Understanding the The 1000 Year Millennium in Prophecy

ewq1938 said:

All the saved took part in the first resurrection. Those of the second resurrection are called the DEAD even though they had been resurrected meaning they are the unsaved dead, still dead though risen from the dead...ie: spiritually dead. No one who is in the book of life are being judged there.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

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I think you are adding a lot to that verse. It doesn't say "unsaved" dead, nor does it say "spiritually" dead. Also, if the book of life has nothing to do with this resurrection, why is it mentioned? There must be some reason.

The way I see it written is that dead people were resurrected from the dead and judged. The ones not found in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire. That sure seems to to me be the simple meaning of the words as written.

Hobie said:

No my friend, Moses knew what would happen as God was clear..

Exodus 32:31-33
31 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

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Exodus and Revelation are completely different contexts.

But if you are right, then we all get tossed into the lake of fire, given that we've all sinned.

Rich R said:

I think you are adding a lot to that verse. It doesn't say "unsaved" dead, nor does it say "spiritually" dead.

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It doesn't have any English words in the original. After a resurrection, if one is still called dead they are the unsaved spiritually dead.

Rich R said:

Also, if the book of life has nothing to do with this resurrection, why is it mentioned? There must be some reason.

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It is likely opened at any judgment. In scripture there are only two endtimes mass resurrections of the dead. The first is called the resurrection of life and there are NO unsaved there. In the second, the resurrection of damnation there are NO saved there. The two groups are judged separately.

Rich R said:

The way I see it written is that dead people were resurrected from the dead and judged. The ones not found in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire. That sure seems to to me be the simple meaning of the words as written.

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That ignores the many examples of the dead being judged separately based on being saved or not and it ignores that the group you speak of are called dead even after they were resurrected. That can only mean one thing about them, all of them.

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life ; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

First group resurrection: "resurrection of life"
Second group resurrection: "the resurrection of damnation"

There is no mixed group of both.

ewq1938 said:

It doesn't have any English words in the original. After a resurrection, if one is still called dead they are the unsaved spiritually dead.





It is likely opened at any judgment. In scripture there are only two endtimes mass resurrections of the dead. The first is called the resurrection of life and there are NO unsaved there. In the second, the resurrection of damnation there are NO saved there. The two groups are judged separately.






That ignores the many examples of the dead being judged separately based on being saved or not and it ignores that the group you speak of are called dead even after they were resurrected. That can only mean one thing about them, all of them.

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life ; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

First group resurrection: "resurrection of life"
Second group resurrection: "the resurrection of damnation"

There is no mixed group of both.

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Rev 20:4,

This group would not include Abraham, Moses, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, or any other person who lived before the appearance of the beast which first appears in Revelation 13. So they are not included in this resurrection. They are instead included in the, "rest of the dead" from Revelation 20:5, the ones who would not be resurrected until the 1,000 years were finished. In other words, they would be part of the second resurrection. So all those guys get thrown into the lake of fire? I'm thinking there names are written in the book of life that is opened in that second resurrection, which means they will not get thrown into that lake.

Rich R said:

Rev 20:4,

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.​

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This group would not include Abraham, Moses, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, or any other person who lived before the appearance of the beast which first appears in Revelation 13.

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True.

Rich R said:

So they are not included in this resurrection.

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False.

There are not two stages of the first resurrection ie: those who shall rise first. All the dead in Christ will rise at the same exact time. Revelation 20 simply focuses on one group like if there were a million people in a dark room and you shined a flashlight at a group of around a thousand. The others are still there. The light just isn't being shown at them at that time.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

All the dead in Christ will resurrect at the same time. Revelation 20 is only shining a light on one specific group but everyone is actually resurrecting at the same time the beheaded saints are.

Rich R said:

They are instead included in the, "rest of the dead" from Revelation 20:5

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I have already explained how that is impossible. No saved dead is still referred to as dead after being resurrected.

Rich R said:

, the ones who would not be resurrected until the 1,000 years were finished. In other words, they would be part of the second resurrection. So all those guys get thrown into the lake of fire? I'm thinking there names are written in the book of life that is opened in that second resurrection, which means they will not get thrown into that lake.

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That already happened at the first resurrection when all the dead in Christ did "rise first".

The dead in Christ "rise first" is linguistically related to the "first resurrection". Both are speaking of the same event.


first/G4413 resurrection/G386 is "protos anastasis"
Rise/G450 first/G4412 is "anistemi proton"

Proton and protos are related words that both mean "first". Proton is the neuter of the word protos. They are synonyms and are directly related words.

Anastasis was created from it's root word, anistemi. They are synonyms and are directly related words.

ewq1938 said:

True.




False.

There are not two stages of the first resurrection ie: those who shall rise first. All the dead in Christ will rise at the same exact time. Revelation 20 simply focuses on one group like if there were a million people in a dark room and you shined a flashlight at a group of around a thousand. The others are still there. The light just isn't being shown at them at that time.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

All the dead in Christ will resurrect at the same time. Revelation 20 is only shining a light on one specific group but everyone is actually resurrecting at the same time the beheaded saints are.








I have already explained how that is impossible. No saved dead is still referred to as dead after being resurrected.




That already happened at the first resurrection when all the dead in Christ did "rise first".

The dead in Christ "rise first" is linguistically related to the "first resurrection". Both are speaking of the same event.


first/G4413 resurrection/G386 is "protos anastasis"
Rise/G450 first/G4412 is "anistemi proton"

Proton and protos are related words that both mean "first". Proton is the neuter of the word protos. They are synonyms and are directly related words.

Anastasis was created from it's root word, anistemi. They are synonyms and are directly related words.

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Thessalonians was written to and about the church of the Body, i.e. Christians. They have nothing to do with the events in Revelation. They will have been caught up into the clouds to be with Jesus (1 Thes 4:7). Note that Jesus does not come to the earth at this time. He will come after the 7 year tribulation during which the beast reigns for the last half. Revelation is for Israel. It is the fulfillment of the promises made to them in the OT. The church of the body was a mystery hidden in God until revealed to Paul. His epistles are clear on that. We shouldn't mix up the church of the body with Israel.

Rich R said:

Thessalonians was written to and about the church of the Body, i.e. Christians. They have nothing to do with the events in Revelation.

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False. Paul wrote of endtimes prophecy regarding the resurrection etc.

Rich R said:

They will have been caught up into the clouds to be with Jesus (1 Thes 4:7). Note that Jesus does not come to the earth at this time.

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Also wrong. The clouds Are clouds of THE EARTH, so he leaves heaven and does come to the Earth at the rapture. He will descend lower to battle at Armageddon and all those from heaven and the raptured will follow him, and at some point he will set foot on the ground, which would be the time of the Millennium.

Rich R said:

He will come after the 7 year tribulation during which the beast reigns for the last half.

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The trib is 42 months, not 84 months and the beast rules the entire time.

Rich R said:

Revelation is for Israel.

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No, Israel (Atheists and Judaism) does not even read the NT, let alone Rev. Rev is for the church.

Rich R said:

It is the fulfillment of the promises made to them in the OT.

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Nope. All of that went away with the old covenant. The only promises are to those who are faithful, faithful to Christ. All who reject Christ are gentiles no matter what ethnicity they are.

Rich R said:

The church of the body was a mystery hidden in God until revealed to Paul. His epistles are clear on that. We shouldn't mix up the church of the body with Israel.

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There are two Israel's. One who is faithless and removed from the tree, and those who are faithful in Christ and are on the tree whether naturally or through grafting.

ewq1938 said:

Nope. All of that went away with the old covenant. The only promises are to those who are faithful, faithful to Christ. All who reject Christ are gentiles no matter what ethnicity they are.

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Bummer! I was looking forward to hanging out with lions and lambs.

Rich R said:

Bummer! I was looking forward to hanging out with lions and lambs.

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Sorry, that isn't in the bible either.

ewq1938 said:

Sorry, that isn't in the bible either.

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I did get it wrong. It's the wolf that will lie with the lamb. A few other currently unlikely friendships will also come to pass.

Isa 11:6,

But do you think those will be the only wild animals to be tame in the new earth? In any case, clearly none of this has happened (as well as bunch of other things in the prophets), despite the fact that God said over and over in the OT that they surely would.

Rich R said:

I did get it wrong. It's the wolf that will lie with the lamb. A few other currently unlikely friendships will also come to pass.

Isa 11:6,

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.​

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But do you think those will be the only wild animals to be tame in the new earth?

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I don't think the passage is literal, nor that animals will exist in the NHNE. I mean, what little child is leading in the eternity?

Rich R said:

In any case, clearly none of this has happened (as well as bunch of other things in the prophets), despite the fact that God said over and over in the OT that they surely would.

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Animals were created as helpmeets for man. I don't believe they are needed in the next world, likewise no need for childbirth or the helpmeet like Eve so no marriage.

ewq1938 said:

There are two Israel's. One who is faithless and removed from the tree, and those who are faithful in Christ and are on the tree whether naturally or through grafting.

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Correct. Maybe this will help:

Romans 11:25-27, Gods divine secret is how it will be only after all the chosen Gentiles are saved, John 15:16, will the remnant faithful Jews join as them one people again. As described in Ezekiel 37:15-27, Jeremiah 50:4-5, Isaiah 11:11-13
THEN: All Israel will be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He shall remove the wickedness from Jacob: For this is my Covenant I will give to them, when I take away their sins.

The quotation Paul uses is from Isaiah 59:20 The Lord will come as a Redeemer to Zion and to those in Jacob who repent of their rebellion…..
What Paul is referring to is: only a saved remnant of the Jewish people and all true Christians, who will constitute the Israel of God. His Overcomers for God.

The message to the individual Jew, is that he or she must “turn from transgression” to the Lord. There will be a few who will turn to him. All of them will be saved. He speaks of the saved remnant as Jewish Israel.
Are the Jews still God's people? No, the Kingdom was taken from them: Matthew 21:43, only those individuals who are both ethnic and spiritual Jews. Romans 2:29 Saved Gentiles have also been grafted into the tree and are now co-heirs of the promises of God to Israel. Romans 8:14-17

Paul says that it's all by God's grace... Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Romans 9:27
In other words, by grace through faith, plus or minus nothing, in the Lord Jesus Christ. Only through faith in Jesus can anyone be a child of God. Confirmed by:

Galatians 3:26-29, For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then are you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Clearly, Galatians 3:26-29 states that unsaved Jews cannot be Abraham's spiritual seed, nor are they heirs of the promises of God made to Israel in the Bible. The Bible is very plain on this subject that only born-again Christian believers of any ethnicity are heirs of the promises of God. Ephesians 2:11-18 True, righteous Christians from every race, nation and language are God's people; the Israelites of God.

There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ. So we can divide all humanity into one or other of these two groups:
1/ Every godless unbeliever including the non-Christian Jews and
2/ All Christian believers, Jews and Gentiles.; people from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9-10

God never blesses wicked evildoers. When the Jews rejected Jesus, God gave them into the hands of their enemies, as in 70 AD. Then, for continuing in their disbelief; the many pogroms and the Holocaust. Now they face the third swing of the Sword, Ezekiel 21:1-16

Romans 11:1-2 and 19-23, I say then, Has God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away his people which he foreknew…..You may say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and we Christians stand by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward you, blessing, so keep your faith: otherwise you also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they change their ways, shall be grafted back in: for God is able to graft them in again.

This Scripture plainly teaches that ONLY Jews who believe the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ will be grafted back into the tree as God's people. Jeremiah 12:14-16 proves this.
God cut off Judah in 586 BC for their continuous and stiffnecked rebellion against His Word, even killing the prophets.

God still loves His people, His true people who obey Him, and any Jew can be grafted back into the tree, but all Christ-rejecting Jews are NOT GOD'S PEOPLE. The Parable of the Vineyard shows how the ethnic Jewish people have lost their status. Matthew 21:33-46, Luke 19:27

Less than .025% of the Jews living in Israel today profess to be a Christian. Only a fool thinks that God loves the apostate, atheistic, gay pride, Christ rejecting Jews. These types are NOT God's people. Revelation 2:9

So only the saved Jews are part of God's people, Romans 2:29, but most are saved Gentiles, the descendants of Abraham by their faith. AND by possible/probable descent.
Only believers in Jesus Christ can claim to be heirs of the promises of God originally given to Israel, but are now applicable omly to every faithful Christian.

Isaiah 51:1-2 Listen all you who follow after the right and who seek the Lord…..Consider Abraham to be your father and Sarah your mother… I Blessed him, now his offspring are many.

ewq1938 said:

I don't think the passage is literal, nor that animals will exist in the NHNE. I mean, what little child is leading in the eternity?

Animals were created as helpmeets for man. I don't believe they are needed in the next world, likewise no need for childbirth or the helpmeet like Eve so no marriage.

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If these passages are not literal, who determines what the actually mean? Why couldn't I say the really mean that humans will co-exist with aliens from a star in the constellation Leo?

What do you see in the scriptures that makes you think there will be no animals in the new earth? If you read Genesis 2:19-20 very carefully, you should see that animals were decidedly not a help meet for him.

Once we start to make it allegorical, the only limit is one's own imagination. It's a fine story when take for what it says. No need to do anything other than take it for what it says.

Rich R said:

If these passages are not literal, who determines what the actually mean? Why couldn't I say the really mean that humans will co-exist with aliens from a star in the constellation Leo?

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That wouldn't be an interpretation issue though. You also avoided answering about the child that will lead...who is that? How could there be a child even exist in the NHNE? Clearly this is not about the NHNE, and animals being friendly when one was a predator would be an odd change, against their nature. Another identical passage says the serpent would eat dust, so not even actual food. Clearly these things represent complete peace, not literally these changes in animals.

Rich R said:

What do you see in the scriptures that makes you think there will be no animals in the new earth?

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The passage about the souls of animals going down while the souls of man go up and that no animals are described in the NHNE.

Rich R said:

If you read Genesis 2:19-20 very carefully, you should see that animals were decidedly not a help meet for him.

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No, they were still helpmeets but God decided Adam needed a helpmeet that was more personal, a human wife. The animals still were helpmeets for them. Animals are still used as helpmeets today.

Rich R said:

Once we start to make it allegorical, the only limit is one's own imagination. It's a fine story when take for what it says. No need to do anything other than take it for what it says.

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The bible uses literal and plain language, but also uses metaphors and symbolic language like beasts with multiple heads etc. Wisdom and instruction from the Holy Spirit guides people to know the difference. Let me know if you figure out who the child leader is in your idea of the NHNE.

ewq1938 said:

Let me know if you figure out who the child leader is in your idea of the NHNE.

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It's not complicated. A little child is a little child. I could quote any dictionary, but why bother? "Little" and "child" are well known words in the English world.

Rich R said:

It's not complicated.

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Apparently it is. Explain how there is a child in the eternal age when children no longer exist? Also, who is this leader child in the NHNE? Does Jesus have a miniMe?

ewq1938 said:

Apparently it is. Explain how there is a child in the eternal age when children no longer exist? Also, who is this leader child in the NHNE? Does Jesus have a miniMe?

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No, Jesus does not have a miniME.

Isaiah does not speak of a "leader child." It says a child will lead the animals. In our language there is a difference between the two phrases. If you recall, the animals in the garden of Eden ate fruit to live. There was no shedding of blood. But after the fall, animals did eat blood. It wasn't possible for a child to lead a lion without becoming lunch. The while Bible story is about getting back to the garden of Eden, i.e. the NHNE, so it will once again be possible for a child to lead a lion just like a child can lead around a dog in today's world.

I don't see anywhere that there will not be children in the NHNE. Isaiah seems to say there will be children.

As you corrector pointed out, there were some questions you asked that I didn't answer. I think I have at this point. But there are a couple of questions I asked you. I asked who determined the "allegorical" meaning of Isaiah 11:6. I also asked why I couldn't say it meant that humans will coexist with aliens from a star in the constellation of Leo. Any ideas on that?

Rich R said:

No, Jesus does not have a miniME.

Isaiah does not speak of a "leader child." It says a child will lead the animals.

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Same thing. Why would a child lead animals in the NHNE? Why would a child exist in the eternity? There are no marriages and all are immortal. Obviously the verse is not set in the NHNE.

Rich R said:

In our language there is a difference between the two phrases. If you recall, the animals in the garden of Eden ate fruit to live. There was no shedding of blood. But after the fall, animals did eat blood. It wasn't possible for a child to lead a lion without becoming lunch. The while Bible story is about getting back to the garden of Eden, i.e. the NHNE, so it will once again be possible for a child to lead a lion just like a child can lead around a dog in today's world.

I don't see anywhere that there will not be children in the NHNE. Isaiah seems to say there will be children.

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There are no children in the NHNE.

Rich R said:

As you corrector pointed out, there were some questions you asked that I didn't answer. I think I have at this point. But there are a couple of questions I asked you. I asked who determined the "allegorical" meaning of Isaiah 11:6.

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Maybe it is this child leader of animals in the NHNE you believe in.

Rich R said:

I also asked why I couldn't say it meant that humans will coexist with aliens from a star in the constellation of Leo. Any ideas on that?

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See above.