive to the potentially deceived who are 'on the path' looking, so they say, for ultimate truth. Their system even uses many of the same type-sets that God uses in His Word for His servants. They claim with petitioning to join the Mysteries that by doing so, you have set yourself apart, as if having been 'called', and that you represent the Elect.

The Amillennialism Connection:
The connection with 2nd century Gnosticism and the theory of Amillennialism, which is when that doctrine began creeping into the early Christian Church, is with those ancient Mysteries.

Amillennialism theory attempts to move the "thousand years" reign by Christ of Revelation 20 back to the time beginning right after Christ's 1st coming, death and resurrection, until now. The actual Bible Scripture evidence of Revelation 20 and many other Bible references show that "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect only starts on the day of His future 2nd coming.

Why would the false Amill theory attempt to move Christ's future "thousand years" reign backwards in time, for this present world prior to His future return? With another modified version of the Amill theory, there are those who completely deny... that there will be any literal "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect, thus revealing yet another attempt to get rid of any idea of a future "thousand years" reign by Jesus Christ. What is their purpose for doing that?

One-World Government and The New World Order:
This is what Amill's false theories against the Biblical fact of Christ's future "thousand years" reign is designed to destroy. For this present world, ever since the devil fell from heaven, he has tried to establish another one-world kingdom upon this earth over all nations, so as to exalt himself as God and His Christ. For at least the past 22 centuries, since the time back to Solomon's temple, Satan's servants have been working towards that "one world government" future beast kingdom over all nations. Their workers have included, and still include some of the Who's Who in the world, and many of them are members of secret societies of initiation that you don't ever hear the media speak of (like the Freemasons, Rosicrucians as the Ancient Mystical Order Rosae Crucis or AMORC, Ordo Templi Orientis, Order of Hermes Trismegistus, Disciples of Pythagoras, Theosophy, Order of The Golden Dawn, Skull and Bones, Scroll and Key, and of course the Order of Illuminati, and many others you won't hear about in the media, because they control... the media outlets.)

Amill theory is thus designed to support... that idea by the secret societies they call "one world government" or "New World Order". It is to create in the mind of the Christian that today, for this present world time, is Christ's Kingdom already manifest here on earth, and that it is our job as Christians to bring all other nations and peoples to Christ, so Jesus can return and be over all. In reality, Amill theory is designed to trick Christians into working for... Satan's future beast kingdom of Revelation 13:1 that is to have ten kings, seven heads, and ten crowns, which is what "one world government" is about.

What God's Word instead teaches, is that THIS present world is preserved unto destruction by God's "consuming fire" on the "day of the Lord", which is the day of Christ's future 2nd coming. (2 Peter 3:10; Rev.16:15-17; Zechariah 14). And on that 'day' of Christ's future return, that is when His literal "thousand years" reign over the nations with His elect, will begin.

There have been many variations of some form of Millennialism from earliest times. All modern views probably came from some earlier view. However most current modern forms probably started with William Miller in mid 19th century. Another one would be Darby. Today we have Lindsey, Walvoord, LaHaye, Scofield, and the list goes on.
However, just so you know the Church has never recognized any form of Millennialism. The Church condemned it in the Second Ecumenical Council of Constantinople in 381.
So, it seems millennial views are the gnostic ones. All based, throughout history, on one man's view and most died out within a short time, and others derived new and better views.

Davy · Mar 7, 2025

Rightglory said:
There have been many variations of some form of Millennialism from earliest times.

That statement is a FALSE LEAD IN.

The early 1st century Church fathers were all... Pre-millennialists. They believed The Bible Scriptures as written.

Only with the 2nd century did the false doctrine of Amillennialism creep into the Christian Church, which was also when the heresy of Gnosticism also began creeping in. And that false Amill doctrine had back then, and even up to now, deceived many brethren, just like Darby's preaching of a false Pre-trib Rapture theory has deceived many brethren since his doing that in 1830's Great Britain.

Spiritual Israelite · Mar 7, 2025

Davy said:
That statement is a FALSE LEAD IN.

The early 1st century Church fathers were all... Pre-millennialists. They believed The Bible Scriptures as written.

That's a lie. You have no conscience about lying.

Davy said:
Only with the 2nd century did the false doctrine of Amillennialism creep into the Christian Church, which was also when the heresy of Gnosticism also began creeping in. And that false Amill doctrine had back then, and even up to now, deceived many brethren, just like Darby's preaching of a false Pre-trib Rapture theory has deceived many brethren since his doing that in 1830's Great Britain.

This is a total lie. There is no relation between Amillennialism and Gnosticism. You are not able to refute the Amillennial doctrine with scripture, so you resort to spreading lies about Amillennialism instead of addressing the doctrine with scripture. It's pathetic. It's a desperation tactic that you're using and it's just downright embarrassing that you resort to this lie.

Davy · Mar 10, 2025

Spiritual Israelite said:
That's a lie. You have no conscience about lying.

YOU are the liar, because you REJECT all the many written Bible Scriptures showing Christ's future "thousand years" reign over the wicked and unsaved nations with His "rod of iron" which was first prophesied back in Psalms 2.

I have labored here to SHOW you Amillennialists what God's WRITTEN WORD actually says as written, BUT YOU REJECT HIS WORD to instead follow doctrines of the devil!

Spiritual Israelite said:
This is a total lie. There is no relation between Amillennialism and Gnosticism. You are not able to refute the Amillennial doctrine with scripture, so you resort to spreading lies about Amillennialism instead of addressing the doctrine with scripture. It's pathetic. It's a desperation tactic that you're using and it's just downright embarrassing that you resort to this lie.

Yes there is... a direct relation of man's false 2nd century Amill doctrines and Gnosticism.

That 2nd century era is when MANY HERESIES about Christ's crucifixion and illicit relationship with Mary Magdalene began creeping into the Christian Church by the 'Christian Gnostics'. They claimed Jesus did not really die... on the cross, but that His disciples removed Him from the cross before He died.

They also started the LIE that Jesus lived to an old age, and married Mary Magdalene and they had children! The movie The Da Vinci Code with Tom Hanks even suggested that very idea of Gnosticism, showing those behind Gnosticism still exist today!

There have been several books of pseudepigrapha works written by the followers of Gnosticism.

Amillennialism even follows the philosophical traits of un-scriptural Biblical allegory which got Origen of the Christian school at Alexandria, Egypt excommunicated. A simple example of how Amill does that is with its false attempt to 'spiritualize' the literal "thousand years" period written of in the Revelation 20 Chapter. When God's Word uses timelines that are meant literally, they do NOT include symbolic or allegorical references. And nowhere in Revelation 20 is that literal "thousand years" period given in allegorical form.

Thus YOU... are the one pushing LIES against The Word of God, and you will suffer God's punishment for it.

Davy · Mar 10, 2025

So be careful brethren with those pushing man's Amill theories, for those theories align with Satan's coming "New World Order" system of Revelation 13:1. Satan's host of secret fraternity initiates do exist in some Christian pulpits today. I know one who's father is a Freemason and a pastor over a pre-trib rapture teaching Church.

And don't be superstitious like Rightglory about terms like 'millennial', for that simply means 1,000. A millennium simply means 1,000.

Therefore, per God's Word, when does Lord Jesus return in the future in relation to the "thousand years" mentioned in Revelation 20?

The answer to that should be easy, because written there in Revelation 20 is the time of Christ's future reign over the nations with the Psalms 2 "rod of iron", AND with His elect overcomers that will have refused the mark or to bow to the image of the beast, as those are "great tribulation" time events, and they are shown being over at that point.

Spiritual Israelite · Mar 10, 2025

Davy said:
YOU are the liar, because you REJECT all the many written Bible Scriptures showing Christ's future "thousand years" reign over the wicked and unsaved nations with His "rod of iron" which was first prophesied back in Psalms 2.

He will not be reigning over anyone for a thousands years with a rod of iron. He will be destroying His enemies with it! You pay no attention to what the prophecy actually says.

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Davy said:
I have labored here to SHOW you Amillennialists what God's WRITTEN WORD actually says as written, BUT YOU REJECT HIS WORD to instead follow doctrines of the devil!

You're all talk. Your labor is in vain because you teach falsehood.

Davy said:
Yes there is... a direct relation of man's false 2nd century Amill doctrines and Gnosticism.

No, there is not. That is a lie. People who tell lies are liars. Therefore, you are a liar.

Davy said:
That 2nd century era is when MANY HERESIES about Christ's crucifixion and illicit relationship with Mary Magdalene began creeping into the Christian Church by the 'Christian Gnostics'. They claimed Jesus did not really die... on the cross, but that His disciples removed Him from the cross before He died.

That has nothing to do with Amillenniailsm. You are so desperate to promote your false doctrine that you resort to making up lies about Amillennialism. It's absolutely pathetic. You should be embarrassed.

Davy said:
They also started the LIE that Jesus lived to an old age, and married Mary Magdalene and they had children! The movie The Da Vinci Code with Tom Hanks even suggested that very idea of Gnosticism, showing those behind Gnosticism still exist today!

Again, this has nothing to do with Amillennialism whatsoever.

Davy said:
There have been several books of pseudepigrapha works written by the followers of Gnosticism.

Amillennialism even follows the philosophical traits of un-scriptural Biblical allegory which got Origen of the Christian school at Alexandria, Egypt excommunicated. A simple example of how Amill does that is with its false attempt to 'spiritualize' the literal "thousand years" period written of in the Revelation 20 Chapter. When God's Word uses timelines that are meant literally, they do NOT include symbolic or allegorical references. And nowhere in Revelation 20 is that literal "thousand years" period given in allegorical form.

Thus YOU... are the one pushing LIES against The Word of God, and you will suffer God's punishment for it.

Amillennialism takes literal scipture literally and figurative scripture figuratively. Amillennialism is primarily based on taking passages like Matthew 24:35-39, Matthew 25:31-46, Matthew 28:18, John 5:28-29, Ephesians 1:19-23, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 literally, but Premils try to falsely accuse Amills of spiritualizing everything. No, we interpret any given text according to the type of text being used.

Earburner · Mar 10, 2025

Davy said:
Why would the false Amill theory attempt to move Christ's future "thousand years" reign backwards in time, for this present world prior to His future return? With another modified version of the Amill theory, there are those who completely deny... that there will be any literal "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect, thus revealing yet another attempt to get rid of any idea of a future "thousand years" reign by Jesus Christ. What is their purpose for doing that?

It is sad to know that many professing Christians, like yourself, don't understand that the book of Revelation is directly from the Eternal mind of God the Father Himself (Rev. 1:1-2**), who speaks symbolically in the past, present and future, all at the same time.

There is no such time of a future period of a literal one thousand years to come, but there is a symbolic period of "a thousand years" having no end, except by God's own declaration, when He ENDS His "longsuffering" over us through this present Age of His Grace through faith in Jesus.

So yes, Amillennialists do believe in a period of "a thousand years", but we understand it to be symbolic, being that of this present time of God's "longsuffering", ever since Jesus' death and resurrection. 2 Peter 3:9, 15.

**Note- Rev. 1:1-2
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ,
> which God GAVE unto him,
> to SHEW unto his servants
> THINGS which must SHORTLY come to pass; [since Jesus' first appearance] and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
[2] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Davy · Mar 11, 2025

Earburner said:
It is sad to know that many professing Christians, like yourself, don't understand that the book of Revelation is directly from the Eternal mind of God the Father Himself (Rev. 1:1-2**), who speaks symbolically in the past, present and future, all at the same time.

Well you just made a false assumption about me.

I well understand how Christ's Book of Revelation is written in the style of the Old Testament Books of God's prophets, using many symbols and allegories and analogies. It's those brethren who stay only in The New Testament Books that don't know this.

Thus all you are doing is mocking because you apparently do... believe man's FALSE Amill theories which I was talking about in my post that quoted.

Earburner said:
There is no such time of a future period of a literal one thousand years to come, but there is a symbolic period of "a thousand years" having no end, except by God's own declaration, when He ENDS His "longsuffering" over us through this present Age of His Grace through faith in Jesus.

There most certainly IS... a future "thousand years" period of Christ's future reign with His elect over the unsaved nations.

It is well written of by God's Old Testament prophets, and per the Revelation 20 Chapter. And there are SO MANY FALSEHOODS to man's stupid Amill theory that directly disagrees with the written Bible Scripture, that the deceived by that fake Amill theory, like yourself, can't even figure out those simple falsehoods.

Earburner said:
So yes, Amillennialists do believe in a period of "a thousand years", but we understand it to be symbolic, being that of this present time of God's "longsuffering", ever since Jesus' death and resurrection. 2 Peter 3:9, 15.

There is NO SYMBOL being given in Revelation 20 about the "thousand years" period. We cannot... treat it like Ezekiel 4:6 where God gave Ezekiel a day to represent a year. Some try... to add that concept to many end time Bible prophecies when the Scripture does NOT give that idea. And the Rev.20 Chapter doesn't give that idea either, thus there is NO reason to treat that "thousand years" as being a symbol only. It is meant literally.

Earburner said:
**Note- Rev. 1:1-2
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ,
> which God GAVE unto him,
> to SHEW unto his servants
> THINGS which must SHORTLY come to pass; [since Jesus' first appearance] and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
[2] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Yeah, I know all about the abuse by some of that phrase "shortly come to pass". Preterists love to use that with their theories that most of Revelation is already history when it is not.

Rightglory · Mar 11, 2025

Davy said:
That statement is a FALSE LEAD IN.

The early 1st century Church fathers were all... Pre-millennialists. They believed The Bible Scriptures as written.

Only with the 2nd century did the false doctrine of Amillennialism creep into the Christian Church, which was also when the heresy of Gnosticism also began creeping in. And that false Amill doctrine had back then, and even up to now, deceived many brethren, just like Darby's preaching of a false Pre-trib Rapture theory has deceived many brethren since his doing that in 1830's Great Britain.

There were some Church Fathers who held these views but many were declared heritics for these views, Origin, Turtullian, Lactantius, Barnabas that come to mind, plus others. Fortunately, the Church does not derive her understanding from individual men. The Church bases its doctrines from the Aposlles teachings and scripture. The Church has an axiom that. If it was not believed from the beginning and held by all everywhere, it is not scriptural.

Earburner · Mar 11, 2025

Davy said:
Well you just made a false assumption about me.

I well understand how Christ's Book of Revelation is written in the style of the Old Testament Books of God's prophets, using many symbols and allegories and analogies. It's those brethren who stay only in The New Testament Books that don't know this.

Thus all you are doing is mocking because you apparently do... believe man's FALSE Amill theories which I was talking about in my post that quoted.

There most certainly IS... a future "thousand years" period of Christ's future reign with His elect over the unsaved nations.

It is well written of by God's Old Testament prophets, and per the Revelation 20 Chapter. And there are SO MANY FALSEHOODS to man's stupid Amill theory that directly disagrees with the written Bible Scripture, that the deceived by that fake Amill theory, like yourself, can't even figure out those simple falsehoods.

There is NO SYMBOL being given in Revelation 20 about the "thousand years" period. We cannot... treat it like Ezekiel 4:6 where God gave Ezekiel a day to represent a year. Some try... to add that concept to many end time Bible prophecies when the Scripture does NOT give that idea. And the Rev.20 Chapter doesn't give that idea either, thus there is NO reason to treat that "thousand years" as being a symbol only. It is meant literally.

Yeah, I know all about the abuse by some of that phrase "shortly come to pass". Preterists love to use that with their theories that most of Revelation is already history when it is not.

I never said, nor do I believe that Rev. is already history.

Let me help you to understand how and why it is that God the Father said those words of Rev. 1:1
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ,
> which God GAVE unto him,
> to SHEW unto his servants
> THINGS which must SHORTLY come to pass; [since Jesus' first appearance] and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
[2] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

First and foremost, Jesus before his death and then AFTER his resurrection, even AFTER his Ascension, to this very day, STILL DOES NOT KNOW THE DAY of WHEN God the Father shall send Jesus in his Glorious return in flaming fire, whereby ALL His Saints shall be glorified in Him in that DAY. KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10.

God the Father has let NO man,....no NOT EVEN His Glorified Son to know, of WHEN the same Son of Glory shall return.

So then, it is now 2025 years past from Jesus' Ascension, and the Lord Jesus has not yet been revealed from Heaven in flaming fire.
Could it be, and most likely is the case, that God the Father IS STILL waiting in His longsuffering, to save as many as He can through faith in Jesus??
I dare say, that is indeed the ONLY answer!!
Mat. 24
[36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Therefore, once God the Father HAS MADE His decision to send Jesus to redeem all His Saints, ALL THINGS that Jesus HAS SHOWN to ALL of His servants, SHALL [then] SHORTLY COME TO PASS.

WPM · Mar 11, 2025

Rightglory said:
There were some Church Fathers who held these views but many were declared heritics for these views, Origin, Turtullian, Lactantius, Barnabas that come to mind, plus others. Fortunately, the Church does not derive her understanding from individual men. The Church bases its doctrines from the Aposlles teachings and scripture. The Church has an axiom that. If it was not believed from the beginning and held by all everywhere, it is not scriptural.

Origin and Barnabas were not Chiliasts.

Rightglory · Mar 12, 2025

WPM said:
Origin and Barnabas were not Chiliasts.

You are correct on Origin. However, Barnabas in his Epistles speaks of an earthly kingdom of Christ.
The historical origins of a view called mellinarianism actually began in Asia Minor with a Gnostic, Cereinthus. He combined teaching of the Ebonites and Gnostic
Living in Asia Minor was Papias who then incorporated it into Christianity. Ireaneaus and Justin Martyr also lived in Asia Minor. It seems the view was primarily held in that area for its duration. By the time of the end of the 4th century the Church began to counter act against the view. There were other attempts in subsequent centuries that individuals wrote about variations of a millennial view but the Church has never held the view.
It was not until Miller in England in mid 19th century and Darby in Ireland, and Scofield in US developed a theories of an earthly reign of Christ. It is from these views that subsequent views were promulgated in the US almost exclusively. From Darby in the US we eventually get to Chafer, Walvoord, Lindsey, and a host of others. They are contained in many Protestant denominations but many do not hold to such views. We could include Joseph Smith in the 1830 wrote his Book of Mormons. calling his followers the Latter Day Saints.
Might add that the founders of Protestantism, Luther and Calvin did not hold millennarian views.

WPM · Mar 12, 2025

Rightglory said:
You are correct on Origin. However, Barnabas in his Epistles speaks of an earthly kingdom of Christ.

Really? OK then: can you present one quote from "Barnabas in his Epistles" where he "speaks of an earthly kingdom of Christ"? I will not hold my breath are you answering this.

WPM · Mar 12, 2025

Rightglory said:
By the time of the end of the 4th century the Church began to counter act against the view. There were other attempts in subsequent centuries that individuals wrote about variations of a millennial view but the Church has never held the view.

This is not correct. Where are you getting your information? Put it on the table if you have it.

Spiritual Israelite · Mar 12, 2025

WPM said:
This is not correct. Where are you getting your information? Put it on the table if you have it.

It's pretty obvious which one of you has put in the effort to get the facts about this topic and which one hasn't. One of you backs up his claims with quotes while citing his sources. The other one does not. It's not hard to see which is which. It's unfortunate that you have put put with that kind of nonsense in these discussions.

WPM · Mar 12, 2025

Spiritual Israelite said:
It's pretty obvious which one of you has put in the effort to get the facts about this topic and which one hasn't. One of you backs up his claims with quotes while citing his sources. The other one does not. It's not hard to see which is which. It's unfortunate that you have put put with that kind of nonsense in these discussions.

This has been my experience on three different forums.

Davy · Apr 6, 2025

Earburner said:
I never said, nor do I believe that Rev. is already history.

Let me help you to understand how and why it is that God the Father said those words of Rev. 1:1
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ,
> which God GAVE unto him,
> to SHEW unto his servants
> THINGS which must SHORTLY come to pass; [since Jesus' first appearance] and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
[2] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

First and foremost, Jesus before his death and then AFTER his resurrection, even AFTER his Ascension, to this very day, STILL DOES NOT KNOW THE DAY of WHEN God the Father shall send Jesus in his Glorious return in flaming fire, whereby ALL His Saints shall be glorified in Him in that DAY. KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10.

God the Father has let NO man,....no NOT EVEN His Glorified Son to know, of WHEN the same Son of Glory shall return.

So then, it is now 2025 years past from Jesus' Ascension, and the Lord Jesus has not yet been revealed from Heaven in flaming fire.
Could it be, and most likely is the case, that God the Father IS STILL waiting in His longsuffering, to save as many as He can through faith in Jesus??
I dare say, that is indeed the ONLY answer!!
Mat. 24
[36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Therefore, once God the Father HAS MADE His decision to send Jesus to redeem all His Saints, ALL THINGS that Jesus HAS SHOWN to ALL of His servants, SHALL [then] SHORTLY COME TO PASS.

And there... it is folks, the PRETERIST APPROACH to interpretation of that Revelation 1 "shortly come to pass" phrase!

Brethren in Christ - What is PRETERISM?
Men's seminary doctrine called Preterism comes from the word 'preter', which means 'what is past'. There is Partial Preterism, and then there is FULL PRETERISM. Both assign many Bible prophecies that have yet to happen as already being past history.

Partial Preterists still believe in a future bodily coming of Lord Jesus. But Full Preterists instead believe Jesus already... returned at His 2nd coming, and that it was back in His Apostles' days, so that version is truly... radical!

BOTH versions of Preterism rely on the fallacies of what Origen of Alexandria did, of the early Christian school in Alexandria, Egypt. And Origen was ex-communicated for it. What he did was create allegories for literal Bible Scriptures when they were not allegory at all. It's what some call 'spiritualizing' the Scriptures.

Origen was learned in Greek philosophy, and that is what it is especially known for, many allegories and spiritualizations, thus never actually coming to the Truth. Apostle Paul said they were too superstitious (Acts 17). Thus Origen's error with his allegorical interpretation of The Bible was to bring in Greek philosophy, and thus Gnosticism into Bible interpretation, something that apparently some here have learned form their beth-avens they've been going to (a 'beth-aven' is Hebrew for a 'house of vanity').

covenantee · Apr 6, 2025

Davy said:
And there... it is folks, the PRETERIST APPROACH to interpretation of that Revelation 1 "shortly come to pass" phrase!

Brethren in Christ - What is PRETERISM?
Men's seminary doctrine called Preterism comes from the word 'preter', which means 'what is past'. There is Partial Preterism, and then there is FULL PRETERISM. Both assign many Bible prophecies that have yet to happen as already being past history.

Partial Preterists still believe in a future bodily coming of Lord Jesus. But Full Preterists instead believe Jesus already... returned at His 2nd coming, and that it was back in His Apostles' days, so that version is truly... radical!

BOTH versions of Preterism rely on the fallacies of what Origen of Alexandria did, of the early Christian school in Alexandria, Egypt. And Origen was ex-communicated for it. What he did was create allegories for literal Bible Scriptures when they were not allegory at all. It's what some call 'spiritualizing' the Scriptures.

Origen was learned in Greek philosophy, and that is what it is especially known for, many allegories and spiritualizations, thus never actually coming to the Truth. Apostle Paul said they were too superstitious (Acts 17). Thus Origen's error with his allegorical interpretation of The Bible was to bring in Greek philosophy, and thus Gnosticism into Bible interpretation, something that apparently some here have learned form their beth-avens they've been going to (a 'beth-aven' is Hebrew for a 'house of vanity').

All of the prophecies about Jesus' first coming were fulfilled by Him more than three decades before 70 AD.

That makes Jesus the greatest partial preterist who ever lived.

Davy · Apr 6, 2025

Oh by the way Brethren in Christ, did you know that the 2nd century A.D. Gnostics believed and taught that Lord Jesus Christ did NOT... die on His cross? The Gnostics believe that Christ's Apostles removed Him from the cross before He could die, and instead that Jesus lived to old age, and even that He married Mary Magdalene and had children! That's what Gnosticism believes about Christ's crucifixion.

That very idea was hinted at in the Gnostic supported movie The Da Vinci Code starring Tom Hanks (I'm sure Tom regrets doing that movie now, since he has become a Christian).

The main theme of the movie (and Gnostic novel it was based on), was that Jesus had children and thus a continuing bloodline. At the end of the movie it was suggested that Jesus' literal offspring were in the world somewhere, and it was wondered if they inherited His supernatural power of miracles. The guy who wrote several novels the movie was based (Dan Brown), supported beliefs of pagan Gnosticism in his books.

Gnosticism was an influence from ancient pagan esoteric philosophy. The first pagan idol religion occurred in ancient Sumer which became Babylon later. That is where the origins of Baal worship began, and was simply transferred to other nations under various names. In ancient Egypt and Greece it involved the creation of 'mystery schools' of initiation. Supposedly, the mystery schools held a secret esoteric knowledge of nature and the universe, and one could only learn their secrets by petitioning for membership, and on probation for a year as a neophyte. Initiate fraternities today still claim heritage from those ancient mystery schools, the Rosicrucian Order and Masonic Lodge especially.

Have you ever heard of a religious sect of ascetics in the holy land called the Essenes? The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) wrote about them, that they existed in a separate community in the desert during the time of John the Baptist. Some researchers even claim that John was a member of the sect, but that hasn't been proven. They lived a very ascetic lifestyle, much like monks in a monastery, according to Josephus. The Dead Sea Scrolls was supposedly of the Essene sect's writings, and ancient pieces of Old Testament manuscripts were found among their writings. What the esoteric initiate occult secret fraternities have done with that, is have a field day with claiming their heritage is also from that sect of the Essenes in the holy land.

In ancient Greece, those secret occult societies of initiation claim another group called the Theraputaeu (? spelling) were another branch of the Essene sect but in ancient Greece. The Essenes were known as healers and kind of like the Salvation Army, standing at the Jerusalem gates to help the sick and the poor.

But what the secret societies do with their claimed heritage of the Essenes, and the ancient Mystery Schools, is they claim they have the 'true' knowledge of Christ, and that THEY... actually are Christ's true ELECT. They even like to use things that Lord Jesus said to His Apostles having actually being meant for those of the secret societies who have been initiated into the Mysteries. And like what the orthodox Jews call us Gentiles in their Talmud writings, that we are like 'cattle', to be lied to, cheated, murdered, and slaughtered like cattle, the heads of those secret societies believe the same things about the uninitiated.

THIS KIND OF THING is what one is dealing with in many of today's Churches that have gone astray. Satan has some of his best workers in some pulpits today. I personally know of pastors that are also high level Masons, which means they are initiated into that esotericism of the ancient Mystery Schools.

I recall the orthodox Jew Adam Weishaupt who in the 18th century created the Bavarian Illuminati, bragged in a personal letter to another member how his Christian Degree had fooled a certain Christian divine (i.e., a leader in the Christian Church). Weishaupt even said he didn't know he would be the founder of a new religion! (see Proofs Of A Conspiracy (1798) by the British Mason John Robison who covered the discovered documents of the 18th century Illuminati Order by the police in Bavaria.) What Robison revealed was that Continental Masonry had been infiltrated by Weishaupt's Illuminati organization which had claimed to possess the actual highest degrees of initiation. Per Robison, British Masonry, from which all other forms of Masonry sprang from, had only 3 Degrees. Weishaupt's Illuminati Order added many Degrees to European Masonry, and that is where things like the Masonic 33rd Degree originates. Weishaupt's members were from Occult groups, those who practiced things like ceremonial magic, and black magic.

The discovered documents of Weishaupt's Illuminati Order stated their goals were to destroy all European government and monarchs, and especially Christianity. When the European monarchs and governments discovered that they banned the Illuminati in Europe. No matter Weishaupt said, they would go ten times deeper in secrecy he said.

Such is the influence that higher Degree Masons receive still to this day in the Masonic Lodges of Freemasonry. And some of these are pastors over the Churches?? Yes, so don't be deceived. You had better be checking out what you are taught directly in God's written Word for yourself, and... learn how to do proper Bible study, and not just opening up your Bible and picking a verse here and there and claiming that verse is for the day, like some casino roulette wheel.

AMILLENNIALISM, A GNOSTIC DOCTRINE

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