Hypostatic Dilemma - Do you have one?

Ronald Nolette · Feb 7, 2025

TheHC said:
However, other translations, even some which support the trinity, render that phrase:
▪ 1808: "and the Word was a god" – Thomas Belsham The New Testament, in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London.

▪ 1822: "and the Word was a god" – The New Testament in Greek and English (A. Kneeland, 1822.)

▪ 1829: "and the Word was a god" – The Monotessaron; or, The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists (J. S. Thompson, 1829)

▪ 1863: "and the Word was a god" – A Literal Translation of the New Testament (Herman Heinfetter [Pseudonym of Frederick Parker], 1863)

▪ 1864: "and a god was the Word" – The Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London (left hand column interlinear reading)

▪ 1867: "In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God" – The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible

▪ 1879: "and the Word was a god" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (J. Becker, 1979)

▪ 1885: "and the Word was a god" – Concise Commentary on The Holy Bible (R. Young, 1885)

▪ 1911: "and the Word was a god" – The Coptic Version of the N.T. (G. W. Horner, 1911)

▪ 1935: "and the Word was divine" – The Bible: An American Translation, by John M. P. Smith and Edgar J. Goodspeed, Chicago

▪ 1955: "so the Word was divine" – The Authentic New Testament, by Hugh J. Schonfield, Aberdeen.

If a verse can grammatically be translated two different ways, which one is the right one?

Why didn't you add the New Word Translation? Are you ashamed of that? Adding the "a" is not necessary do to construct. and if you go down the "anarthrous noun" path, every noun that does not have a definite article is an anrthrous noun and only some need to have the indefinite articles "a or an". added.

TheHC said:
John 1:18 says: “No one has ever seen God.” John 1:14 clearly says that “the Word became flesh and dwelt among us . . . we have beheld his glory.” Also, vss.1 &2 say that in the beginning he was “with God.” Can one be with someone and at the same time be that person?

You should read other verses that sahow you Jesus is as divine as His Father.

As for John 1:18- that is true! Up to that point no one had seen God face to face.

John 14:8-10

King James Version

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Hebrews 1:3

King James Version

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Also Jesus is called Yahweh with His Father!

TheHC said:
What the Jews thought or said?

But they also called God, their Father. (John 8:41) What does that make them? Equal to God? They were hypocrites. Their reasoning was twisted.

No! That was John commenting on what Jesus said. He was not quoting the pharisees.

Also Jesus was in existence from eternity. He became flesh as the only son of God who God inseminated a woman with.

John 5:18

King James Version

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

TheHC said:
So how did Jesus mean this? In praying to his Father, Jesus said @ John 17:20-22…”I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.”

I see you use the NWT which blatantly and intentionally misquotes Jesus here. union is a total incorrect translation of "heis" as union. It is the number one aqnd nothing else. NOwhere in any Greek grammar will you see "heis" translated as union. If Jesus meant union, He would have used the word "enosi". He is smart enough to know the grammar He created.

TheHC said:
This says (KJV)….
“He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”

Who ‘gives’ this to Jesus? His God.

Reminds me of Matthew 28:18, where Jesus said, “All authority has been given me in heaven and on earth”

Why was this given to him? If Jesus was God, wouldn’t he have already had it?

So now you are demanding of God? No one ever said they are equal in authority or even position.

The Father is above teh Son who is above teh Spirit.

They are all equally divine though they have differing levels of authority. sorry if you do not like that.

TheHC · Feb 8, 2025

Ronald Nolette said:
Why didn't you add the New Word Translation? Are you ashamed of that?

No.
I was just showing that I didn’t have to. And BTW, most of these translations were published before the modern JW organization started.

Ronald Nolette said:
I see you use the NWT which blatantly and intentionally misquotes Jesus here. union is a total incorrect translation of "heis" as union. It is the number one aqnd nothing else.

It doesn’t translate “hen” as union. Don’t you see that?

Ronald Nolette said:
NOwhere in any Greek grammar will you see "heis" translated as union. If Jesus meant union, He would have used the word "enosi".

How are “all” of Jesus’ disciples “one”, “just as” Jesus & his Father are “one”?

Ronald Nolette said:
Adding the "a" is not necessary do to construct. and if you go down the "anarthrous noun" path, every noun that does not have a definite article is an anrthrous noun and only some need to have the indefinite articles "a or an". added.

That’s not the only issue here, my cousin…. It’s also an anarthrous predicate coming before the subject.

Ronald Nolette said:
As for John 1:18- that is true! Up to that point no one had seen God face to face

Where’s “up to that point” in either John 1:18 or 1 John 4:12?
And it’s not “had” as in past tense. It’s “has”, as in present tense.

Ronald Nolette said:
No one ever said they are equal in authority or even position.

The Father is above teh Son who is above teh Spirit.

They are all equally divine though they have differing levels of authority.

Huh?
This is actually heresy against the official trinitarian doctrine.

Yes, I agree Jesus is in subjection to his Father, ie., God.

But since you believe this (as if God exists in layers of position and authority), any further endeavor on my part to reason with you, would be futile I think.

Take care.

Rich R · Feb 8, 2025

TheHC said:
No.
I was just showing that I didn’t have to. And BTW, most of these translations were published before the modern JW organization started.

It doesn’t translate “hen” as union. Don’t you see that?

How are “all” of Jesus’ disciples “one”, “just as” Jesus & his Father are “one”?

That’s not the only issue here, my cousin…. It’s also an anarthrous predicate coming before the subject.

Where’s “up to that point” in either John 1:18 or 1 John 4:12?
And it’s not “had” as in past tense. It’s “has”, as in present tense.

Huh?
This is actually heresy against the official trinitarian doctrine.

Yes, I agree Jesus is in subjection to his Father, ie., God.

But since you believe this (as if God exists in layers of position and authority), any further endeavor on my part to reason with you, would be futile I think.

Take care.

If only people stop substituting "Jesus" for "word" in John 1:1 and learn what "logos" actually means, there would be less confusion. The Bible would actually make sense. But, 2,000 years of tradition is a tough nut to crack. Nonetheless, every day more and more Christians are starting to believe Jesus is the son of God.

Hey You! · Feb 8, 2025

Consubstantial ~ by ReverendRV * Februray 23

John 1:1-2 KJV; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

The Apostle John starts off his Gospel with a description of what God is like. John says that the Word (‘Logos’ in Greek) has been God since the beginning, and has been with God from the beginning; both the same yet distinct. You ask, “Can you explain how God can be both distinct and be ‘One’ at the same Time?” The Church teaches that God is Consubstantial which means ‘of the same substance’. Biblically speaking; because one thing has its source from another thing and is of the same substance as the other, they are the same thing. If this is hard to conceive, there are other examples of Consubstantiation in the Bible which might help us to understand. If Consubstantiation is true, God can be Three and One…

The Prophet Daniel describes the Kingdom of God as being one Kingdom, yet it is also two. Daniel was explaining King Nebuchadnezzar’s dream to him; it was about the kingdom of Man and the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of Man is a statue and the Kingdom of God is a mountain. “The head of the statue was made of fine gold. Its chest and arms were silver, its belly and thighs were bronze, its legs were iron, and its feet were a mixture of iron and baked clay. As you watched, a rock was cut from a mountain, but not by human hands. It struck the feet of iron and clay, smashing them to bits. The whole statue was crushed into small pieces of iron, clay, bronze, silver, and gold. Then the wind blew them away without a trace, like chaff on a threshing floor. But the rock that tore the statue down became a great mountain that covered the whole earth.” There was one mountain but then there were two. The two mountains are the same mountain because the second mountain came from the first mountain since it is the stone from the first mountain. ~ God made Eve from the rib of Adam. Since the second mountain is Consubstantial with the first mountain, Eve was Consubstantial with Adam; God has the right to make two vessels from the same lump of clay, right? The Bible says that “God Created Man; male and female he Created them”. One Mankind consisting of two persons. The brotherhood of Man is Consubstantial…

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. The Word became flesh and dwelt amongst men. This person is Jesus Christ! He came into the world to save us from our Sins. If you have ever told a Lie or Stolen anything, if you have ever Hated anyone or Lusted after someone; then you have broken the Ten Commandments. According to Jesus, Hatred is Murder and lust is Adultery. God judges Sinners and finds them guilty, then sentences them to an eternal Hell; we are Condemned already. But the good news is that Jesus lived a life in which he never Sinned. God his Father passed judgment on Jesus and said that he was well pleased with him! Jesus will trade the good judgment he received from God his Father to you, for the guilty sentence you have received from God. He makes this trade when you trust him as your Lord God and Savior; he never turns anyone away! ~ Jesus said that he had power to lay down his own life and he had power to pick it up again. The reason he has that power is because he is God and was with God from the beginning. There are some so-called churches who do not teach the Triune Nature of God; one Consubstantial God revealed to us in the Bible as God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Those churches don’t believe that Jesus is God, but the Apostle John tells us that Jesus rose from the dead and is God. Repent of your Sins, Confess that Jesus is your God; then find a Bible believing Church and become his disciple…

Matthew 17:5 GNT; While he was talking, a shining cloud came over them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my own dear Son, with whom I am pleased--listen to him!"

Rich R · Feb 8, 2025

Hey You! said:
Consubstantial ~ by ReverendRV * Februray 23

John 1:1-2 KJV; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

The Apostle John starts off his Gospel with a description of what God is like. John says that the Word (‘Logos’ in Greek) has been God since the beginning, and has been with God from the beginning; both the same yet distinct. You ask, “Can you explain how God can be both distinct and be ‘One’ at the same Time?” The Church teaches that God is Consubstantial which means ‘of the same substance’. Biblically speaking; because one thing has its source from another thing and is of the same substance as the other, they are the same thing. If this is hard to conceive, there are other examples of Consubstantiation in the Bible which might help us to understand. If Consubstantiation is true, God can be Three and One…

The Prophet Daniel describes the Kingdom of God as being one Kingdom, yet it is also two. Daniel was explaining King Nebuchadnezzar’s dream to him; it was about the kingdom of Man and the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of Man is a statue and the Kingdom of God is a mountain. “The head of the statue was made of fine gold. Its chest and arms were silver, its belly and thighs were bronze, its legs were iron, and its feet were a mixture of iron and baked clay. As you watched, a rock was cut from a mountain, but not by human hands. It struck the feet of iron and clay, smashing them to bits. The whole statue was crushed into small pieces of iron, clay, bronze, silver, and gold. Then the wind blew them away without a trace, like chaff on a threshing floor. But the rock that tore the statue down became a great mountain that covered the whole earth.” There was one mountain but then there were two. The two mountains are the same mountain because the second mountain came from the first mountain since it is the stone from the first mountain. ~ God made Eve from the rib of Adam. Since the second mountain is Consubstantial with the first mountain, Eve was Consubstantial with Adam; God has the right to make two vessels from the same lump of clay, right? The Bible says that “God Created Man; male and female he Created them”. One Mankind consisting of two persons. The brotherhood of Man is Consubstantial…

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. The Word became flesh and dwelt amongst men. This person is Jesus Christ! He came into the world to save us from our Sins. If you have ever told a Lie or Stolen anything, if you have ever Hated anyone or Lusted after someone; then you have broken the Ten Commandments. According to Jesus, Hatred is Murder and lust is Adultery. God judges Sinners and finds them guilty, then sentences them to an eternal Hell; we are Condemned already. But the good news is that Jesus lived a life in which he never Sinned. God his Father passed judgment on Jesus and said that he was well pleased with him! Jesus will trade the good judgment he received from God his Father to you, for the guilty sentence you have received from God. He makes this trade when you trust him as your Lord God and Savior; he never turns anyone away! ~ Jesus said that he had power to lay down his own life and he had power to pick it up again. The reason he has that power is because he is God and was with God from the beginning. There are some so-called churches who do not teach the Triune Nature of God; one Consubstantial God revealed to us in the Bible as God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Those churches don’t believe that Jesus is God, but the Apostle John tells us that Jesus rose from the dead and is God. Repent of your Sins, Confess that Jesus is your God; then find a Bible believing Church and become his disciple…

Matthew 17:5 GNT; While he was talking, a shining cloud came over them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my own dear Son, with whom I am pleased--listen to him!"

There is not a chance that the Jews (the ones to whom God actually spoke) of the 1st century would have thought the "word" in John 1:1 was "Jesus." The word "logos" has a rich history. It really can't be boiled down to a single English word. Essentially, in the 1st century the word "logos" referred to someone speaking what was on their mind, a plan if you will. John 1:1 is talking about God's plan which was indeed with Him from the beginning. Verse 14 simply says that His plan came to fruition in the man Jesus Christ.

God knew that the first Adam might fall, so He had in mind that He'd create a second Adam who might accomplish what the first Adam didn't. The first Adam rebelled whereas the second Adam always did his Father's will. That included the horror of voluntarily submitting to torture and crucifixion. Jesus had a choice. Three times he asked God if there was another way. Jesus, as would be expected of any man, wasn't very keen on the plan. It was on his mind that he could call for angels to deliver him from the whole mess. Nonetheless, he said, "not my will, but thine be done." That he voluntarily laid down his life is the epitome of love and our example.

What's so bad about Jesus being the son of God anyway? That's what the Bible calls him.

Ronald Nolette · Feb 8, 2025

TheHC said:
No.
I was just showing that I didn’t have to. And BTW, most of these translations were published before the modern JW organization started.

And they were just as wrong. If Jesus is just a god and not God with His Father, then He is a false god. Scripture declares there is only one true god and all others are false.

TheHC said:
It doesn’t translate “hen” as union. Don’t you see that?

Maybe you should reread the NWT, for it does.

20  “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21  so that they may all be one,f just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you."

John 17:21
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

No place for the word union here from the original Greek! they added to teh Scriptures something that is not there.

TheHC said:
How are “all” of Jesus’ disciples “one”, “just as” Jesus & his Father are “one”?

How are a husbande and wife one flesh? They just are whether you or I can understand it or not.

TheHC said:
That’s not the only issue here, my cousin…. It’s also an anarthrous predicate coming before the subject.

Predicate
In John 1:1, the second word "god" is a predicate1 2 3 4 5. It is not preceded by the definite article and points to a quality about someone 3.

See the first occurrence of God points to a person, but the second occurrence points to a quality of the subject (Word).

Jesus is not the god (person) but God in nature. He is not angelic or human He is divine just as His Father.

TheHC said:
Where’s “up to that point” in either John 1:18 or 1 John 4:12?
And it’s not “had” as in past tense. It’s “has”, as in present tense.

Nope but try again. but even if it was present (which it is not) it is still true. Up to that point since after the fall of Adam and Eve, no man has seen God- but that does not exclude the future.

TheHC said:
Huh?
This is actually heresy against the official trinitarian doctrine.

Yes, I agree Jesus is in subjection to his Father, ie., God.

But since you believe this (as if God exists in layers of position and authority), any further endeavor on my part to reason with you, would be futile I think.

Well I care not what "official"statement says, but what Scripture says.

Well in you rlast statement you mean god the Father, I would agree with you.

but as the Son is equally divine in nature as HIS fATHER AND THE SPIRIT IS EQUALLY DIVINE AS TEH FATHER AND SON- YES THE THREE WHO MAKE UP THE ONE GOD CAN EXIST IN DIFFERENT LAYERS OF POSITION AND AUTHORITY.

Lambano · Feb 9, 2025

TheHC said:
Yet in their own Scripture, Proverbs 8:22-24 states….”Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From ancient times I was installed, From the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24 When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth,…”

(This is speaking of Jesus; he is called by Paul, “the wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24)”. So Jesus was “brought forth”; he had a beginning, an origin.)

Vss.30,31 continues….”Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time; 31 I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men.”

I would note here that Philo of Alexandria (a Jewish philosopher roughly contemporary with the NT events) made the connection between the Wisdom of God in Proverbs 8:22-31 and the "Logos" of Greek philosophy. The Apostle John may (or may not) also be making the same connection in his Prologue.

Rich R · Feb 9, 2025

Lambano said:
I would note here that Philo of Alexandria (a Jewish philosopher roughly contemporary with the NT events) made the connection between the Wisdom of God in Proverbs 8:22-31 and the "Logos" of Greek philosophy. The Apostle John may (or may not) also be making the same connection in his Prologue.

NO! John did not rely on Greek philosophy for truth! John's gospel, particularly the first chapter, is a brilliant polemic against Greek philosophy.

It was because Philo and others "harmonized" Greek philosophy with the scriptures that the trinity was born. There were plenty of trinities in Greek religion, but it was decidedly absent in the scriptures.

Lambano · Feb 11, 2025

Rich R said:
NO! John did not rely on Greek philosophy for truth! John's gospel, particularly the first chapter, is a brilliant polemic against Greek philosophy.

It was because Philo and others "harmonized" Greek philosophy with the scriptures that the trinity was born. There were plenty of trinities in Greek religion, but it was decidedly absent in the scriptures.

A brilliant polemic against Docetism, maybe. The Chochmah of Proverbs 8:22-31 is remarkably similar to the concept of Logos. If John's target audience was Greek, John 1:14 (And the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us) becomes a subtle dig at those same Docetists John was dealing with in 1 John 4:3. Every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not from God; this is from the Antichrist.

But historically, John's prologue has been one of the biggest prooftexts and forces behind DEVELOPING the Christian concept of Trinity.

Wrangler · Feb 11, 2025

Ronald Nolette said:
Jesus here. union is a total incorrect translation of "heis" as union. It is the number one aqnd nothing else.

The difference between a sometimes hard to understand literal translation and a thought translation. That you take this verse to be literal expression contradicting the singular nature of God express many times is absurd because you are taking figurative and vague expressions (that have non-trinitarian interpretations) over literal and explicit statements. To say you are one with another being is an expression used today to mean united in purpose (on the same page).

I am Yahweh your God,
and there is no other
Joel 2:27

Rich R · Feb 11, 2025

Lambano said:
A brilliant polemic against Docetism, maybe. The Chochmah of Proverbs 8:22-31 is remarkably similar to the concept of Logos. If John's target audience was Greek, John 1:14 (And the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us) becomes a subtle dig at those same Docetists John was dealing with in 1 John 4:3. Every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not from God; this is from the Antichrist.

But historically, John's prologue has been one of the biggest prooftexts and forces behind DEVELOPING the Christian concept of Trinity.

You are absolutely correct in saying that John prologue became one of the biggest proof texts behind the trinity. They did so by changing "logos" to "Jesus." But there was no reason to do that. It was done to make John 1:1 a proof text for the extra-Biblical trinity. When the logos is understood as the thought behind spoken words, which is what those of the time and place would have understood it to be, then all John is saying is that God had a plan and it came into fruition in the man Jesus Christ. That fits perfectly with John's conclusion:

John 20:30-31,

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The "Son of God" is a far cry from "God the Son."

1 John 4:3 says Jesus came in the flesh. That is true and it agrees with John 1:14. What it does not say is that God came in the flesh. God chose His words very carefully. We should read them with the same level of care.

Wrangler · Feb 11, 2025

Rich R said:
John prologue became one of the biggest proof texts behind the trinity. They did so by changing "logos" to "Jesus."

Making it no proof text at all.

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Hypostatic Dilemma - Do you have one?

Ronald Nolette

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John 14:8-10

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Hebrews 1:3

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John 5:18

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TheHC

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Rich R

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Hey You!

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Hypostatic Dilemma - Do you have one?

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John 14:8-10

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