MA2444
Well-Known Member
So I'm not sure what your point is. That it wasn't a parable? That doesn't really matter, it is the underlying spiritual truth that is what's important. Right?
14 IRRESOLVABLE CONTRADICTIONS WHICH RESULT FROM A LITERAL RICH MAN AND LAZARUS
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So I'm not sure what your point is. That it wasn't a parable? That doesn't really matter, it is the underlying spiritual truth that is what's important. Right?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
YES, the literal Truth of only two outcomes after death = Salvation or Judgment = is MOST important regardless how one reads this.
YES, the literal Truth of the LORD mentioning our names is MOST IMPORTANT = Revelation 3:5
Therefore, say YES to the DRESS = Revelation 19:8
And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns!
7Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.”
8And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
In my opinion, shared by Jehovah's Witnesses globally, this narrative is a parable.
Moreover, beyond the previously mentioned points that support this interpretation, it is important to consider some additional aspects:
1) Jesus addressed his audience not regarding a doctrine about the afterlife, but to clarify who genuinely enjoys God's approval.
2) His message was directed at the Jewish people, who held specific beliefs, not his followers. The mention of "Abraham" served as a Jewish emblem, symbolizing their unique connection to God through their lineage from the patriarch.
3) The essence of the parable highlighted the arrogance of the Jewish religious leaders in relation to the impoverished members of Israel. The underlying message was the misconception that their material wealth signified divine favor.
Moreover, beyond the previously mentioned points that support this interpretation, it is important to consider some additional aspects:
1) Jesus addressed his audience not regarding a doctrine about the afterlife, but to clarify who genuinely enjoys God's approval.
2) His message was directed at the Jewish people, who held specific beliefs, not his followers. The mention of "Abraham" served as a Jewish emblem, symbolizing their unique connection to God through their lineage from the patriarch.
3) The essence of the parable highlighted the arrogance of the Jewish religious leaders in relation to the impoverished members of Israel. The underlying message was the misconception that their material wealth signified divine favor.
As a JW you have to say this -- the narrative is a parable -- I am not into JW but I agree with you, but for different reasons.
First of all I read in context, the whole chapter 16, verse 1 starts with The Parable of the Dishonest Manager, the parable ends with -
Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.”
Followed by verse 14, the context -
Luk 16:14 The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed him.
We can already see the connection, The Pharisees felt attacked (You cannot serve God and money) and sadly they ridiculed Him. And Jesus ridiculed The Pharisees in return with the parable of Rich Man and Poor Man. Theme money and the false beliefs of the The Pharisees. In the parable the rich man stands for The Pharisees.
The false beliefs of The Pharisees -
1. The Bosom of Abraham - it's nowhere in the OT, during the absence of prophets from God for centuries they made that up, look at the development of that false belief.
2. Secondly the description of Hades comes rightly from pagan Greek mythology, another false belief that entered during the absence of prophets from God for centuries.
And so Jesus ridiculed The Pharisees in return, them ending up in their own false beliefs.
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Hobie
Well-Known Member
Amen, the truth is being unveiled as the Holy Spirit is poured out....
I was looking at this a few ways myself, one of them I will post below
Abraham to the certain rich man
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
But these would not hear them and so he suggests sending Lazarus (who Jesus did raise from the dead) See John 12:10
And Abraham responds,
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Similar to what Jesus said,
John 5:46-47 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
And here we see how they which had the law and the prophets are responding to the one Jesus raised from the dead
John 12:10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death (and also Jesus who was later raised from the dead Mat 28:11-15)
And so as is shown us in Abraham "neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
There is also that which is shown between Lazarus and Abraham as there is with a poor beggar and a prince (of which Abraham was actually reccognized as)
Genesis 23:6 Hear us, my lord (Abraham) thou art a mighty prince among us
In Sam and the Psalm it shows a picture of how God raises up the poor out of the dust and sets the beggar among princes, making them inherit the throne of glory
For example
1 Sam 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.
Similarly we have poor Lazarus in the NT (as such a beggar) and Abraham (who is reccognized as a prince) and ofcourse the angels who are they which carry Lazarus into Abraham's bosom (or in otherwords, to set such among princes)
Even in this respect as well
James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
Abraham to the certain rich man
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
But these would not hear them and so he suggests sending Lazarus (who Jesus did raise from the dead) See John 12:10
And Abraham responds,
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Similar to what Jesus said,
John 5:46-47 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
And here we see how they which had the law and the prophets are responding to the one Jesus raised from the dead
John 12:10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death (and also Jesus who was later raised from the dead Mat 28:11-15)
And so as is shown us in Abraham "neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
There is also that which is shown between Lazarus and Abraham as there is with a poor beggar and a prince (of which Abraham was actually reccognized as)
Genesis 23:6 Hear us, my lord (Abraham) thou art a mighty prince among us
In Sam and the Psalm it shows a picture of how God raises up the poor out of the dust and sets the beggar among princes, making them inherit the throne of glory
For example
1 Sam 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.
Similarly we have poor Lazarus in the NT (as such a beggar) and Abraham (who is reccognized as a prince) and ofcourse the angels who are they which carry Lazarus into Abraham's bosom (or in otherwords, to set such among princes)
Even in this respect as well
James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
The parable ENDS in verse 13 and is clearly differentiated from the literal truth that follows beginning in verse 14.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented.”
7And Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.”
8The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. 9For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
10When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! 11And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.” And his servant was healed that same hour.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Not any more. They used to go to Abrahams Bosom before the Lord came and died on the cross thereby paying the price for all of it and not it has changed, Jesus emtyied out Abrahams Bosom and took them with Him, so now when we die, Absent from the body means present with the Lord!
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Post #190 = AGREE
Before JESUS died on the Cross, the SAVED saints were with Abraham in paradise.
Paradise was/is not Heaven but was a blessed holding place for the souls of the saints until JESUS shed His Blood = New Covenant
AFTER Jesus Resurrection, the physically dead saints then ascended to Heaven where they are now.
There is no mention in Scripture of Abraham being in charge of receiving souls from the dead in an invisible place. What sparked the notion that this mythical location was completely vacated of its treasures to be transported to heaven during Jesus' ascension?
Where did this extra-biblical teaching about an under-terrestrial realm governed by Abraham, where the deceased resided prior to Jesus's resurrection, originate? It resembles the Catholic myth of Peter greeting the deceased at heaven's gates... Could it be that both myths share a common source: perhaps some pagan tradition?
Daniel was not in any "bosom of Abraham," much less did he ascend to heaven when Jesus was resurrected.
Dan. 12:13 But as for you, go on to the end. You will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days.
David was not in heaven when Peter gave this speech (Acts 2:14-36) in the year 33 CE.:
Acts 2:34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says,
‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’ (Psalm 110:1)
Where did this extra-biblical teaching about an under-terrestrial realm governed by Abraham, where the deceased resided prior to Jesus's resurrection, originate? It resembles the Catholic myth of Peter greeting the deceased at heaven's gates... Could it be that both myths share a common source: perhaps some pagan tradition?
Daniel was not in any "bosom of Abraham," much less did he ascend to heaven when Jesus was resurrected.
Dan. 12:13 But as for you, go on to the end. You will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days.
David was not in heaven when Peter gave this speech (Acts 2:14-36) in the year 33 CE.:
Acts 2:34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says,
‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’ (Psalm 110:1)
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
All false religions and cults, such as jw/watchtower speak against the LORD Jesus Christ and His words.
jw/watchtower is just as evil and corrupt as the Vatican is in Rome.
God never established "jehovah witness" but HE did establish His witness and His witnesses.
Those who speak against the LORD Jesus Christ and His words are antichrist and are false witnesses.
GISMYS_7
Well-Known Member
GISMYS_7
Well-Known Member
GISMYS_7
Well-Known Member
It is the Bible that says this:
If such a location were real, wouldn't it make sense to assume that Daniel and David would have been there and subsequently risen to heaven alongside Jesus Christ? However, as the Scriptures indicate, that did not occur. Consequently, this belief lacks biblical support. According to the Scriptures, there has never been a location referred to as the "bosom of Abraham," aside from an illustration provided by Jesus.
If a person chooses not to accept the Bible, there’s little I can do about it. Paul told Timothy:
2 Tim. 4:2 Preach the word; be at it urgently in favorable times and difficult times; reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all patience and art of teaching. 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories. 5 You, though, keep your senses in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry.
So: Daniel was not in any "bosom of Abraham," much less did he ascend to heaven when Jesus was resurrected, AND David was not in heaven when Peter gave that speech (Acts 2:14-36) in the year 33 CE.
If such a location were real, wouldn't it make sense to assume that Daniel and David would have been there and subsequently risen to heaven alongside Jesus Christ? However, as the Scriptures indicate, that did not occur. Consequently, this belief lacks biblical support. According to the Scriptures, there has never been a location referred to as the "bosom of Abraham," aside from an illustration provided by Jesus.
If a person chooses not to accept the Bible, there’s little I can do about it. Paul told Timothy:
2 Tim. 4:2 Preach the word; be at it urgently in favorable times and difficult times; reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all patience and art of teaching. 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories. 5 You, though, keep your senses in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
TRUTH is found in the LORD Jesus Christ who Says: "IAM the Way the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the FATHER but thru ME"
2 Tim. 4:2 Preach the word; be at it urgently in favorable times and difficult times; reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all patience and art of teaching. 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories. 5 You, though, keep your senses in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry.
Whoever opposes the words of the LORD is not walking in faith and it means you are not submitting to wholesome teaching
Wholesome truthful teaching is in Luke chapter 16 as well as the entire Holy Scriptures
A clear example of falsehood/false teaching/false witness is found in NWT John 1:1 - the Word was "a god"
the Lord Says:
‘I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
‘You shall have no other gods before Me.
the Lord Says: "I and MY FATHER are ONE"
the Lord Says: "this is Eternal Life, that they may you know You the only true God and JESUS CHRIST whom you sent"
TRUTH is found in the LORD Jesus Christ who Says: "IAM the Way the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the FATHER but thru ME"
the LORD Says: "unless you believe I am HE, you will die in your sins"
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- Jan 14, 2015
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I fully agree the Rich Man represents the Jews...but Lazarus doesn't represent any Jew, but Gentiles. How?
If you remember that time when Jesus went up North, there was a Syro-Phoenician woman there that begged Him to heal her daughter...and finally, when Jesus said, "It's not meet (appropriate) to take the children's bread and cast it to dogs" the woman replied, "Truth, Lord...yet the DOGS eat of the CRUMBS that fall from their master's TABLE". Both Jesus and the woman knew exactly what she meant. She was saying, "Yes, Lord, I know the Jews are the masters...I know they sit at Your table of blessing, but in their hardness against You, they're allowing Your blessings to fall off the table, and though I'm a Gentile cut off from the blessings of God, I can eat the ones that fall off the table!"
While the Jews were "rich" in the promises, the covenants, the blessings, the lively oracles of God, Lazarus is said to be "outside" the gate, laying "full of sores" with the "dogs" and desiring the "crumbs" which fall from the Rich Man's "table". Yet, Lazarus winds up being "comforted" in Abraham's bosom.
This parable is yet another of several parables of warning to the Jews that if they don't repent, the tables will be turned on them....and that's exactly what happened. When they crucified Jesus and continued to oppose Christianity, finally God raised up Paul to carry the "Gospel to the Gentiles" where the Gentiles recieved all the Promises, the New Covenant, the New Testament, and the COMFORTER aka the Holy Ghost.
Some argue, "It can't be a parable because it contains the proper names "Lazarus" and "Abraham" - however, this argument is based purely in inference, not the evidence of Scripture. There is no Biblical prohibition against doing such. "Abraham" is used to establish the relationship Gentiles now have as "heirs" of Abrahams's promise (Galatians 3:29 KJV) and "Lazarus" is used so that in a short while after when the real Lazarus was raised from the dead and the Jews not only failed to repent, but went away to "take counsel on how they might destroy both Jesus and Lazarus" then the final words of this parable would ring true: "if they believe not Moses and the Prophets (aka Word of God) they will not believe, though one rose from the dead".
What say you, friend?
