Unravelling Revelation

Revelation is a testimony of God's Love, Righteousness, Power, Grace, Judgment, and is a great blessing to them who Believe God, Love God, Trust God... as it provides direction and hope in our lives as He had declared to his servants the prophets that the mystery of God be finished.

Douggg said:

Revelation is a testimony of God's Love, Righteousness, Power, Grace, Judgment, and is a great blessing to them who Believe God, Love God, Trust God... as it provides direction and hope in our lives as He had declared to his servants the prophets that the mystery of God be finished.

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Would I be so bold as to ask, where is your graphic that proves that?

Brakelite said:

Would I be so bold as to ask, where is your graphic that proves that?

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I never claimed a graphic would encompass the fullness of what I wrote.

1Corinthian2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Deborah_ said:

Revelation, written around 60 years after Jesus’ death and resurrection, therefore contains nothing new

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It contains A LOT of new things, not found in any book of the bible.

Deborah_ said:

We tend to forget that the book of Revelation is mainly about Jesus!

Revelation 1

The setting of Revelation could hardly be more discouraging: John, the writer, is exiled on the island of Patmos to stop him from spreading the Gospel. The churches are being persecuted. They are for the most part small, threatened and fearful. They are supposed to be shining the light of Christ into the spiritual darkness that surrounds them; but the darkness is doing its best to extinguish them.

But on the day of resurrection, John worships - and discovers, like Jacob at Bethel (Genesis 28:10-17), that he is actually on heaven’s doorstep, and in the presence of none other than the risen Lord Jesus! But Jesus looks nothing like the carpenter from Nazareth; His glory (briefly glimpsed by John many years earlier on the mountain of the Transfiguration) is so dazzling that John reacts as if in the presence of God.

John’s description of Jesus is. like the descriptions in the rest of the book, symbolic rather than ‘photographic’ (does He really have a sword for a tongue?). There are many allusions to the vision of Daniel (Daniel 7): most strikingly, although Jesus is the Son of Man (Daniel 7:13), He looks exactly like the Ancient of Days (Daniel 7:9)! His voice sounds like the voice of God (Ezekiel 43:2), and the words He speaks are the words of God (Hebrews 4:12). In other words, Jesus is God - and He confirms it by identifying Himself as the First and the Last (see Isaiah 44:6).

Jesus is dressed as a priest (Revelation 1:13); and one of the duties of the priests was to tend the lamps in the Temple. And so John sees Jesus walking amongst the lampstands (which represent the churches). The lampstands don’t maintain their light by their own efforts; it’s Jesus who keeps the oil (the Holy Spirit) topped up and the wicks trimmed. On an earthly level, many churches appear to be weak and struggling; but the spiritual reality is that Christ holds us securely in His hand (John 10:29).

And so this vision should be a powerful encouragement for us. We are not alone; Christ is in our midst, in all His glory and power. And He has conquered Death! “I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and Hades.” (Revelation 1:18) He passed right through death and rose again - to a life that is never-ending. And He holds the door open for those who follow Him.

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Very well organized in thought and I agree.

Deborah_ said:

Numbers, then, have symbolic meaning in Revelation. They shouldn’t be taken literally!

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The numbers should be taken literally. The two witnesses, for example, are two individuals. The 7 vials of God's wrath, there are literally 7 of them, as well as, the 7 angels are literally 7 angels.

That God chooses to work in units of 7 quite often in Revelation is very evident. But it does not mean that the numbers are symbolical, and not literal.

There are only a few instances of numbers in Revelation not being literal but closer to being a figure of speech, such as, the ten king will rule with the beast for one hour, Revelation 17:12.

The calendar units in Revelation, i.e. the days, months, years, are literal. As is the expression time, times, half time. Those are essential for constructing a time line of the events in Revelation that lead up to Jesus's return. Many of the same time expressions are found in other parts of the bible, specifically in Daniel and Ezekiel, described as time of the end in the text.

Here is a table I made of all of the time of the end time frames in the bible.

The unravelling of Revelation - subsequently, requires organizing to understand Revelation.

unravelling + organizing = understanding

The organizing of Revelation includes grouping the like time expressions as being in either the first half or the second half of the 7 years of Daniel 9:27, Ezekiel 39:9.

first half
1260 days
Revelation 11:3 - the two witnesses testify in Jerusalem
Revelation 12:6 - Israel fed the Word of God

second half
3 1/2 days
Revelation 11:9 - the two witnesses' bodies lay dead

42 months
Revelation 11:2 - gentiles trample Jerusalem
Revelation 13:5 - the beast's reign

times, times, half time
Revelation 12:14 - Satan's persecution
Daniel 7:25 - little horn changes times and laws
Daniel 12:7 - Daniel's people under duress

Douggg said:

The numbers should be taken literally. The two witnesses, for example, are two individuals. The 7 vials of God's wrath, there are literally 7 of them, as well as, the 7 angels are literally 7 angels.

That God chooses to work in units of 7 quite often in Revelation is very evident. But it does not mean that the numbers are symbolical, and not literal.

There are only a few instances of numbers in Revelation not being literal but closer to being a figure of speech, such as, the ten king will rule with the beast for one hour, Revelation 17:12.

The calendar units in Revelation, i.e. the days, months, years, are literal. As is the expression time, times, half time. Those are essential for constructing a time line of the events in Revelation that lead up to Jesus's return. Many of the same time expressions are found in other parts of the bible, specifically in Daniel and Ezekiel, described as time of the end in the text.

Here is a table I made of all of the time of the end time frames in the bible.


View attachment 58548

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Numbers are literal except in Prophesy, where numbers are representative, for instance, in Revelation, 7 churches. When John wrote Revelation, there were more than seven churches.

Establishing everything in the presence of at least two witnesses was the custom of the day. The Father also has two witnesses; the Son and the Spirit. On the Mt of Transfiguration there was Moses and Elijah. There are the scriptures; the Old and New Testaments and so on. The designation of the two witnesses in Revelation.....they are not two literal individuals, the context tells us this. So what is it referencing?
Deborah_ is onto the intent of Revelation. From the outset, John tells us it is a revelation of Jesus Christ. Rev.1:1 Don't miss this introduction and its significance as if it were never stated.

Rockerduck said:

Numbers are literal except in Prophesy, where numbers are representative, for instance, in Revelation, 7 churches. When John wrote Revelation, there were more than seven churches.

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It was not the number that was representative of different sorts of believers, but content of the messages to each of the seven church's.

For example, the content of the message to the church in Philidephia seems to be representative of believers who will escape "the hour of temptation" i.e. by being raptured before the great tribulation begins. "hour" in that particular case is referring to the time of the great tribulation - but not literally one hour - but a compressed limited length of time.

Brakelite said:

Would I be so bold as to ask, where is your graphic that proves that?

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lol

Like 99 percent of the bible,revelation is mainly about the promised land and it's occupants.The Israelites from all nations gathered there and their neighbors.Antichrist Jews and unbelieving Muslims about to be wiped off the face of the earth and a small remnant of christians who are to inherit that land as an everlasting possession.A few more years and this conflict over the Lords land will be settled for good.

I would unravel Revelation as...

Chapter 1 - introduction

Chapters 2-3 - messages to the seven church's in Asia Minor

Chapter 4 - a presentation of the throne room of God in heaven

Chapter 5 - Jesus deemed worthy to open the time of the end book

Chapter 6 - the seven seals covering the 7 years of the time of the end

Chapter 7 - preparation for the time of the end great tribulation and them who's souls have gone to heaven coming out of the great tribulation.

Chapters 8 -19 time of the end events, ending with Jesus's return.

Chapter 20 the millennium reign of Jesus on earth, the final rebellion, the Great White Throne judgment.

Chapter 21-22 life in eternity, conclusion to Revelation.


unraveling though by itself does not equal understanding Revelation.

unraveling + organizing = understanding

Deborah_ said:

Revelation, written around 60 years after Jesus’ death and resurrection,....

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Deb: How do you know for sure that the last Book in the NT was written 60+ years after the resurrection of Christ? Are you confident that John, commissioned to preach the news was able in his 90s, let alone put pen to paper?

Jerome the compiler of the 'first' Bible into Latin, said that John was seen in 96 AD and that he was so old and infirm that “he was with difficulty carried to the church, and could speak only a few words to the people.” Does that sound like a person who could have written his Book in this physical and mental state. In Revelation 10:11, it says that John must “prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings.”

Deborah_ said:

Revelation 2 & 3

Before the start of the revelation itself, John is given seven “personal messages” for seven of the churches in Asia Minor. They are a very mixed bag: some are large and thriving, others small and struggling. Some are faithful; others are compromising with the world around them. Some are complacent; others are being fiercely persecuted. But Jesus assures them that He knows them all intimately. He knows their strengths and their weaknesses; He gives credit where credit is due, but pulls no punches where He sees sin being tolerated. And to each church He has a message of encouragement for the faithful: after the struggles and sufferings of this life, they will participate in the blessings of the age to come.

Many people like to see these seven churches as representing different stages of church history. But churches have been as varied as this in every age - including our own. Any one of them could be our church! And so these ‘letters’ are for us, too; we should pay attention to Christ’s warnings, and take encouragement from His promises.

Each letter follows the same pattern. They begin by introducing their Author, using elements from John’s vision of Jesus in chapter 1. Jesus reminds each church that He knows exactly what is going on there; then He lists their good and bad features. There are many historical references - not to church history, but to the history of Israel! For God’s people face the same challenges and make the same mistakes under both old and new covenants. The love of the Ephesians has grown cold, just as Israel’s did. And Balaam and Jezebel (who attempted to lead Israel astray in the distant past) have their counterparts in the first century, and also in modern times.

Having diagnosed the problems facing each church, Jesus prescribes His treatment - which in most cases is repentance. But He calls on the faithful to persevere. And to encourage them, He tells them of the wonderful things that He has in store for “the one who is victorious.” Many of these (such as the tree of life, the white robes, the book of life and the new Jerusalem) are mentioned again in the final chapters of Revelation.

So these introductory chapters are like an overview of the whole book. The church is in the midst of an evil world, struggling against false teaching and persecution; but Christ is watching over us. We need encouragement to remain faithful right to the bitter end - and Revelation provides that in spades!

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I totally agree. For what it is worth, here is a copy of the introduction to chapters 2 and 3 in Revelation in my commentary:


In each of the seven churches, the way Jesus defines Himself is intricately tied to the nature and severity of their spiritual condition, demonstrating His intimate understanding of their needs. For churches with severe issues, His descriptions are weighty, emphasizing His authority, judgment, and omniscience. For example, to Thyatira, struggling with deep moral corruption and false teachings, Jesus identifies Himself as the "Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire and feet like fine brass" (Revelation 2:18), symbolizing His piercing insight and unwavering judgment. Similarly, to Laodicea, marked by self-sufficiency and spiritual lukewarmness, He reveals Himself as "the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God" (Revelation 3:14), highlighting His reliability, sovereignty, and sufficiency—qualities they lacked.

On the other hand, for churches without rebuke, such as Smyrna and Philadelphia, Jesus offers descriptions that emphasize comfort, encouragement, and reassurance. To Smyrna, a persecuted church, He introduces Himself as the one "who was dead and came to life" (Revelation 2:8), reminding them of His victory over death and the promise of eternal life. To Philadelphia, known for its faithfulness, He declares Himself as "He who is holy, He who is true, He who has the key of David" (Revelation 3:7), underscoring His authority to open doors of opportunity and His faithfulness to reward their perseverance.

This tailored approach showcases Jesus’ deep care and precision in addressing each church. The strength, depth, and weight of His self-identifications align with the severity or commendable qualities of each church, ensuring that His message resonates with their specific situation. These introductions set the tone for His commendations, rebukes, or encouragements, illustrating His role as the just, merciful, and sovereign overseer of His church.

God’s method of teaching often involves taking a unified concept and breaking it into distinct parts to reveal greater depth and understanding. This approach allows us to see the richness and complexity of His plan while keeping the focus on His ultimate unity and sovereignty. For example, God is one, yet He reveals Himself in three distinct ways: as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is not three gods, but one God, manifesting Himself in unique ways to fulfill His divine purpose. Similarly, the seven churches of Revelation, with their individual commendations and rebukes, represent different facets of the one universal church established by Jesus. Each church highlights specific strengths and weaknesses, teaching us how God’s people respond to His Word across time, yet they all belong to His singular body. In the book of Daniel, the one metal man image reflects the unity of God’s plan for His people, but it is divided into four distinct kingdoms, each with its own characteristics, challenges, and divine purpose. These four kingdoms show how God’s people would journey through history, each era presenting unique opportunities for God’s revelation and His people's growth. This method of instruction, seen throughout Scripture, demonstrates God’s profound wisdom and His commitment to ensuring that His people grasp the full spectrum of His redemptive plan.

By dividing and revealing, He gives us the opportunity to reflect, understand, and grow in our faith, while always pointing us back to the unity of His purpose and His eternal sovereignty.

The sequential order of the seven churches in Revelation perfectly mirrors the spiritual and historical development of the church through time. If one were to rearrange this order, the attributes and characteristics of the churches would fail to correspond to their appropriate periods in history. For example, if Pergamum, the third church, which represents the church during the time of Constantine’s reign and the subsequent compromise with pagan practices, were moved before Smyrna, it would not align with the severe persecution experienced by the early church under Roman rule. Smyrna’s commendation for enduring tribulation and poverty fits the historical church from approximately 100–300 AD, a time marked by intense martyrdom and steadfast faith, which would not apply to the era of political power and compromise symbolized by Pergamum.

Similarly, if Laodicea, the seventh church, known for its lukewarmness and materialism, were placed earlier, say in the position of Ephesus, it would not reflect the zealous yet struggling first-century church that had begun to lose its first love. Laodicea’s self-reliance and spiritual complacency more accurately depict the modern church in an age of comfort and wealth, making it incompatible with the fervent missionary spirit and doctrinal purity of the apostolic era. These examples highlight how the divinely inspired order of the churches serves as a precise blueprint of church history, underscoring that the progression is intentional and deeply reflective of the church’s spiritual journey through time.

A third example illustrating the significance of the order of the seven churches can be seen by attempting to place Sardis, the fifth church, in the position of Thyatira, the fourth church. Sardis is characterized by spiritual deadness, having a reputation for being alive but lacking genuine life (Revelation 3:1). This perfectly aligns with the period of the Reformation, approximately 1500–1700 AD, when the church, though breaking free from many corruptions, often struggled with a lack of true spiritual vitality and renewal. If Sardis were placed before Thyatira, which represents the church era (approximately 600–1500 AD) dominated by the rise of papal authority, idolatry, and false doctrines, it would create a chronological and spiritual inconsistency. Thyatira’s rebuke for tolerating Jezebel and her corrupt teachings clearly fits the period when the church deviated significantly from biblical truths under the influence of institutionalized corruption. Moving Sardis earlier would strip the message of its historical resonance and miss the opportunity to highlight the critical need for spiritual reform and revival following the darkness of Thyatira’s time. This further emphasizes the necessity and intentionality of the precise order of the seven churches as a prophetic reflection of church history.