Arguments and comments on the Post Trib position

Spiritual Israelite said:

If people know what is being referenced when using that word, then it shouldn't be a problem to use it. Most people know what it means. It's a waste of time to quibble over what terms we use to describe our being gathered and caught up to meet the Lord when He comes.

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I disagree; I find that many brethren don't really understand when... a rapture is per God's written Word. Thus those are easily confused by those pushing a false pre-trib rapture. That's why I try not to use that word 'rapture', but "caught up" instead as written in the KJV Bible.

Spiritual Israelite said:

You're the one not reading it carefully enough. They are being gathered FROM heaven, not TO heaven.

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I see you are refusing to admit your mistake... I cannot make any more plain than I did:

Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

So why would you not tell the truth about that part above in BIG LETTERS of where to? Surely you are not blind to that above!?*@!??

Spiritual Israelite said:

Do you not think that Jesus's body was changed to be a spiritual body?

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At some point, YES, OF COURSE. 1 Peter 3:18-19 and 1 Cor.15:45 prove it...

1 Peter 3:18-19
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
KJV

That "By which" points back to the last clause of verse 18, with "but quickened by the Spirit". That means in order for Jesus to go and preach to the "spirits in prison", He had to go in a Spirit type body, because remember Paul in 1 Cor.15:50 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor can corruption (flesh) inherit incorruption (immortal spirit body).


1 Cor 15:45-46
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
KJV

I would have preferred that the KJV translators had put that word "spirit" with a capital to "Spirit", since that is pointing to Lord Jesus' resurrection type body being quickened back to a Spirit. (remember John 4:24, that "God is a Spirit.")

Spiritual Israelite said:

I am not saying the spiritual body we have is the like the flesh body we have today. Obviously, it will be very different. But, don't act like you know exactly how it will be already because...

1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.

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Wait a minute, God's Word reveals what our spiritual body will be like. It is written. Have you not read about it?

Rev 7:16-17
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb Which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
KJV

Isa 49:10
10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for He That hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall He guide them.
KJV

Rev 21:4
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV

Zech 14:8-9
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.
KJV

Ezek 47:6-12
6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
KJV

Rev 22:1-2
22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
KJV

Davy said:

I disagree; I find that many brethren don't really understand when... a rapture is per God's written Word. Thus those are easily confused by those pushing a false pre-trib rapture. That's why I try not to use that word 'rapture', but "caught up" instead as written in the KJV Bible.

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It depends on the audience. If they know what the word rapture means, then why not use it since that is what they are familiar with. There's no reason to get bogged down in semantics. Otherwise, if it's people that don't know what the word means, we can refer to believers being caught up to meet Jesus when He comes.

Davy said:

I see you are refusing to admit your mistake... I cannot make any more plain than I did:

Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

So why would you not tell the truth about that part above in BIG LETTERS of where to? Surely you are not blind to that above!?*@!??

Click to expand...

I made no mistake to admit to. You are making it plain that you have a reading comprehension problem. The elect are being gathered both FROM the earth and FROM heaven there. The extent of the earth that they are being gathered FROM is the uttermost part of it. The extent from which they are gathered FROM heaven is the uttermost part of it. I know you are capable of understanding what I'm saying here, but the question is whether or not you are willing to put aside your doctrinal bias so that you can understand and acknowledge it.

Davy said:

At some point, YES, OF COURSE. 1 Peter 3:18-19 and 1 Cor.15:45 prove it...

1 Peter 3:18-19
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
KJV

That "By which" points back to the last clause of verse 18, with "but quickened by the Spirit". That means in order for Jesus to go and preach to the "spirits in prison", He had to go in a Spirit type body, because remember Paul in 1 Cor.15:50 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor can corruption (flesh) inherit incorruption (immortal spirit body).

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At some point? What in the world does that mean? Do you think He didn't have a spiritual body after His resurrection when He appeared to over 500 people? If you don't think so, then you are proving that you don't actually understand the difference between a spiritual and natural body. The difference is given in 1 Corinthians 15:42-44, as I already showed you. A spiritual body is one that is incorruptible, immortal, glorious and powerful in contrast to the natural body we have now which is corruptible, mortal, dishonorable and weak. Do you not think that Jesus's body immediately after His resurrection was incorruptible, immortal, glorious and powerful like a spiritual body is?

Davy said:

Wait a minute, God's Word reveals what our spiritual body will be like. It is written. Have you not read about it?

Rev 7:16-17
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb Which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
KJV

Isa 49:10
10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for He That hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall He guide them.
KJV

Rev 21:4
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV

Zech 14:8-9
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.
KJV

Ezek 47:6-12
6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
KJV

Rev 22:1-2
22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
KJV

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Congratulations on completely missing the point. I didn't say we can't know anything at all about what it will be like. Why didn't you quote 1 Corinthians 15:42-44 which tells us our spiritual body will be incorruptible, glorious and powerful?

My point is that we can't really fathom what it will be like yet. We can read some things about it, but I'm sure there is more to it than even scripture reveals and it's something we can't fully comprehend or imagine yet. It would be disappointing if we could! That's why John said in 1 John 3:2 "it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.". Did you somehow miss when I quoted that? You should have know what I meant if only you had read that verse.

Keraz said:

NO RAPTURE
John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven.
John 17:15 ...I pray Father, you keep them from the evil one....
John 7:34...where I go you cannot come....
John 8:21-23....I am not of this world, you cannot go where I go....
Revelation 5:10....the saints will reign on earth....
ALL Words of Jesus that totally, utterly and completely refute the false and totally un biblical rapture theory.

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Re-Jn 7:34

Jn 13
33 Little children, I am with you [only] a little longer. You will look for Me and, as I told the Jews, so I tell you now, ‘Where I am going, you are not able to come.’

John 13:36
Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, where are You going?” Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow Me now; but you will be able to follow later.”

Jn 14
2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places. If it were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and I will take you to Myself, so that where I am you may be also. 4 And [to the place] where I am going, you know the way.”

rebuilder 454 said:

Lol
You just proved my point.
Thank you.




You guys work tirelessly to torture that bible to make it say something else.

Blame Jesus for telling you that AFTER THE TRIB angels gather FROM HEAVEN.

PSSSST .....THE SAINTS IN HEAVEN ARE GATHERED TO THE WHITE HORSES.
HOW DO YOU THINK THEY ARE CONGREGATED TO THAT LOCATION IN HEAVEN.

AHEM...ANGELS GATHER THEM ALREADY IN HEAVEN.
PRETRIB RAPTURE ONLY FITS

TELL IT TO JESUS.
I AM ONLY A REPORTER.

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When Christ comes the dead in Christ are raised up, so it is the resurrection and the LAST DAY of this world.
And is also the day of judgement on the last day

That is really hard to get around.
John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54
Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24
Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

John 12:48
He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him— the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

1 Thess 5
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [a]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The rapture in Mark 13 gathers those in heaven and those on earth, they all are reunited in Christ as He returns

The Coming of the Son of Man​

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His [h]elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Scott Downey said:

When Christ comes the dead in Christ are raised up, so it is the resurrection and the LAST DAY of this world.
And is also the day of judgement on the last day

That is really hard to get around.
John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54
Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24
Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

John 12:48
He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him— the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

1 Thess 5
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [a]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The rapture in Mark 13 gathers those in heaven and those on earth, they all are reunited in Christ as He returns

The Coming of the Son of Man​

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His [h]elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

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1) all rapture verses are pretrib.
2) the second coming verses are on white horses. That setting is OPPOSITE of the rapture verses.

So what do we do?
I do not do what you do and swipe them off the table, then address your opponent and say "see how correct I am"....." and don't look at the verses on the floor, they are irrelevant"

rebuilder 454 said:

1) all rapture verses are pretrib.
2) the second coming verses are on white horses. That setting is OPPOSITE of the rapture verses.

So what do we do?
I do not do what you do and swipe them off the table, then address your opponent and say "see how correct I am"....." and don't look at the verses on the floor, they are irrelevant"

Click to expand...

It is the same event, the rapture and the second coming. At Christ's return we have the resurrection, the rapture and the judgement all on the Last Day. The Last Day of this world, the next days are the eternal kingdom for the earth and the heaven.

It is what scripture says. And it is written right into the 'rapture' text. Happens as Christ is returning.

The Comfort of Christ’s Coming​

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

The Lord's return
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ
And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Rapture verse
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Therefore, the rapture occurs immediately after the resurrection of the dead as Christ returns from heaven.

And as Christ returns, we have the sudden destruction of the wicked described in the next chapter of 1 Thess 5

The Day of the Lord​

5 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.

2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be [a]sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

11 Therefore [b]comfort each other and [c]edify one another, just as you also are doing.

2 Thess , the judgement on the world is when Christ returns.

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

God’s Final Judgment and Glory​

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Scott Downey said:

It is the same event, the rapture and the second coming. At Christ's return we have the resurrection, the rapture and the judgement all on the Last Day. The Last Day of this world, the next days are the eternal kingdom for the earth and the heaven.

It is what scripture says. And it is written right into the 'rapture' text. Happens as Christ is returning.

The Comfort of Christ’s Coming​

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

The Lord's return
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ
And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Rapture verse
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Therefore, the rapture occurs immediately after the resurrection of the dead as Christ returns from heaven.

And as Christ returns, we have the sudden destruction of the wicked described in the next chapter of 1 Thess 5

Click to expand...

All rapture verses are pretrib.
I know you have been taught to ignore that.
You just say everything is mixed together.
Blenderized.

But no.
The bible says different

That is why EVERY postribber changes the virgins parable.

Scott Downey said:

2 Thess , the judgement on the world is when Christ returns.

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

God’s Final Judgment and Glory​

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

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Ahem
Read Rev 19.
That is the flaming fire return.
What you posted flows perfectly with the pretrib rapture doctrine.
Thanks for the pretrib rapture review

You are attempting to refute a doctrine that you know little about..

rebuilder 454 said:

All rapture verses are pretrib.
I know you have been taught to ignore that.
You just say everything is mixed together.
Blenderized.

But no.
The bible says different

That is why EVERY postribber changes the virgins parable.

Click to expand...

KUWN said:

The same event?
Reconcile the basic chart below. They don't seem to be the same event to me.
Each number on the top chart corresponds with the same number on the chart below.
I have posted this before but it is a good reminder of the differences between the Rapture and 2nd Coming:

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

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You do not believe in the Last Day then
The Last Day is the Day of the Lord

I ask you, when is the resurrection?
And where is it taught in scripture?
Do not use the book of revelation to obscure this.

KUWN said:

Which Resurrection?

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The resurrection of the dead.
Where is it in scripture?
Where is it mentioned in the gospels?

Scott Downey said:

You do not believe in the Last Day then
The Last Day is the Day of the Lord

I ask you, when is the resurrection?
And where is it taught in scripture?
Do not use the book of revelation to obscure this.

Click to expand...

No matter what "one obscure thought or verse" you have, they have never ERASED the rapture verses, and NEVER will.
There are 2 resurrections taught in scripture.
We know those in Chrisr are raised at the rapture. You somehow see some need to make all the several dynamics into one.
Your dismissal of the book of Rev proves you nave no intention of honest reconciling eschatology

Scott Downey said:

It is the same event, the rapture and the second coming. At Christ's return we have the resurrection, the rapture and the judgement all on the Last Day. The Last Day of this world, the next days are the eternal kingdom for the earth and the heaven.

It is what scripture says. And it is written right into the 'rapture' text. Happens as Christ is returning.

The Comfort of Christ’s Coming​

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

The Lord's return
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ
And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Rapture verse
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Therefore, the rapture occurs immediately after the resurrection of the dead as Christ returns from heaven.

And as Christ returns, we have the sudden destruction of the wicked described in the next chapter of 1 Thess 5

Click to expand...

Lol
So many verses with the setting depicted VIVIDLY.
You say all that is irrelevant????
The Holy Spirit put tge setting as OPPOSITE your doctrine

Spiritual Israelite said:

Do you not believe that the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven right now? John saw those souls of the dead in Christ in Revelation 6:9-11 and Revelation 20:4. Why do you assume that any reference to saints being in heaven refers to them having already been raptured?

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I believe all that.
After the pretrib rapture the dead in christ already in heaven recieve glorified bodies.

Ask yourself why it is necessary for all dead receive their bodies back at the GWTJ?

Scott Downey said:

2 Thess , the judgement on the world is when Christ returns.

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

God’s Final Judgment and Glory​

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

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But that "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns after the trib is NOT God's Great White Throne Judgment of the unsaved. Amills are wrongly taught to omit the Revelation 20 chapter where Jesus revealed starting on the day of His future return, He will reign over the unsaved for a "thousand years", with His elect, on the earth per Rev.5. And only then after... that "thousand years" will the unsaved be judged to destruction in the "lake of fire" along with Satan, hell, and death (Rev.20).

God's Word is a lot more detailed than what many think, even in The Old Testament Books.


In Isaiah 25, God through His prophet Isaiah revealed that at Christ's future return ALL... nations and peoples will have the veil of this present flesh world cast off...

Isa 25:1-9
1 O LORD, thou art my God; I will exalt Thee, I will praise Thy name; for Thou hast done wonderful things; Thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth.
2 For Thou hast made of a city an heap; of a defenced city a ruin: a palace of strangers to be no city; it shall never be built.
3 Therefore shall the strong people glorify Thee, the city of the terrible nations shall fear Thee.
4 For Thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

The above verses are about God's "consuming fire" that will burn man's works off this earth on "the day of the Lord", the day when Jesus returns in our near future (2 Peter 3:10-13; Hebrews 12:25-29).


6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."
KJV

Then the above verses are about the casting off of the flesh FOR ALL PEOPLE AND ALL NATIONS. It means the END OF THE FLESH DEATH OF THIS PRESENT WORLD. Only the "second death" of Revelation 20 will remain in that future time, and Apostle Paul covered all... of this in 1 Corinthians 15. The above verse 8 is even where Paul was quoting from about death being swallowed up in victory.

In 1 Corinthians 15:53-54, per the Greek, Apostle Paul used FOUR different Greek words to define the difference between the states of 'corruption', 'incorruption', 'this mortal', and 'immortality'. The unsaved when Jesus returns will NOT put on immortality, but will still be subject to the "second death" of being cast into the "lake of fire" after Christ's "thousand years" reign.

Thus many brethren are just not... paying attention to the details given in God's Word about all this, and instead like to create HALF-TRUTHS and run with them, arguing while showing their Biblical illiteracy.

KUWN said:

....
I have posted this before but it is a good reminder of the differences between the Rapture and 2nd Coming:

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

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Let's take a real Biblically literate look at that chart list then:

At The Rapture:
Firstly, there is no pre-trib rapture prior to the "great tribulation". Jesus showed emphatically in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that He comes AFTER the tribulation to gather His faithful Church. Apostle Paul showed this too in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (already covered by Scott in the above posts.)

1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
(My rebuttal: per 1 Thess.4:17 only those still alive on earth are "caught up" to Jesus in the "air". The Greek word for "air" can also mean the 'breath', which is also referred to in The New Testament to mean one's 'spirit'. Thus being "caught up" in the "air" is about Paul's idea of our being 'changed' to the spirit body on the day of Christ's coming.)

2. All believers are translated into new bodies
(Yes, but the unsaved will be translated to spirit bodies too, yet they will still be subject to the "second death", which is the death to one's spirit with soul in the "lake of fire", as written in Revelation 20.)

3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
(The Father's House which Jesus pointed to in John 14 is about the priest's chambers in the future Millennial temple that Jesus will build when He returns. It is recorded in Ezekiel 40 thru 47.)

4. There is no judgment on the earth
(There will... be a judgment upon the earth on the day of Christ's return. God's "consuming fire" will burn man's works off this earth, and the wicked will be judged, with some, like the kings who served Satan, will be cast into Satan's pit prison along with him, and be visited after Christ's "thousand years" reign (Isaiah 24:22). But that judgment when Jesus returns is NOT the FINAL JUDGMENT of the casting into the "lake of fire". No soul is destroyed until after Christ's "thousand years" reign with His elect, on earth.)


5. The Church will be in Heaven
(Not written. Christ's feet shall touch down upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem where He ascended to Heaven from per Acts 1. The Zechariah 14 chapter is specific on this, as He also will bring ALL the saints with Him there. Thus there is MORE Bible Scripture that gives more detail about Christ's return to this earth with His saints than just the 1 Thessalonians 4 Chapter. The being raptured to Heaven is a doctrine of men, from John Darby's Dispensationalist theory based on a false pre-trib rapture.)

6. It is an imminent occurrence
(Not written. That "imminent" idea is made up from men's false pre-trib rapture theory which implies that Jesus can return at 'any moment', when Lord Jesus instead gave us specific SIGNS of the end of this world leading up to His future return that we, His Church, are supposed to be 'watching'. We are not there yet, there are still events yet to happen today which Jesus and His Apostles warned us about. Those who do not know this cannot claim they are 'watching' like Lord Jesus commanded us to do. Those instead are spiritually drunken on men's doctrines, and follow men instead of listening to Lord Jesus in His Word.)

7. There are no signs preceding it
(That idea is not written either, but is simple babel. In Lord Jesus' Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13, Jesus gave SEVEN SPECIFIC SIGNS OF THE END for us to be watching, leading up to His future return AFTER the "great tribulation." Those SIGNS are also the SEALS of Revelation 6, so a parallel Bible study should be done with Jesus' Olivet discourse and Revelation 6.

Now the fact that KUWN would refer to there being NO Signs preceding a rapture suggests being familiar with Jesus' Olivet discourse that it does contain SIGNS about the End. It suggests to me a vain attempt to try and steer us away... from those SIGNS Jesus gave. Why would KUWN do that, or anyone on men's false pre-trib rapture theory? It is because of those SIGNS of the END Jesus gave reveals what to expect leading up to Jesus' future return, so we, His Church, will not be deceived!)


8. It affects believers only
(I assume KUWN is referring to being "caught up" to Jesus when He comes per 1 Thess.4:16-17. This is true, only those "caught up" to Jesus will be of His faithful Church. But ALL... peoples will be "changed" on that day of Christ's coming on the "last trump", as I have already shown here in a previous post about Isaiah 25 with death swallowed up in victory for ALL NATIONS and ALL PEOPLES.)

9. It is a time of joy
(For the saved of the "first resurrection" only. Per Ezekiel 44, all others will stand in judgment throughout Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect priests and kings. After the future "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect, a 2nd resurrection UNTO ETERNAL LIFE will happen for those who will convert to Jesus Christ DURING His future "thousand years" reign.)

10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
(Those on men's false pre-trib rapture doctrine do not understand that "Wrath" they often refer to from 1 Thessalonians 5:9 by Apostle Paul. Apostle Paul was pointing to the 7th Vial cup of Wrath God will pour out upon the wicked and deceived on the LAST DAY of this world when Jesus returns. It will involve His "consuming fire" that burn man's works off this earth, and melt the things of this present world, ending this present flesh world. Thus a proper... Bible study about that day of Wrath on the 7th Vial, 7th Trump, 7th Seal, reveals the end of Satan's beast kingdom of ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns, and those who ruled with him, meaning the end of the "great tribulation" time also.)

11. No mention of Satan
(Another babel confusion statement -- Revelation 20 reveals Satan will be locked in his pit prison during Christ's future "thousand years" reign which begins at His future return. Thus KUWN's false idea of no mention of Satan after the rapture-return by Christ is just a total LIE from men's false doctrines.)

12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
(No, it does not immediately happen on the day of Christ's return. Instead, it happens AFTER the "thousand years" reign by Jesus Christ and His elect, as written in Revelation 20. The Great White Throne Judgment of Rev.20:11-15 is when the unsaved are cast into the future "lake of fire" along with Satan, hell, and death, as written.)

13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
(The idea of Jesus' marriage supper in Revelation 19 is often taken way... out of context by the false pre-trib rapture crowd. The events of Revelation 19:1-9 all occur AFTER Christ's future return and defeat of the Babylon Harlot at the end. The false pre-trib rapture school instead tells lies saying that marriage happens PRIOR to the "great tribulation", and thus prior to the destruction of the Babylon Harlot. They lie, and God is not going to be merciful with those.)

14. Only Christ's own will see him
(Another direct LIE from the devils behind men's false pre-trib rapture theory. In Revelation 1:7 it says ALL EYES SHALL SEE CHRIST coming with clouds! HUWN saying just the opposite is direct evidence of listening to 'men', and not listening to Christ in His Word.)

15. The Tribulation begins
(The "great tribulation" happens first, with the "man of sin" that Paul warned us about appearing first, and setting himself up as God in a JEWISH stone temple in JERUSALEM built at the end of this present world. Christ's Church WILL GO THROUGH ALL THAT. Jesus returns to gather His faithful Church AFTER... that "great tribulation" like He said in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, which Apostle Paul also showed in 1 Thessalonians 4 when he mentioned the resurrection must occur first.)

(Continued...)

KUWN said:

....

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

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At the Second Coming:
(My Rebuttal: men's false pre-trib rapture theory likes to confuse the day of Christ's ONLY SINGLE TIME OF RETURN by falsely splitting into TWO TIMES, a false rapture of the Church to Heaven prior to the great tribulation, and then a return to earth with Jesus after the tribulation which they refer to as the second coming.

The reality per God's written Word is there is only ONE coming by Lord Jesus Christ in the future, and it will be on the day when the future resurrection happens, which per John 6:40 will only... occur on the LAST DAY of this present world. That 'day' God's Word also calls the "day of the Lord".)

1. Christ comes WITH his own
(That is another repeat of KUWN's main title about the second coming. Per Zechariah 14, Jesus' feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives at His future return, bringing all His faithful saints with Him there. That is the ONLY future coming by Lord Jesus. The 'asleep' saints are resurrected on that day first, and Jesus brings them with Him from heaven, and then those us still alive on earth are "caught up" to Him, and them, and immediately go to the Mount of Olives to begin His "thousand years" reign with Him, on earth, as written.)

2. No Translation of bodies
(KUWN is confused again. On the "day of the Lord", the LAST DAY of this present world when Jesus comes to gather His faithful Church that wait on Him, that day is when all the saints still alive on earth will have their flesh bodies 'translated', or "changed" like Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15. Changed to what? To the "spiritual body" that Paul explained in that chapter. So why... KUWN deny that written Scripture? The deceived wrongly think the resurrection is going to be to another flesh body, so some of them must also wrongly think their present flesh body will also continue forever, when that is not what God's Word teaches at all. When Jesus returns to gather His Church, the whole world will be done with their flesh bodies.)

3. resurrected saints remain on earth
(Man's false pre-trib rapture theory again believes in 2 comings, a false one before the tribulation when Jesus will rapture His Church to Heaven and wait for the tribulation to end. And then the other coming being Christ's second coming which is actually the ONLY coming God's Word describes. The saints will rule with Jesus on the earth, as per Rev.5, so the pre-trib rapture school had to come up with some excuse to address that. They try to with creation two separate comings by Lord Jesus, the first one which is not written.)

4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
(Yes, but not to the "lake of fire" just yet. When Jesus returns, He will separate His sheep (His Church) from the wicked goats (Matthew 25). Then Jesus with His elect will reign over those goats for a "thousand years", per Rev.20. After that "thousand years" reign, then the wicked will be judged in final either to a 2nd resurrection unto life, or to the "lake of fire".)

5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
(Yes, at His future coming, His ONLY future coming after the "great tribulation". It would be silly to think Jesus sets up His future Kingdom on earth prior... to the "great tribulation". Yet His setting up His future Kingdom on earth is an event mentioned in God's Word for His ONLY ONE COMING! That's a very easy sign that shows men's pre-trib rapture theory about 2 coming by Christ is false.)

6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
(Christ's Kingdom will come at the 7th Trumpet as written in Revelation 11:15. I'd almost bet KUWN didn't know that Rev.11:15 Scripture existed...

Rev 11:15
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."
KJV )

7. The are numerous signs preceding it
(There are SIGNS Jesus gave us in His Olivet discourse about the events to expect leading up to the day of His return. No man knows the day or hour of His return, but those SIGNS He gave us to watch put us in the 'watch' of the 'watchman' of the house, so we'd recognize when the thief tried to break in. And per Rev.16:15 on the 6th Vial, Jesus is still warning His faithful Church that He comes "as a thief". His coming is then on the next 7th Vial there.)

8. It affects all humanity
(No brainer.)

9. It is a time of mourning
(Not for Christ's faithful Church that will reign with Him. All the rest will be the mourners, especially the deceived Jews who love God, but rejected Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ-Messiah. Deceived Christian brethren will mourn Jesus also when they discover they fled to the false-Messiah instead of waiting... for the True Jesus Christ to appear. This is one of the strongest warnings by Lord Jesus and His Apostles for His Church living at the very end of this world. Will you remain faithful to Lord Jesus Christ and wait for His coming, or will you 'fly away' like a dead "carcase" to the false-Christ that will come first? (end of Luke 17 and Matt.24:28 about the first ones 'taken').

10. It occurs after the Tribulation
(Christ's ONLY future coming to gather His Church occurs AFTER the tribulation, like Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, which is a direct parallel to what Paul taught about the gathering of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4.)

11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
(Yes, men's false pre-trib rapture theory happens to agree with Bible Scripture on that, so no marvel that they don't reject all of God's Word.)

12. No judgment seat of Christ
(I don't know why KUWN would say that. There is... a Judgment Seat of Christ. (see 2 Cor.5:10) That happens when Jesus returns, as the house of God is judged first).

13. His bride descends with him to earth
(Wrong, because that assumes that the marriage already took place in Heaven, which is one of false pre-tribbers doctrines. The marriage supper with Jesus happens at the start of His Kingdom AFTER... the Babylon Harlot is destroyed. It will be a time when our righteous clothing is handed out. So that means we do not become His bride until AFTER... His return to the earth and we are with Him at the marriage supper, in new Jerusalem.)

14. Every eye will see him
(KUWN only says that now because of men's false pre-trib rapture idea of 2 comings by Christ, when God's Word speaks of ONLY ONE COMING on the LAST DAY of this present world.

In 1830s Great Britain, John Darby was first to preach the false pre-trib rapture in a Christian Church there, and early on in his preaching he claimed Jesus comes in 'secret' to rapture His Church prior to the great tribulation. The pre-trib rapture school later dropped that 'secret' idea off somewhat, but they still push it, as KUWN's belief on it shows with title no.14 in his Rapture section above).

15. The millennial reign of Christ begins
(Yes, at Jesus' ONLY ONE FUTURE COMING AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION, which is the 7th Trumpet, 7th Vial timing.)