If you are a son of God, come down off the TORTURE STAKE

TonyChanYT · Nov 23, 2023

New World Translation, Matthew 27:

40 and saying: “You who would throw down the temple and build it in three days,+ save yourself! If you are a son of God, come down off the torture stake [G4716 σταυρός]!”

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

an upright stake, especially a pointed one (Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophon).
a cross.

The Greek is ambiguous, New International Version:

and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!”

Was Jesus nailed on an I-shaped stake or a T-shaped cross?

There are clues that point to the latter. Thomas was skeptical in John 20:

25 Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

The T-shape cross required more than one nail.

A chapter later, Jesus prophesied the manner of Peter's death in John 21:

18 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands,

on the horizontal beam of the cross

and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go.” 19 (This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, “Follow me.”

This is the staurogram:

r/BibleVerseCommentary - If you are a son of God, come down off the TORTURE STAKE

It is a ligature composed of a superposition of the Greek letters tau (Τ) and rho (Ρ). Some 2nd-century manuscripts used the staurogram to spell G4716.

There are also artifacts from the Shroud of Turin:

There is evidence that the body once folded in the Shroud was the victim of a Roman crucifixion. Though used as a method of execution by the Persians, the Phoenicians, the Greeks, and other societies of antiquity, crucifixion in the Roman world was distinctive in a number of ways. Flogging invariably preceded execution and was usually carried out as the condemned proceeded to the crucifixion site; the victim was made to carry his own crossbar and was tied or nailed thereto and then hoisted onto a cross; or a T-shaped frame. Evidence in the Shroud image attests to each of these traits

Was Jesus nailed on an I-shaped stake or a T-shaped cross?

Lexically, σταυρός is ambiguous. However, there are some strong textual and physical evidences that point to the T-shaped cross.

Stumpmaster · Nov 23, 2023

TonyChanYT said:
New World Translation, Matthew 27:

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

an upright stake, especially a pointed one (Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophon).

a cross.

The Greek is ambiguous, New International Version:

Was Jesus nailed on an I-shaped stake or a T-shaped cross?

There are clues that point to the latter. Thomas was skeptical in John 20:

The T-shape cross required more than one nail.

A chapter later, Jesus prophesied the manner of Peter's death in John 21:

on the horizontal beam of the cross

This is the staurogram:

It is a ligature composed of a superposition of the Greek letters tau (Τ) and rho (Ρ). Some 2nd-century manuscripts used the staurogram to spell G4716.

There are also artifacts from the Shroud of Turin:

Was Jesus nailed on an I-shaped stake or a T-shaped cross?

Lexically, σταυρός is ambiguous. However, there are some strong textual and physical evidences that point to the T-shaped cross.

What does YT mean in your username?

TonyChanYT · Nov 23, 2023

Stumpmaster said:
What does YT mean in your username?

I was born in Hong Kong. My father named me Ying Tung. It means something like "should pass through" (with no problem). It probably has some kind of Buddhist significance.

ReChoired · Aug 8, 2024

TonyChanYT said:
New World Translation, Matthew 27:

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

an upright stake, especially a pointed one (Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophon).

a cross.

The Greek is ambiguous, ...

Not really - See APPENDIX 9 (page 526-550)- Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

tigger 2 · Aug 8, 2024

ReChoired said:
Not really - See APPENDIX 9 (page 526-550)- Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

.......................................................

We can find strong defenses of the Witness interpretation ('stake'). Even the highly regarded (by "orthodox" Protestants) New Testament scholar, W. E. Vine, in his An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 248, tells us that the so-called "cross" was really an upright pale or stake (without a crosspiece) and that an apostate Church finally, in an effort to please pagan "converts," allowed them to keep their pagan symbols, including a two-piece cross. Only then did the cross become a "Christian" symbol.

At the beginning of the third century Minucius Felix wrote to the pagans in Octavius and revealed the attitude that early Christians had toward the cross up to that time. He said: "Crosses, moreover, we neither worship nor wish for. You, indeed, who consecrate gods of wood, adore wooden crosses perhaps as parts of your gods.... Your victorious trophies not only imitate the appearance of a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it." (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 191) True Christians never revered the cross or regarded it as a symbol of true Christianity.

Note also what is stated in The Companion Bible, published by the Oxford University Press. On page 186 in the "Appendixes" it says: "Homer uses the word stauros of an ordinary pole or stake, or a single piece of timber. And this is the meaning and usage of the word throughout the Greek classics. It never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, but always of one piece alone. Hence the use of the word xulon [which means a timber] in connection with the manner of our Lord's death, and rendered tree in Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; Gal. 3:13; 1 Pet. 2:24. . . . There is nothing in the Greek N.T. even to imply two pieces of timber. . . . The evidence is thus complete, that the Lord was put to death upon an upright stake, and not on two pieces of timber placed at any angle." 1 Feb. 1968 WT, pp. 93, 94.

ChristinaL · Oct 31, 2024

tigger 2 said:
.......................................................

We can find strong defenses of the Witness interpretation ('stake'). Even the highly regarded (by "orthodox" Protestants) New Testament scholar, W. E. Vine, in his An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 248, tells us that the so-called "cross" was really an upright pale or stake (without a crosspiece) and that an apostate Church finally, in an effort to please pagan "converts," allowed them to keep their pagan symbols, including a two-piece cross. Only then did the cross become a "Christian" symbol.

At the beginning of the third century Minucius Felix wrote to the pagans in Octavius and revealed the attitude that early Christians had toward the cross up to that time. He said: "Crosses, moreover, we neither worship nor wish for. You, indeed, who consecrate gods of wood, adore wooden crosses perhaps as parts of your gods.... Your victorious trophies not only imitate the appearance of a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it." (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 191) True Christians never revered the cross or regarded it as a symbol of true Christianity.

Note also what is stated in The Companion Bible, published by the Oxford University Press. On page 186 in the "Appendixes" it says: "Homer uses the word stauros of an ordinary pole or stake, or a single piece of timber. And this is the meaning and usage of the word throughout the Greek classics. It never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, but always of one piece alone. Hence the use of the word xulon [which means a timber] in connection with the manner of our Lord's death, and rendered tree in Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; Gal. 3:13; 1 Pet. 2:24. . . . There is nothing in the Greek N.T. even to imply two pieces of timber. . . . The evidence is thus complete, that the Lord was put to death upon an upright stake, and not on two pieces of timber placed at any angle." 1 Feb. 1968 WT, pp. 93, 94.

Just totally wrong. History and archaeology even prove Jesus was hung on a cross.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Archaeology of the Cross and Crucifix

The sign of the cross, represented in its simplest form by a crossing of two lines at right angles, greatly antedates, in both the East and the West, the introduction of Christianity

www.newadvent.org

The initial OP had it right when he quoted

John 20:25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

NAILS, people, Not one nail above the head, two nails on outstretched arms.

Also consider in Exodus where God commanded lamb's blood to be put on the doorposts and lintel. This was a symbol of the bloody head and outstretched arms of Jesus on the cross.

keithr · Nov 2, 2024

ChristinaL said:
Also consider in Exodus where God commanded lamb's blood to be put on the doorposts and lintel. This was a symbol of the bloody head and outstretched arms of Jesus on the cross.

Also consider that the Israelites unknowingly acted out another type that pointed forward to Jesus’ crucifixion. In Number 2 [NRSV] God directs how the Israelites should camp:

1 The LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying:

2 The Israelites shall camp each in their respective regiments, under ensigns by their ancestral houses; they shall camp facing the tent of meeting on every side.

The chapter lists three tribes on each side of the tabernacle, with the Levites camping immediately around the tabernacle. It gives the total on each side [NIV]:

3 On the east, towards the sunrise, the divisions of the camp of Judah are to encamp under their standard.

9 All the men assigned to the camp of Judah, according to their divisions, number 186,400.

10 On the south will be the divisions of the camp of Reuben under their standard.

16 All the men assigned to the camp of Reuben, according to their divisions, number 151,450.

18 On the west will be the divisions of the camp of Ephraim under their standard.

24 All the men assigned to the camp of Ephraim, according to their divisions, number 108,100.

25 On the north will be the divisions of the camp of Dan, under their standard.

31 All the men assigned to the camp of Dan number 157,600.

So they were to set up camp with the tabernacle at the centre of the camp and with three tribes in ranks along each side of the tabernacle, extending out away from the tabernacle. Exodus 27:9-13 tells us that the tabernacle measured 100 cubits long (along the north and south sides) by 50 cubits wide (along the east and west sides) – a two to one ratio. Therefore, to measure the relative distance from the centre of the camp that the ranks extended, we should divide the numbers of the north and south sides by two. When we do that we realise that an aerial view would show the camp to be shaped like a crucifixion cross, with the foot of the cross facing east. This was many hundreds of years (about nine hundred years) before crucifixion was invented.

Windmill Charge · Nov 5, 2024

TonyChanYT said:
Was Jesus nailed on an I-shaped stake or a T-shaped cro

The point from the Romans side is that crucifixion was a prolonged agonising death that demeaned the victim. A stake with arms nailed over the head would have given a relatively quick death.

amigo de christo · Nov 5, 2024

ChristinaL said:
Just totally wrong. History and archaeology even prove Jesus was hung on a cross.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Archaeology of the Cross and Crucifix

The sign of the cross, represented in its simplest form by a crossing of two lines at right angles, greatly antedates, in both the East and the West, the introduction of Christianity

www.newadvent.org

The initial OP had it right when he quoted

John 20:25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

NAILS, people, Not one nail above the head, two nails on outstretched arms.

Also consider in Exodus where God commanded lamb's blood to be put on the doorposts and lintel. This was a symbol of the bloody head and outstretched arms of Jesus on the cross.

Yep . STICK to the bible my friend .

ChristinaL · Nov 5, 2024

amigo de christo said:
Yep . STICK to the bible my friend .

Even the Catholic Encyclopedia gets it right once in a while

ChristinaL · Nov 5, 2024

keithr said:
Also consider that the Israelites unknowingly acted out another type that pointed forward to Jesus’ crucifixion. In Number 2 [NRSV] God directs how the Israelites should camp:

1 The LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying:
2 The Israelites shall camp each in their respective regiments, under ensigns by their ancestral houses; they shall camp facing the tent of meeting on every side.

The chapter lists three tribes on each side of the tabernacle, with the Levites camping immediately around the tabernacle. It gives the total on each side [NIV]:

3 On the east, towards the sunrise, the divisions of the camp of Judah are to encamp under their standard.
9 All the men assigned to the camp of Judah, according to their divisions, number 186,400.

10 On the south will be the divisions of the camp of Reuben under their standard.
16 All the men assigned to the camp of Reuben, according to their divisions, number 151,450.

18 On the west will be the divisions of the camp of Ephraim under their standard.
24 All the men assigned to the camp of Ephraim, according to their divisions, number 108,100.

25 On the north will be the divisions of the camp of Dan, under their standard.
31 All the men assigned to the camp of Dan number 157,600.

So they were to set up camp with the tabernacle at the centre of the camp and with three tribes in ranks along each side of the tabernacle, extending out away from the tabernacle. Exodus 27:9-13 tells us that the tabernacle measured 100 cubits long (along the north and south sides) by 50 cubits wide (along the east and west sides) – a two to one ratio. Therefore, to measure the relative distance from the centre of the camp that the ranks extended, we should divide the numbers of the north and south sides by two. When we do that we realise that an aerial view would show the camp to be shaped like a crucifixion cross, with the foot of the cross facing east. This was many hundreds of years (about nine hundred years) before crucifixion was invented.
View attachment 51637

That's a good one, yes I remember hearing about that too

ChristinaL · Nov 5, 2024

Windmill Charge said:
The point from the Romans side is that crucifixion was a prolonged agonising death that demeaned the victim. A stake with arms nailed over the head would have given a relatively quick death.

It might have but the fact is it just didnt happen. the real reason why Jesus died much more quickly than they usually did was because His body was ripped to shreds by the lead tipped cat o' ninetails whip that was used on Him previously.

Aunty Jane · Nov 5, 2024

Can we understand that the instrument used to put the son of God to death is relatively unimportant unless we want to make an idol of it.
What was God’s command…..?
“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.” (NASB)

What part of “any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth” are many missing here? NO images were to be made that are used in worship…period!

Who can argue that the cross is an image used in worship?

It doesn’t matter whether it was any of the shapes that have been put forward…..it was Jesus’ death that paid the ransom….and the instrument used to kill him is irrelevant.

If Christ had been hung, would we now see a gallows on every church and one with Jesus swinging from a rope on Catholic churches?
If he had been executed in modern times by firing squad, would we have a rifle hanging around our necks? Or if it was a lethal injection…a syringe? How ridiculous do we have to get when the instruction from God himself was to “MAKE NO IMAGES”….?

Its a simple command….but one that humans cannot seem to obey.

The elephant in the room has been identified….do you see it?

ChristinaL · Nov 6, 2024

Aunty Jane said:
Can we understand that the instrument used to put the son of God to death is relatively unimportant unless we want to make an idol of it.
What was God’s command…..?
“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.” (NASB)

What part of “any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth” are many missing here? NO images were to be made that are used in worship…period!

Who can argue that the cross is an image used in worship?

It doesn’t matter whether it was any of the shapes that have been put forward…..it was Jesus’ death that paid the ransom….and the instrument used to kill him is irrelevant.

If Christ had been hung, would we now see a gallows on every church and one with Jesus swinging from a rope on Catholic churches?
If he had been executed in modern times by firing squad, would we have a rifle hanging around our necks? Or if it was a lethal injection…a syringe? How ridiculous do we have to get when the instruction from God himself was to “MAKE NO IMAGES”….?

Its a simple command….but one that humans cannot seem to obey.

The elephant in the room has been identified….do you see it?

Ok girl look while I think we can agree that the shape of the instrument of Jesus's death really doesnt matter, the fact is history, the bible and archaeology prove it was a cross- and if the JWs could be so horridly wrong about a relatively insubstantial matter- ask yourself What else could they be wrong about?

And no one among us makes the crucifix and idol

Windmill Charge · Nov 6, 2024

ChristinaL said:
It might have but the fact is it just didnt happen. the real reason why Jesus died much more quickly than they usually did was because His body was ripped to shreds by the lead tipped cat o' ninetails whip that was used on Him previously.

Jesus took several hours tob die. If he had been as thecJW's state suspended by his arms over his head he would have died in minutes.
One cannot pull oneself up with arms over ones head.

ChristinaL · Nov 6, 2024

Windmill Charge said:
Jesus took several hours tob die. If he had been as thecJW's state suspended by his arms over his head he would have died in minutes.
One cannot pull oneself up with arms over ones head.

He took 3 hours to die when people usually took days. Its as I said, He was already nearly dead before He was hung up

Windmill Charge · Nov 7, 2024

ChristinaL said:
He took 3 hours to die when people usually took days. Its as I said, He was already nearly dead before He was hung up

And if the iw were right he would have died in minutes.

amigo de christo · Nov 7, 2024

Windmill Charge said:
And if the iw were right he would have died in minutes.

though it was a typing error and the I was meant to be A J
the JW is of the I , the me myself and I .
the god of the mirror cannot save , not itself nor any other .

Ronald David Bruno · Nov 15, 2024

keithr said:
Also consider that the Israelites unknowingly acted out another type that pointed forward to Jesus’ crucifixion. In Number 2 [NRSV] God directs how the Israelites should camp:

1 The LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying:
2 The Israelites shall camp each in their respective regiments, under ensigns by their ancestral houses; they shall camp facing the tent of meeting on every side.

The chapter lists three tribes on each side of the tabernacle, with the Levites camping immediately around the tabernacle. It gives the total on each side [NIV]:

3 On the east, towards the sunrise, the divisions of the camp of Judah are to encamp under their standard.
9 All the men assigned to the camp of Judah, according to their divisions, number 186,400.

10 On the south will be the divisions of the camp of Reuben under their standard.
16 All the men assigned to the camp of Reuben, according to their divisions, number 151,450.

18 On the west will be the divisions of the camp of Ephraim under their standard.
24 All the men assigned to the camp of Ephraim, according to their divisions, number 108,100.

25 On the north will be the divisions of the camp of Dan, under their standard.
31 All the men assigned to the camp of Dan number 157,600.

So they were to set up camp with the tabernacle at the centre of the camp and with three tribes in ranks along each side of the tabernacle, extending out away from the tabernacle. Exodus 27:9-13 tells us that the tabernacle measured 100 cubits long (along the north and south sides) by 50 cubits wide (along the east and west sides) – a two to one ratio. Therefore, to measure the relative distance from the centre of the camp that the ranks extended, we should divide the numbers of the north and south sides by two. When we do that we realise that an aerial view would show the camp to be shaped like a crucifixion cross, with the foot of the cross facing east. This was many hundreds of years (about nine hundred years) before crucifixion was invented.
View attachment 51637

Always liked that hidden cross while looking at the camp of the 12 tribes of Israel from above - that only God could see but could also be drawn on a map.
Chuck Missler taught me that one way back in the 90's.
Anyways, the other key reason is this:
The Roman quick method of crucifixion (with a cross) was particularly effective because once a victim's legs were broken, they could no longer push themselves up to breathe, leading to death by asphyxiation (suffocation) as their body weight put pressure on their lungs, making it difficult to inhale properly; this is why executioners often broke the legs of crucified individuals to hasten death. If their hands were above them, as with a torture stake, even being nailed to it, they could pull themselves up. But nailed to a cross, you cannot!
THE word crucifixion comes from the Latin, crux, meaning cross.

amigo de christo · Nov 15, 2024

Windmill Charge said:
And if the iw were right he would have died in minutes.

never heed the iw or JW as you meant to type . They can never and will never be able to lead one to CHRIST .
but if i were to expose the camps of those who cannot lead one to CHRIST
Much of christendom would put me on a cross after whipping me bloody . We got no idea
what has taken over much of christendom . and it knows how to unify the dead to be as one
under it believing they are very much alive and heed GOD , yet it aint GOD .

If you are a son of God, come down off the TORTURE STAKE

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads